DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

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ttf_Conn88hagmann
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Conn88hagmann » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:06 am

For years I’ve used a DE 101 rim with cups from bach and Schilke threaded to fit.

The 4G and 3G cups I use have a slight underbite as the cup is slightly too big to fit flush with the rim.

I don’t get on with the Elliott Cups and I find them to “bright” for what I’m trying to achieve sound wise. Although they are superb in the high register. This is on a large bore.

Is that underbite going to effect articulation? I find other mouthpieces “ring” a little better, the Wick 4.5 being a good example, but I don’t find anything as comfortable as the 101 rim.


Any ideas?


ttf_Doug Elliott
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:37 am

The chances are you have an LT rim and the other mouthpieces are closer to XT size.  You'd probably like mine in the XT series, and I  have made some changes in my current cups so they have a fatter sound and less of the brightness you object to.

The undercut situation is not a real big problem, but an XT rim would either eliminate it or go a little too far the other way.

"Underbite" usually refers to a protruded jaw, which is a different situation entirely...
ttf_Conn88hagmann
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Conn88hagmann » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:19 am

Thank you Doug.

Yes of course the underbite “jaw” issue isnt what I mean.

Would an XT rim fit the same thread?  I am indeed using the LT series. I have loads of them. 6 101 Rims and 3 H cups, G+, two  G’s two F’s  a D, and a C. Do you do part ex!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

That’s not including the Bach’s and Schilke I have cut to take them.
ttf_Doug Elliott
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:08 am

Yes, LT and XT use the same threads.
ttf_Matt K
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:22 am

I have a little experience with what you're talkign about --- where the rim is smaller than the inner diameter of where the threads end on the cup. For those who may be reading this who still don't quite get what is being talked about, this is when you'd be say an LT rim on an XT cup.  The LT has a smaller inner diameter than the XT rim where the cup meets the rim.  The opposite, say an XT rim on an LT cup you'd have the cup having a larger inner diameter where the rim meets.  In the case of the former you can't really feel much of a difference unless you cram your lips into the piece. In the case of the latter, especially with a lexan rim, you can feel the difference. The former can work fine but the latter really is annoying. At least that is my experience.

I have some experience with extremes in series. My main tenor rim is an XT104N, but I also have an ST104N and a EUPH 104N and some limtied experience with the LT104N size.  However, I don't have the same cups for all of them.  I have an ST C+; XT C, XT E, XT G; Euph K.  

When I compare on a small bore with an ST104N/C+/C3 vs XT104N/C/C3 --- which is very similar but not totally similar, I find that the XT series is more 'open' and with more flexibility. I also have slightly more endurance on the XT series. However, I have a lot more focus and the high range speaks a little more evenly on the ST series. And the sound is a lot more bright... or perhaps shiny. All terrible words to describe sound, but words I've heard used to describe sound by many others nontheless so potentially a good descriptor afterall.  Again, part of that is probably due to the cup difference but I have no way of teasing out what that difference may be.

When I compare the XT104N/G/G8 to the Euph104N/K/K8, I have a similar experince with these, although I'm sure a lot of the difference is exaserbated even more by the cup depth.  The XT series is brighter than the Euph series and has more focus.  High range is both cleaner and more even on the XT series vs. the Euph series.  The Euph series is a lot more broad sounding as well. Again, cup depth probably is playing a major role on both of these fronts so it's difficult to tease out to what extent those differences are attributable either way.

I've also owned an LT series piece, though it was a long time ago, I noticed a similar trend. The XT was more broad sounding than the LT, and offered greated flexibility timbrally and in terms of intervals.  That came at the trade off of some of the focus.

In short, I'd echo doug's recommendation for XT series. Hopefully my terminology was useful... I really don't like using words to describe sound such but it is, I suppose, the only way to convey something like this over text.  It may well give you some additional breadth of sound that you get from the 4G or 3G cups you have.  You might lose some of the high range focus but I've found that my endurance is better up there and I have better control over the timbre anyway so for me it's more-or-less an absolute advantage with the exception of small bore or alto playing where I want less options timbrally and basically want bright/cutting. Especially for say, lead bone.  


ttf_Doug Elliott
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:08 am

That's an excellent description. Can I steal it for my website?
ttf_Matt K
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:17 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 26, 2018, 10:08AMThat's an excellent description. Can I steal it for my website?

I think the appropriate term in the music world is 'borrowing'.  Image

(But really, feel free to use it.)
ttf_Doug Elliott
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:21 am

I thought you were going to say "You call that a website?"
ttf_Conn88hagmann
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Conn88hagmann » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:59 am

Thanks so much for such a great description. Il find and XT 101 then!!


Quote from: Matt K on Jan 26, 2018, 08:22AMI have a little experience with what you're talkign about --- where the rim is smaller than the inner diameter of where the threads end on the cup. For those who may be reading this who still don't quite get what is being talked about, this is when you'd be say an LT rim on an XT cup.  The LT has a smaller inner diameter than the XT rim where the cup meets the rim.  The opposite, say an XT rim on an LT cup you'd have the cup having a larger inner diameter where the rim meets.  In the case of the former you can't really feel much of a difference unless you cram your lips into the piece. In the case of the latter, especially with a lexan rim, you can feel the difference. The former can work fine but the latter really is annoying. At least that is my experience.

I have some experience with extremes in series. My main tenor rim is an XT104N, but I also have an ST104N and a EUPH 104N and some limtied experience with the LT104N size.  However, I don't have the same cups for all of them.  I have an ST C+; XT C, XT E, XT G; Euph K.  

When I compare on a small bore with an ST104N/C+/C3 vs XT104N/C/C3 --- which is very similar but not totally similar, I find that the XT series is more 'open' and with more flexibility. I also have slightly more endurance on the XT series. However, I have a lot more focus and the high range speaks a little more evenly on the ST series. And the sound is a lot more bright... or perhaps shiny. All terrible words to describe sound, but words I've heard used to describe sound by many others nontheless so potentially a good descriptor afterall.  Again, part of that is probably due to the cup difference but I have no way of teasing out what that difference may be.

When I compare the XT104N/G/G8 to the Euph104N/K/K8, I have a similar experince with these, although I'm sure a lot of the difference is exaserbated even more by the cup depth.  The XT series is brighter than the Euph series and has more focus.  High range is both cleaner and more even on the XT series vs. the Euph series.  The Euph series is a lot more broad sounding as well. Again, cup depth probably is playing a major role on both of these fronts so it's difficult to tease out to what extent those differences are attributable either way.

I've also owned an LT series piece, though it was a long time ago, I noticed a similar trend. The XT was more broad sounding than the LT, and offered greated flexibility timbrally and in terms of intervals.  That came at the trade off of some of the focus.

In short, I'd echo doug's recommendation for XT series. Hopefully my terminology was useful... I really don't like using words to describe sound such but it is, I suppose, the only way to convey something like this over text.  It may well give you some additional breadth of sound that you get from the 4G or 3G cups you have.  You might lose some of the high range focus but I've found that my endurance is better up there and I have better control over the timbre anyway so for me it's more-or-less an absolute advantage with the exception of small bore or alto playing where I want less options timbrally and basically want bright/cutting. Especially for say, lead bone.  



ttf_Matt K
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DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:40 pm

To throw fuel on the fire that is the confusing mess that is mouthpieces... you might want to also find an XT101N or maybe something a touch larger.  My experience is that in addition to the series differences, the N series gives me more flexibility. Again, with respect to timbre and intervals.  Slurs are way easier for me on a 104N than a 104 as well as a 104N vs. a 103N. Though the difference is a little less pronounced between the 104N and 103N than between the widths.  YMMV, of course.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 26, 2018, 10:21AMI thought you were going to say "You call that a website?"

CSS is overrated  Image
ttf_Matt K
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

DE Mouthpieces. Is an underbite an issue?

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:40 pm

To throw fuel on the fire that is the confusing mess that is mouthpieces... you might want to also find an XT101N or maybe something a touch larger.  My experience is that in addition to the series differences, the N series gives me more flexibility. Again, with respect to timbre and intervals.  Slurs are way easier for me on a 104N than a 104 as well as a 104N vs. a 103N. Though the difference is a little less pronounced between the 104N and 103N than between the widths.  YMMV, of course.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 26, 2018, 10:21AMI thought you were going to say "You call that a website?"

CSS is overrated  Image
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