Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_Matt K
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Matt K » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:09 pm

I've had similar good experiences with pieces that go in a touch further than the normal 1". Makes me wonder if it wouldn't behoove me to get some Reeves sleeves and try some varying insertion depths. Or get some shaved down and use the teflon trick.  New rabbit hole...
ttf_tbarh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:45 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 15, 2016, 10:50AMIt's very interesting.... I thought my Elliotts had brought the mouthpiece game to an end... for me they totally work... I don't have to think about the mouthpiece element at all with them.
Now I pick up this old 1 1/2G that is a revelation to play... HOW is it so good ???? I cannot see any reason, but I will say this... the shank has been shaved down a little so it goes in more than usual... if I build up the shank so it sticks out the normal amount it is less impressive.... tiny details....
I have been checking other mouthpieces that I own and find that 2Gs are smaller in the throat than 1 1/2Gs, even though the catalog says they are the same....

Chris Stearn

Interesting thing about throatsize, Chris !  , according to the catalogue the same throat,backbore are used on a 6 1/2A through to the
1  1/4G .. The logic would be to adapt the throat/ backbore to match the cup/ rim...  I find  that the standard  backbore on the 1 1/2G  corporation blows to tight and will not let the sound bloom ( especially on my Holton).. I guess that they needed to cut down on productioncosts by simplifying..  On the other hand , modern makers (with the exception of  Doug Elliott ) insist on very open throats and backbores in comparison.. This will of course make them more easy to play, but may loose  the magic compared to the Mount Vernons.. Maybe the answer would be to experiment with smaller, more subtle changes in rim shape, throats and backbores with a standard Bach 1 1/2G as model , I dont know ? 

Trond

PS !  The Yamaha 58 which i use now has a slightly bigger throat/ backbore than a 2G which i think is balanced out with a slightly more heavy blank.. Small incremental changes , which maintain the generic 2G sound, but makes life easier  Image



ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:03 am

Well Trond, these things are never simple...
It seems to me that although Bach said that bores and backbores through most of the 'G' series were the same, they did in fact change... or is it just the 2G that was different ?
Free blowing is not a simple relationship with physical properties... my new 1 1/2G seems to have a smaller throat and backbore yet blows more freely than other examples with bigger bores and backbores, especially in the low register.  That seems to defy logic, but it is what it is.

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:26 am

Quotethe shank has been shaved down a little so it goes in more than usual...

Funny, In the late 70s I was foling around with different mpc:s, George Strucel helped me with different ideas, (some really crazy.) George told me about what George Roberts wanted him to do, he (GR) brought 5 Bach 1 1/2G mpc and asked GC to shave the all down a bit. When GR came back for the mpc:s he payed and tried all 5, he chosed one and through the other 4 in the vastebasket. As you probably know the George Roberts mothpieces has a thinner shank, goes further in to the leadpipe.
George made the same shank shaving for me, I played the piece for some years, it was a good piece. But latter I moved to a bit larger rim.
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:54 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Sep 17, 2016, 02:26AM
Funny, In the late 70s I was foling around with different mpc:s, George Strucel helped me with different ideas, (some really crazy.) George told me about what George Roberts wanted him to do, he (GR) brought 5 Bach 1 1/2G mpc and asked GC to shave the all down a bit. When GR came back for the mpc:s he payed and tried all 5, he chosed one and through the other 4 in the vastebasket. As you probably know the George Roberts mothpieces has a thinner shank, goes further in to the leadpipe.
George made the same shank shaving for me, I played the piece for some years, it was a good piece. But latter I moved to a bit larger rim.

Thank you Svenne for that interesting and important post. I have shaved shanks down in the past myself. Sam Burtis swears by it. Sometimes there is a big change, other times hardly anything. Those Roberts sig mouthpieces made in LA went in more than usual.... I would not want to risk spoiling a Mt Vernon piece but this one came ready shaved. It is perfect for my Holton.... pure luck I think.

Chris Stearn
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:18 am

Interesting post Svenne, I love to listen about George Roberts! Now, lets hope we all keep our "right mind" and dont shave down the shank on all our mouthpieces  Image I dont dear to do anything with mine. I did it once and never again.

As many say, the bach catalog is not to trust about measurement. My MT Vernon 1 1&2g have a slightly bigger throat than my regular 1 1&2g. And the MT Vernon 2g I sold had about the same hole as my MT Vernon 1 1&2g.

Trond, why do you like bigger throats? Is it really better or easier? My experience is not always so, but I cant say I know much about it? In fact I like more smaller throats, but as told, I dont really know about throat design.

Leif
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:40 am

I have heared that the GR leadpipe that George consistently used  throughout his career , had the venturi closer to the end of the shank and a a tighter venturi /bigger expansion meaning that shaving down the shank makes the transition between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe smoother.. Just an idea....
About going smaller in the throat/backbore still making a more open blow.. Maybe the feel of the blow has more to do with resonance and how much sound You can put out from a given amount of air , than how much air You can physically push through the horn.. In other words ; more compression  in the throat/backbore  can produce subjectively  a  feeling of more sound output which again gives a feeling of a more open blow.. Just another idea !
Finally, another factor apart from throat/backbore are weight .. A Bach 1 1/2G with a smaller throat /backbore can feel more open as the sound gets more intense which again ,can be perceived as beeing more open.. Add weight to the blank and You can open up the throat/backbore AND open up the blow... Change one factor , and You have to  change the others...

About creating the perfect mouthpiece, i think i'll pass thank You  Image

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:55 am

Quote from: savio on Sep 17, 2016, 08:18AMInteresting post Svenne, I love to listen about George Roberts! Now, lets hope we all keep our "right mind" and dont shave down the shank on all our mouthpieces  Image I dont dear to do anything with mine. I did it once and never again.

As many say, the bach catalog is not to trust about measurement. My MT Vernon 1 1&2g have a slightly bigger throat than my regular 1 1&2g. And the MT Vernon 2g I sold had about the same hole as my MT Vernon 1 1&2g.

Trond, why do you like bigger throats? Is it really better or easier? My experience is not always so, but I cant say I know much about it? In fact I like more smaller throats, but as told, I dont really know about throat design.

Leif

Leif, i am not favoring one throatsize / backbore over another,.. Ideally i choose a mouthpiece that sounds the best on a given horn , no matter what specs..  On the Conn 70 H i owned it was a 1 1/2G  ,  which i find too restrictive on my Holton 's ..  After some experiments  i have found that a Yamaha 58 works best ( until now at least ) on my Holton.. The specs on the Yamaha 58 are very  close to a 2G , but with a more manageable rim , a bigger throat ( but pretty standard backbore) and a slightly heavier blank.. I usually do not favor heavier blanks , but the ( slight ) increase in weight combined with the (slight) increase in throatsize makes an improvement on my Holtons ( tr 183 and  tr 180 ) , for me.... On these horns , anyway !

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:18 am

Quote from: tbarh on Sep 17, 2016, 08:55AMLeif, i am not favoring one throatsize / backbore over another,.. Ideally i choose a mouthpiece that sounds the best on a given horn , no matter what specs..  On the Conn 70 H i owned it was a 1 1/2G  ,  which i find too restrictive on my Holton 's ..  After some experiments  i have found that a Yamaha 58 works best ( until now at least ) on my Holton.. The specs on the Yamaha 58 are very  close to a 2G , but with a more manageable rim , a bigger throat ( but pretty standard backbore) and a slightly heavier blank.. I usually do not favor heavier blanks , but the ( slight ) increase in weight combined with the (slight) increase in throatsize makes an improvement on my Holtons ( tr 183 and  tr 180 ) , for me.... On these horns , anyway !

Trond

Well I have a 180. Hmmmmm
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:24 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Sep 17, 2016, 09:18AMWell I have a 180. Hmmmmm

 Image .... The 58  usually goes under the radar .. Too "accesible" and " un-sexy" ... A very good ,very well balanced piece in my opinion , ....if You can play bass with a 2G sized rim that is. !

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Torobone » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:55 am

Hmm, I still have my Holton 1 1/2G, circa 1970. I played it for 10 years in a Yamaha YBL-321, but it never fit as well as it could have had I gotten the shank trimmed. Rather ironically, I traded an MV 1 1/2G for it.

I'll save it as I have a line on another 321.
ttf_Dan Hine
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:21 pm

I have an older Holton 1.5g as well.  As far as smaller mouthpieces go, I prefer it over others I've tried with my 180.  I typically use something larger, though.  I don't have a scale but I would get that it's as heavy or heavier than a Bach 1.5g I have and definitely a larger throat.
ttf_Fridge
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Fridge » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:45 pm

Very cool Chris. I saw the piece for sale just when I saw your reply. I would've tried to get it if I didn't see your reply. Hope you are well.

Eddie Clark
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_hassein » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:58 pm

It's interesting,this idea of how far a mouthpiece fit's into a leadpipe. It's an old one that's now coming around again. Some of the great classic bass trombone sounds came from players using Bach(usually 1&1/2 G's)mouthpieces in Conn(Brown & Sharpe tapers). This combination almost always has the mouthpiece going further into the pipe. Some of the new Pipes that are supposed to be re-creations of classic pipes(I've bought a few)are way off as to how far a mouthpiece fits in. Ideas anyone?
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:10 pm

Thanks Eddie,
It was a bit of a scramble and I was lucky enough to be in the US at the time.... otherwise I would have been sound asleep when it was posted. I didn't expect it to be this good. The only shame is that I didn't get it years ago.... though perhaps I had equipment that was just as good and simply didn't realise it....

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_bonesmarsh » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:21 pm

Chris (Blast)--

There is a perfectly logical and reasonable reason for all of this rather non-scientific observation, and it is based on long lost pre-WWII Olds R&D.

The pre-war Olds bass bone mouthpiece was the Olds shanked #20. Sort of a cross between a bad 6 1/2AL and a bad 5G...neither, in fact.
The post-war model was the Olds shanked #21, which is neither a 1 1/2G, nor a 2G.

George Roberts was there for both.
George Roberts did a heap of R&D for Olds.
George Roberts would have eventually plugged a stock Olds mouthpiece into a non-Olds horn.
The shank would have gone far further into a Morse tapered lead pipe than a regular Morse taper mouthpiece.
As a result the throat would have been 3/8" CLOSER to the horn than a Morse mouthpiece, using an Olds shank mouthpiece.

George Roberts didn't just cook this stuff up out of thin air, he had access to a whole factory churning out Olds mouthpieces. I'm pretty sure he just had them cobble an Olds shank onto a Bach stock mouthpiece and then have the thing replicated.
He discovered the secret in the 1950s using pre-existing Olds R&D.

How do I know this?
Well, I've done it myself-- repeatedly.
I have a TIS S-23 from Los Angeles in '55 that has the double valves and stock Olds slide. And the stock mouthpiece in '55 was the wonky #20. I took a faxx 1 1/2G and put an Olds shank on it. Close, but not quite right.

My experiment with a stock Wick Heritage 2NAL:
I "Olds shanked" a Wick 2NAL. Cut 3/8" off the end of the shank. Used a file to very slowly turn down the shank until it was a vintage Olds shank. I left the thickness of the shank and venturi, backbore well enough alone,. Quite thick and chunky-- but it made the upper register sing like a #20 does.

So, what did I learn from a modified Olds 2NAL?
Drop the throat 3/8" closer to the leadpiepe and the trigger register and pedals feel the same. No observable or audible difference between the three registers--straight, trigger an then pedal. It is a monster all the way around.
Is there any evidence of the so-called "tightness" from the "smaller" valves? NONE.
Does a bass clef register B natural feel exactly like the same pitch played with double valves and the whole slide in Bb/F/Eb?? Yes. There is no difference in feel. The open horn feels like the double valve horn. I've proven it to my satisfaction playing the staff register  :line2:with the double valve horn alone.

George Roberts proved this in the 50s. You've rediscovered it again in 2016, Chris.
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:27 pm

Quote from: hassein on Sep 17, 2016, 02:58PMIt's interesting,this idea of how far a mouthpiece fit's into a leadpipe. It's an old one that's now coming around again. Some of the great classic bass trombone sounds came from players using Bach(usually 1&1/2 G's)mouthpieces in Conn(Brown & Sharpe tapers). This combination almost always has the mouthpiece going further into the pipe. Some of the new Pipes that are supposed to be re-creations of classic pipes(I've bought a few)are way off as to how far a mouthpiece fits in. Ideas anyone?

Good observation Don. I think that up to some point, Bach mouthpieces for large shank trombones were Brown & Sharpe taper as the default option... my NY 3 and my early MV 1 1/2G (actually it was yours) both seem to have a longer B&S shank and no markings to indicate that they are non-standard. Anybody know more ?

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:15 am

If You play a bass trombone with a generic GR leadpipe, it would probably be a worthwhile experiment to shave down the shank to fit further in replicating a brown & sharpe taper ( unless it is a priceless MV ) .. Does anyone here know  exactly how much further in the George Roberts mouthpeces fits into the receiver ? For instance the Kanstul or the Conn versions.. I have a couple  Yamaha 58 ' s to experiment with ( and my Holton tr 183 has a GR leadpipe ) .. Another question ; are the Kanstul and Conn GR pieces fitted with a Brown &Sharpe taper or a shaved down morse taper.. ?

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:41 am

Quote from: tbarh on Sep 18, 2016, 12:15AMIf You play a bass trombone with a generic GR leadpipe, it would probably be a worthwhile experiment to shave down the shank to fit further in replicating a brown & sharpe taper ( unless it is a priceless MV ) .. Does anyone here know  exactly how much further in the George Roberts mouthpeces fits into the receiver ? For instance the Kanstul or the Conn versions.. I have a couple  Yamaha 58 ' s to experiment with ( and my Holton tr 183 has a GR leadpipe ) .. Another question ; are the Kanstul and Conn GR pieces fitted with a Brown &Sharpe taper or a shaved down morse taper.. ?

Trond

I did this sort of shank shaving in the seventies and eighties.... wrecked almost as many mouthpieces as I did opening the throats. I would be very cautious about changing mouthpieces that work well in an effort to make them work even better.... it usually fails.

Chris Stearn
ttf_tbarh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:07 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 18, 2016, 05:41AMI did this sort of shank shaving in the seventies and eighties.... wrecked almost as many mouthpieces as I did opening the throats. I would be very cautious about changing mouthpieces that work well in an effort to make them work even better.... it usually fails.

Chris Stearn

I have a tool maker here who has been doing it succesfully for me before ( with a piece that was sticking out too much ) , so i will be able to  do it one step at a time.. Besides , i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! ) ,one of them a giveaway..  I will however do some research first; how much deeper fit , the difference between a morsetapered and a Brown & sharpe GR leadpipe etc.

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:40 am

Quote from: tbarh on Sep 18, 2016, 06:07AMI have a tool maker here who has been doing it succesfully for me before ( with a piece that was sticking out too much ) , so i will be able to  do it one step at a time.. Besides , i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! ) ,one of them a giveaway..  I will however do some research first; how much deeper fit , the difference between a morsetapered and a Brown & sharpe GR leadpipe etc.

Trond

This is like car directions: go down this road to the last house on the right... if you drive into the river you've gone too far...

To me, the key is your statement "...i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! )... "

I suspect there is more consistency in mouthpiece shank than in mouthpiece receiver/lead-pipe.  Drawing a pipe that will eventually taper in two directions from a carefully planned constriction some inches from the mouthpiece end has all kinds of opportunities for things to be off by a millimeter or ten.  Then, after the fact, measuring EXACTLY where in that constriction to set as the base point for setting rim depth... or, more challenging, distance between leadpipe constriction and mouthpiece throat...

I suspect that the best results will come from trial and error, using very consistent mouthpieces, and that those results will be pretty horn-specific (as in, shaving for a Conn 70h won't necessarily work well in a Holton 165, or perhaps even other Conn 70h's.)

I'd love to hear how your tool maker does HIS shaving.  I may have some to do for  a friend before too long, and method would seem paramount to exact matches of intended increases in insertion versus diametrical reductions along such a shallow taper!


ttf_tbarh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:26 am

Quote from: boneagain on Sep 18, 2016, 07:40AMThis is like car directions: go down this road to the last house on the right... if you drive into the river you've gone too far...

To me, the key is your statement "...i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! )... "

I suspect there is more consistency in mouthpiece shank than in mouthpiece receiver/lead-pipe.  Drawing a pipe that will eventually taper in two directions from a carefully planned constriction some inches from the mouthpiece end has all kinds of opportunities for things to be off by a millimeter or ten.  Then, after the fact, measuring EXACTLY where in that constriction to set as the base point for setting rim depth... or, more challenging, distance between leadpipe constriction and mouthpiece throat...

I suspect that the best results will come from trial and error, using very consistent mouthpieces, and that those results will be pretty horn-specific (as in, shaving for a Conn 70h won't necessarily work well in a Holton 165, or perhaps even other Conn 70h's.)

I'd love to hear how your tool maker does HIS shaving.  I may have some to do for  a friend before too long, and method would seem paramount to exact matches of intended increases in insertion versus diametrical reductions along such a shallow taper!



I think my tool man will do it with all  the precision neccessary.. The big question is as You mention to know how much to do ( or how long towards the river You should drive ) ..

The Kanstul GR mouthpiece comes with a ready shaved shank and is commercially available , expected to fit the infinite amount of specimen to specimen variation, of (in particular ) GR leadpipe equipped horns..  to copy that could be a starting point..  Image

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:58 pm

Today I wanted to see how fare down the GR mv copy goes in the lead pipe. And yes it goes farther down than a normal Bach 1 1/2g. So did the kanstul 1 1/2g. So that's maybe how George Roberts wanted them? Have you shaved down your 58 yet Trond?

Leif
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Post by ttf_tbarh » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:08 pm

Quote from: savio on Sep 19, 2016, 12:58PMToday I wanted to see how fare down the GR mv copy goes in the lead pipe. And yes it goes farther down than a normal Bach 1 1/2g. So did the kanstul 1 1/2g. So that's maybe how George Roberts wanted them? Have you shaved down your 58 yet Trond?

Leif

I am toying with the idea , but i am not in a hurry.. Need to know more about the Holton  GR leadpipe.. George used the same leadpipe in all of his signature horns wether it was with a Brown&Sharpe or a Morse taper.. Difficult to know if they were supposed to fit a standard or a shaved piece.. I tried a Conn 3B in it which worked very well.. I should really restrain my self a little because i am more satisfied with the equipment  i use now than i have been for a long timeImage

Trond
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:14 pm

I suspect that the leadpipe that George Roberts used in all the procession of horns he endorsed was one rescued from one of his early horns... probably a Conn 70H pipe.... but the various makers had their own take on their production models... don't assume that Roberts endorsed models had faithful copies of his pipe in production instruments.

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:25 pm

When you ordered a lead pipe from Larry Minick he would ask you what mouthpiece you played so what you had would fit into the lead pipe the appropriate length.
I have several Bach 1 and 1/2Gs that I'm not using-might start some experimental shaving.
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Post by ttf_Burgerbob » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:05 pm

My George Roberts Replica CE also has a pretty short shank.
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Post by ttf_blast » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:57 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Sep 19, 2016, 08:05PMMy George Roberts Replica CE also has a pretty short shank.

So it's a 'short-shank redemption'.... Image

Oh well, somebody had to say it... Image Image

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:57 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 20, 2016, 01:57AMSo it's a 'short-shank redemption'.... Image

Oh well, somebody had to say it... Image Image

Chris Stearn

this site really needs a good rofl emoticon...
but I'm glad YOU said it and not ME  Image
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:22 pm

So I found a Bach Corp. 1 and 1/2 with a shaved shank and slightly opened throat. Using it in my 180 right now. Low register is killing. Verdict out on overall results but it's interesting. It's in about 1/4 inch further than a typical 1 and 1/2.  More later.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:47 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Sep 22, 2016, 02:22PMSo I found a Bach Corp. 1 and 1/2 with a shaved shank and slightly opened throat. Using it in my 180 right now. Low register is killing. Verdict out on overall results but it's interesting. It's in about 1/4 inch further than a typical 1 and 1/2.  More later.

Interesting... what is frustrating is that there is no logical and measurable way of identifying a great mouthpiece..... not a good or workable mouthpiece... a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast.

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:43 pm

Quote from: blast on Sep 22, 2016, 03:47PMInteresting... what is frustrating is that there is no logical and measurable way of identifying a great mouthpiece..... not a good or workable mouthpiece... a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast.

Chris Stearn


All this talk about mouthpieces got my weak soul popping out my hidden box with 1 1/2g mouthpieces.  Image Image Image

I did the Sam (Sabutin) method, blind method. This method should also be used in different ensembles! I have done it many times. Every time the MT Vernon win. Even when listening old recordings, no doubt. I noticed when listening old practicing records, the flow of music, making phrases is always better with the Mt Vernon. But thats me. When I ask others, they dont listen any difference. Only if I change to a bigger mouthpiece. Its suddenly good, and then after some days, it still feels good, yes, but the sound is no bass trombone anymore. Its a blend of Horn, baritone, and tuba. All trombones should sound like a trombone, no matter if its an alto, tenor, bass or contra trombone 

Any way Chris,  "a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast."

The rare beast is our self.....   Image Image Image

Leif


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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:35 am

I should post a small health warning...
This Mt Vernon 1 1/2G thing is, as Leif says, about sound.
If you like a classic bass sound, they are great.
They will not help you make the 'modern American' sound.... whatever that really is.
The good ones also feel like nothing else.....

Back to subject.

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:15 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 23, 2016, 01:35AMI should post a small health warning...
This Mt Vernon 1 1/2G thing is, as Leif says, about sound.
If you like a classic bass sound, they are great.
They will not help you make the 'modern American' sound.... whatever that really is.
The good ones also feel like nothing else.....

Back to subject.

Chris Stearn

Hmmm... I'm getting a little more forgetful with each passing decade (of mine) or handful of pages (of this thread)... but I don't recall such a neat, direct tie back to the original topic (who... right mind... 1 1/2G.)

Has anyone in all these pages suggested he or she can get this 'modern American sound' with a 1 1/2G?  Perhaps the "right mind" that picks 1 1/2G is exactly the kind NOT after that sound?

When my job required me to stand out more by big, solid-cored, high-volume sound, I used a Stork in the Schilke 60 rim range, with a throat I could throw large pencils through.  When I got to where I could play what I WANTED to play, I could best bring out the added color that the 1 1/2G size got for me.

I am intrigued by the MV findings above.  In my case, I found 1 1/4G too big for just the right color, and 2G too small. "Goldilocks" factor (i.e. "just right") happened in 1 1/2G variants.  Considering how many variants were supposedly MV copies, and that only the Rath 1 1/2BW really "does it" for me, I find the search for just the right original dangerously alluring  Image

But, alas, I do not have a helpful daughter, like Leif has, who will bury my collection for me, and help stop the madness  Image

Still... a great MV... Duo Gravis.... that's what the horn was designed for... I wonder...
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_anonymous » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:01 am

Hi people!

Last week (after trying to read all the 77 pages of this post unsuccessfully...), I got a Bach 1-1/2G from a friend and, as you can imagine, I got in love with it inmediately!
I tried it about 5 years ago, and I couldn't play a single note right, but now... I might be a better musician Image

The low range isn't a problem, the high range is sooooo easy. The only problem I find is that with my bass trombone combination (Edwards B454: 10" red/lightest bell, light slide, B3 leadpipe) I have the feeling that it won't match very good on the trombone/tuba section... It feels too bright to me. Last night I had a jazz gig and for that it was great! But big orchestra programs... not sure yet...

So, my question is. Do you guys have large equipments to compensate? Dual bore slides, heavy bells, etc.
When I bought my Edwards I was playing on a Stork 1 heavy, but I always felt that with other lighter pieces (Schilke 59-60, Griego .75 Deco, DE XB114,L,L8, Bach 1-1/4, etc. ) the sound tends to get too brassy too soon. That's cool for those times when the conductor asks me to make a hole in the wall of the theater (or at least doesn't complain about it Image Image). I think heavy mouthpieces aren't a good choice for me, because the sound doesn't have any color (or it isn't interesting, quoting Chris).

Thanks!

J
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:30 am

Quote from: karexobasstrombone on Sep 29, 2016, 04:01AMHi people!

Last week (after trying to read all the 77 pages of this post unsuccessfully...), I got a Bach 1-1/2G from a friend and, as you can imagine, I got in love with it inmediately!
I tried it about 5 years ago, and I couldn't play a single note right, but now... I might be a better musician Image

The low range isn't a problem, the high range is sooooo easy. The only problem I find is that with my bass trombone combination (Edwards B454: 10" red/lightest bell, light slide, B3 leadpipe) I have the feeling that it won't match very good on the trombone/tuba section... It feels too bright to me. Last night I had a jazz gig and for that it was great! But big orchestra programs... not sure yet...

So, my question is. Do you guys have large equipments to compensate? Dual bore slides, heavy bells, etc.
When I bought my Edwards I was playing on a Stork 1 heavy, but I always felt that with other lighter pieces (Schilke 59-60, Griego .75 Deco, DE XB114,L,L8, Bach 1-1/4, etc. ) the sound tends to get too brassy too soon. That's cool for those times when the conductor asks me to make a hole in the wall of the theater (or at least doesn't complain about it Image Image). I think heavy mouthpieces aren't a good choice for me, because the sound doesn't have any color (or it isn't interesting, quoting Chris).

Thanks!

J

Well a 10" light bell flare is not helping you. Spreads quicker and the lightness can hurt as well.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:46 am

karexobasstrombone I agree with you about heavy mouthpieces. Generally sound a bit more dead. However I have found that in a more lively horn, like my TR 180, the Stork regular weight 1.5 that I have sounds nice. But my horn is easier to color than my Bach 50BG2 and the Stork 1.5 sounds dead-no color whatsoever.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:36 am

I've tried many 9,5" bells, and I still didn't find any that makes a positive difference... They all sound too tenor-like (not only behind the bell) on me. I also tried the new B502-I and I felt the same... I think I should get a heavier bell, that's all... I was also thinking about having mine customized with a screw rim to add some weight (useful for planes too), but I'm scared of destroy it for good...
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:32 am

Quote from: karexobasstrombone on Sep 29, 2016, 07:36AMI've tried many 9,5" bells, and I still didn't find any that makes a positive difference... They all sound too tenor-like (not only behind the bell) on me. I also tried the new B502-I and I felt the same... I think I should get a heavier bell, that's all... I was also thinking about having mine customized with a screw rim to add some weight (useful for planes too), but I'm scared of destroy it for good...

Too many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.
If you don't like that kind of sound, step away from the old Bach mouthpiece.
You need a massive mouthpiece and a modern instrument.
That's fine.
I have a new student... after his first lesson, he may be confused... Big, heavy modern trombone and mega mouthpiece.... that sound diffuse and light next to my old Holton and Bach 1 1/2G..... when he decides how he really wants to sound, the tools may change.... or they may not...
We all hope to find our sound grail....
Happy searching.

Chris Stearn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_ronnies » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:24 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 30, 2016, 01:32AMToo many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.

I remember having season tickets for the RSNO in the early 80's and being in awe of the trombone section but particularly the bass trombone.

Ronnie
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:52 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 30, 2016, 01:32AMToo many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.
If you don't like that kind of sound, step away from the old Bach mouthpiece.
You need a massive mouthpiece and a modern instrument.
That's fine.
I have a new student... after his first lesson, he may be confused... Big, heavy modern trombone and mega mouthpiece.... that sound diffuse and light next to my old Holton and Bach 1 1/2G..... when he decides how he really wants to sound, the tools may change.... or they may not...
We all hope to find our sound grail....
Happy searching.

Chris Stearn



I understand your point, and I agree 100% with you. I never understood why people keep saying big (or small, just the other side) is better. I just look for a change because it's getting more and more difficult to reproduce the sound I hear in my head. Probably this sound concept is changing and that's why all this craziness... Image
 
Before I played on Bach 50 and I was totally in love with it, but I needed to change because the tuning of the horn was real hell (even after cutting a piece of tube...). I never had problems to focus on that horn, and it had a 10,5" bell. The same with the Edwards. I think my sound has a lot of core (both in pppp and ffff), but I'm looking for something that keeps the sound under control in the fff dynamics. That's basically it...

I wasn't even looking for a mouthpiece change (I play on DE XB114,L,L8 and I'm very happy with it), it's just I was surpirsed how good this mouthpiece was, but still not sure if it is good enough for what I need on my actual set up. Just curious how other people does it Image
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:45 am

This is tangential to the topic of the 1.5G, but I suspect with the horn your playing, an L9 shank might be closer to what you're looking for. The various shanks really do make a difference, and while he says that the 9 is geared towards dual bore instruments, I find that they also work with horns that are otherwise considered "big" in comparison to what others play. Worst case scenario, you decide you don't like it and send it back to Doug and go for something else.  You're also playing on the most "open" of the pipes that Edwards offers.  Some combination of perhaps a slightly "tighter" leadpipe and shank that matches the rest of the horn more might be a better suit for you than trying pieces that have a heavier weight. At least that's been my experinc.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:02 am

This is actually a good idea. When I play tighter leadpipes, the sound get even more compact, but I find that it breaks earlier... I might need to practice me fff instead  Image

I never thought about trying the L9 because I thought I would have to work extra on the focus and projection and it would need more air supply, and I'm just looking to keep it easy (don't we all?  Image). But I might try.

Back on topic, I was just wondering if people playing 1.5G size pieces to sound amazing they also have some kind of standard set up (mine isn't, or so I think). Of course the gear doesn't make a player (only hard pratice does), but I believe that if your equipment doesn't let you share the ideas you have in an easy way, then some adjustements on your set up would be needed.
Again, I might need more pratice (who doesn't, right?)  Image
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:16 am

Quote from: karexobasstrombone on Sep 30, 2016, 08:02AMI never thought about trying the L9 because I thought I would have to work extra on the focus and projection and it would need more air supply, and I'm just looking to keep it easy (don't we all?  Image). But I might try.
With some horns, it's exactly the opposite.  A bigger backbore (up to a point...) makes everything easier.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:13 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Sep 30, 2016, 08:16AMWith some horns, it's exactly the opposite.  A bigger backbore (up to a point...) makes everything easier.

hmmmm intersting... PM Doug! Image
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:46 am

QuoteThis is actually a good idea. When I play tighter leadpipes, the sound get even more compact, but I find that it breaks earlier... I might need to practice me fff instead  Pant
When you say it "breaks" earlier I'm assuming you mean the 'red line' for when you're playing loudly goes into edge sooner.  I'm very familiar with that distinction as I straddled that line very closely for a lot of the time I've been playing. I'm not familiar with the offerings of Edwards, but I know that I find the longer pipes from Shires to help with that.  I also find sterling silver pipes to offer a bit more density that keeps the redline from happening but still keeps the sound interesting. (This may also be due to the fact that sterling pipes are a little longer than yellow pipes with both companies)  That said, I know several Edwards players who really seem to like the sterling silver offerings. One forum member here indicated awhile ago that it was the difference between a black & white TV vs a color TV in terms of sound between yellow and silver.  YMMV, but if you're at a convention it might be worth investigating.  They're expensive, but the additional expense has seemed worth it to me.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:02 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Sep 30, 2016, 11:46AMWhen you say it "breaks" earlier I'm assuming you mean the 'red line' for when you're playing loudly goes into edge sooner.  I'm very familiar with that distinction as I straddled that line very closely for a lot of the time I've been playing. I'm not familiar with the offerings of Edwards, but I know that I find the longer pipes from Shires to help with that.  I also find sterling silver pipes to offer a bit more density that keeps the redline from happening but still keeps the sound interesting. (This may also be due to the fact that sterling pipes are a little longer than yellow pipes with both companies)  That said, I know several Edwards players who really seem to like the sterling silver offerings. One forum member here indicated awhile ago that it was the difference between a black & white TV vs a color TV in terms of sound between yellow and silver.  YMMV, but if you're at a convention it might be worth investigating.  They're expensive, but the additional expense has seemed worth it to me.

Yeah, I mean that... it never really get ugly (i think), but it's very easy to blow everyone heads off,which is cool sometimes, but not everytime of course... it's kind of the last two Fs in pini di roma in Fantasia 2000 sound, by CSO (obviolsy I'm comparing myself with Charlie Vernon! That would be just silly...). I might just need to keep my hormones under control Image   ImageImage

I'll check the silver pipes in an Edwards distributor in Holland next month, thanks for the tip!

And thanks to everyone for all the usefull inputs! Image (sorry if my coments got too off topic, i just didn't think it was worthy to create a new post about gear and the Bach 1.5)
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:11 pm

Quote from: karexobasstrombone on Sep 30, 2016, 12:02PMYeah, I mean that... it never really get ugly (i think), but it's very easy to blow everyone heads off,which is cool sometimes, but not everytime of course... it's kind of the last two Fs in pini di roma in Fantasia 2000 sound, by CSO (obviolsy I'm comparing myself with Charlie Vernon! That would be just silly...). I might just need to keep my hormones under control Image   ImageImage

I'll check the silver pipes in an Edwards distributor in Holland next month, thanks for the tip!

And thanks to everyone for all the usefull inputs! Image (sorry if my coments got too off topic, i just didn't think it was worthy to create a new post about gear and the Bach 1.5)

I don't think you're going to get much pushback on this forum asking for advice on your equipment, we (I?) have a hard enough time not giving unsolicited advice.  Image On the contrary, you'll probably be deluged with more opinions than you'd like.

I will add one final thought, and that is that you might not actually be redlining as much as simply playing very loud. Sometimes it can be hard to tell from behind the bell. I've occasionally been surprised to find that my sound was appropriate when I thought I was being perhaps too forthcoming with edge. With equipment as large as you're playing on, you might be surprised to find that 'smaller' equipment which gives the appearance of brightness (what some refer to, I think, as an "interesting sound") but is actually quieter in terms of overall volume might actually yield less of a "red line" and project further into the audience.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_karexobasstrombone » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:41 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Sep 30, 2016, 12:11PMI don't think you're going to get much pushback on this forum asking for advice on your equipment, we (I?) have a hard enough time not giving unsolicited advice.  Image On the contrary, you'll probably be deluged with more opinions than you'd like.

I will add one final thought, and that is that you might not actually be redlining as much as simply playing very loud. Sometimes it can be hard to tell from behind the bell. I've occasionally been surprised to find that my sound was appropriate when I thought I was being perhaps too forthcoming with edge. With equipment as large as you're playing on, you might be surprised to find that 'smaller' equipment which gives the appearance of brightness (what some refer to, I think, as an "interesting sound") but is actually quieter in terms of overall volume might actually yield less of a "red line" and project further into the audience.

I heard that same comment many times before, maybe i should start listening...
Smaller equipment= less effort= more presence in the audience= brighter sound feedback 
it's just it feels wrong when you hear your principal trombone playing with a huge sound while mine is smaller (from behind the bell at least).

Thanks for the thoughts! I'll keep trying to find the holy grial hehehe
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:16 pm

Quote from: karexobasstrombone on Sep 30, 2016, 12:41PMI heard that same comment many times before, maybe i should start listening...
Smaller equipment= less effort= more presence in the audience= brighter sound feedback 
it's just it feels wrong when you hear your principal trombone playing with a huge sound while mine is smaller (from behind the bell at least).

Thanks for the thoughts! I'll keep trying to find the holy grial hehehe

I think you are thinking wise thoughts !

Really great equipment teaches you things... the other stuff keeps you asking questions....

Chris Stearn
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