mouthpiece for duo gravis

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ttf_shoy
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_shoy » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:39 am

My Morse taper bass mp's go into the slide receiver on my newly acquired Duo Gravis up to a much greater degree than would seem "correct." Do I need a Remington shank bass mp to optimize this horn's potential? A King 29 seems to fit properly.
Stephen
[url=mailto:hoy127@cox.net]hoy127@cox.net[/url]
ttf_BGuttman
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:45 am

There were some King shanks that were a little larger than standard taper.

Doug Elliott makes a special "King" shank which has a dot next to the taper.  He gave me those and I found they stuck out just a little too much on my King 7B (maybe mine is from a period where they went back to standard).

If everything works OK, just play it.  No harm will come to you or the horn.  It does NOT take a B&S taper mouthpiece; that will ruin the leadpipe.

If you are really freaked out by the mouthpiece going in so far, put a wrap or three of Plumber's Teflon Tape on the shank.  May have to replace it from time to time.
ttf_Matt K
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Matt K » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:14 am

Some mouthpieces fit better than others on it. I have one with a newer receiver but I tried one that had your receiver and the only piece that I owned that worked on it was an Elliott (not his special kimg receiver though). I'd either get one of those or do the Teflon thingBrucementioned. Even if it seems to work as-is it might be worth trying out Teflon tape. Can make a huge difference to have a piece sit in the receiver and seal well
ttf_wgwbassbone
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:14 pm

When I was playing a Duo Gravis I was using a Stork 1.5. Fit and worked great.
ttf_boneagain
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_boneagain » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:38 pm

Quote from: shoy on Sep 20, 2017, 09:39AMMy Morse taper bass mp's go into the slide receiver on my newly acquired Duo Gravis up to a much greater degree than would seem "correct." Do I need a Remington shank bass mp to optimize this horn's potential? A King 29 seems to fit properly.
Stephen
[url=mailto:hoy127@cox.net]hoy127@cox.net[/url]

That leadpipe is designed to have the end of the mouthpiece come within 1/8" of a "step" in the leadpipe. The idea was that, acousitically, it would appear as a continuous taper from the inside of the backbore to the start of the venturi.  On the Duo Gravii I've seen a "standard" Bach 1 1/2G will go in about 1/2" more than in, say, a Bach 50B.

So, bend the end of a paperclip into an "L" with the bottom of the "L" short enough to fit into the mouthpiece hole, then feel along down there to find how far down the step is.  If you are between 1/16" and 1/8" past the end of where the mouthpiece ends, you are fine.  More than that and you may have the wrong taper.  Less and you might bottom out and that would be problematic.

Don't expect a Duo Gravis to do much like other horns.  It was a very successful greenfield design.  The bell was not derived from any other prior bell, but worked out by art and physics by George McCracken.  BTW: George is a horn player... take special note of his treatment of the F slide on your horn Image
ttf_Doug Elliott
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:15 pm

King large shank tenors and bass trombones like the Duo Gravis often (but not always) have a receiver that is larger than the standard size, and a little different taper.  That's why I make my "King" shank.  King mouthpieces usually fit, but others are too small and go in too far.
ttf_Terraplane8Bob
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Terraplane8Bob » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:54 pm

With the use of a caliper, I measured the inset of the leadpipe of my King Duo Gravis at 1.4".  Much to my surprise, the exact same dimension is the inset of the leadpipe on my King 2108 [8B].  I recently decided to try a "Wedge" mouthpiece and ordered a stock 1G in Delrin.  I really liked the mouthpiece concept and the feel of the Delrin but noticed that it didn't correctly abut the leadpipe in either horn.  So --- I decided to order a second "Wedge 1G" and to specify an exact diameter at the insertion point and exact length of the shank so that it would match the leadpipe exactly.  Did it work ?  Dr. Dave matched my specifications perfectly and the result, though not huge, provided noticeably more predictable and consistent results.  I later used a highly technical device to hone the shank of the first 1G down just enough so that it also abutted the leadpipe in both horns. [OK! --- I used sandpaper --- one of the benefits of owning a plastic mouthpiece!].  I think that this little exercise is like so many "tweaks" used   to improve the results of blowing air through a brass tube --- if you are in top shape, you'll notice the change caused by slight modifications to your equipment.  If you're not in top shape ?  Cheers to all ----  Bob
ttf_bonesmarsh
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_bonesmarsh » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:24 pm

Bob-

I also used the very scientific sandpaper on my Wedge delrin 1G to make it fit a vintage 1955 Olds S-23. Then I screwed a brass garden hose fitting onto it to make it the heavyweight version for another $2.42.
ttf_Terraplane8Bob
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Terraplane8Bob » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:06 pm

Dog-Gone-It !!  I "sprung" for the big bucks "Tone Modifier" !  I should have known that somebody out there would have come up with a way around the factory-approved system !  Seriously --- the "Tone Modifier" is very effective and can add another tweak to our arsenal.  Worth every penny !   Cheers !!   
ttf_boneagain
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_boneagain » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:31 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Sep 20, 2017, 04:15PMKing large shank tenors and bass trombones like the Duo Gravis often (but not always) have a receiver that is larger than the standard size, and a little different taper.  That's why I make my "King" shank.  King mouthpieces usually fit, but others are too small and go in too far.

You bring up an important point, Doug: not all Duo Gravis receivers are the same!  The ORIGINAL design was SPECICALLY built around a Mount Vernon 1 1/2G.  At some point after that initial design and early runs, something changed.  Doesn't matter who did it: just matters to make sure the tapers match! (... and that the end of the mouthpiece goes in close enough to the shelf in the receiver.)
ttf_jpwell
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_jpwell » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:33 pm

So the step in my DG is 1.5" down from the mouthpiece hole. All my mps I use end between an 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, or 9/32  from the step. So the only ones that I should use are the 1/8 gap ones. My fav is a Yeo but it has a 1/4 in gap.
ttf_BGuttman
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:32 pm

Wait a minute.  Does the Yeo play OK?  Or are you spec'ing yourself into a problem?

If it plays OK but has a 1/4" gap who gives a d**n?  If it's not quite working right then maybe you need to sand down the shaft a mil or two so the gap is 1/8".  But be warned: you can easily take metal off but you can't easily put it back.
ttf_jpwell
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_jpwell » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:37 pm

yeo is an air hog on the dg
ttf_boneagain
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_boneagain » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 pm

Quote from: jpwell on Sep 20, 2017, 08:37PMyeo is an air hog on the dg

Have you tried it on other horns?  If it is not an airhog on other horns, and you don't mind rendering it unfit for use on other horns, you could sand as Bruce suggests.  Me being me, that makes me shudder... I'd rather see adjustments made with the thing chucked up in a lathe... but again, that's just me. 

Having that gap too wide CAN interfere with getting the standing waves set up inside the horn, and THAT can require more air and effort.  The spec is not there for the sake of the spec. It is there because George McCracken tried different distances and found one that Alan Raph liked.  And Alan Raph was VERY clear that his main concern was for this horn to be easy to play.  Alan did not want to know about the technology and science: he wanted the instrument to WORK, and work HARD.  He trusted George to handle the tech side.

BTW: there is a similar thing in "standard" large bore trombone leadpipes.  It looks to the naked eye like the big fat edge of the backbore just drops off into the receiver.  In most horns the taper continues in past the end of the mouthpiece.  The "implies" a continuation of the backbore slope to the acoustical system.  IMHO this is a reason why several notable players on this forum find such noticeable differences when they wrap teflon tape around their mouthpiece shanks: they improve the relation between this implied taper and the venturi in the leadpipe. 
ttf_Torobone
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Torobone » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:46 pm

The Duo Gravis is an older horn. It played better for me on a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece. After playing a lexan Kelly 1 1/2G, I moved to a Wick Heritage 1 AL.

It might be the players in my area, but the folks that play a Yeo in a DG sound woofy. They live for that one low D that sounds great, but they are not playing with the section.
ttf_wgwbassbone
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:09 am

Alan Raph, the person who helped design the Duo Gravis with King, always played on a 1 and 1/2G mouthpiece.
ttf_jpwell
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_jpwell » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:50 am

I play the Yeo on a Yama 611 also and it works great. Must be the gap. On the mp search again i guess. Thx
ttf_Doug Elliott
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:54 am

A Duo Gravis needs a different kind of energy input than the Yeo can deliver.  The gap is not likely to be the correct explanation, it's a mismatch of design styles.
ttf_boneagain
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_boneagain » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:07 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Sep 21, 2017, 07:54AMA Duo Gravis needs a different kind of energy input than the Yeo can deliver.  The gap is not likely to be the correct explanation, it's a mismatch of design styles.

 Image

I'm going to use that one next time "someone" notices I've got my pivot backwards, upside-down, and cockeyed: "I'm not trying to be difficult... I just do a different kind of energy input..."

and then I'll do just as "someone" recommended and be very happy with the results.

Regarding design styles: I'm 99% certain that jpwell could make his DG sound like the Yamaha 611, but it would be wrong, and take a LOT of energy and concetration. 

As several people here have noted: the DG was designed SPECIFICALLY with a MV Bach 1 1/2G in mind... Alan Raph's in particular.  The best starting point for getting the most out of the DG is to try one of those.  After a trial period it would be prudent to search for a rim that fits the face properly and a cup/throat/backbore that make that rim behave much like the 1 1/2G. 

Yes, I have heard of folks blasting away with Schilke 60's and Laskey 95's.  There are easier ways to get THAT sound if it REALLY is the sound you want. 

BTW: I happened to have my DG and nearly brand new iGaging OriginCal caliper with clamp-on foot right by the desk.  I measured the depth of the step in my horn with foot against the receiver and the depth rod on the step (1.450") and set that to origin.  Then I used the step measurment on the back side of the caliper and measured from the end of the MP backbore to the insertion point.  On my Rath B1 1/2W I get about 3/16" of gap between the inserted MP and the step.  On my Fergusson V, modern Bach 1 1/2G, and Kelly stainless I get about 1/16".  A Laskey 85 gets about 1/8". The Rath works better in my DG than any of the others. They are all great mouthpieces.

ttf_Dukesboneman
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Dukesboneman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:18 pm

We had one at the school I taught at... I found out that you cannot use a Bach Megatone
ttf_jpwell
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_jpwell » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:26 pm

I will be hunting for a MV 1 1/2 G energy making device. Thx. Yes it would take lots of my effort to get the Yeo DG combo to should like the Yeo Yama combo. point taken
ttf_greenbean
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_greenbean » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:22 pm

The DG (1972?) I had came with the original King 29.  Fit perfectly and played well.  But it REALLY played well with an older 1.5G.  The fit was not perfect but close enough.  Great horns...
ttf_Catastrophone
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Catastrophone » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:48 am

I've always found my DG plays better with larger mouthpieces. With me behind it the sound is far too hard and direct with a 11/2 or 2 size mouthpiece. I found the Ferguson L a great match for it.

The DG definitely has particular mouthpieces it doesn't like though. Older Schilkes with the long backbore work great. The newer short ones don't centre properly without a bit of tape round them. As already mentioned the Yeo feels very mismatched, and in general anything with a large throat doesn't work well.
ttf_jbeckett
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_jbeckett » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:02 pm

my $.02.  Get with Doug on the shank.  Wicks USED to fit well, but they no longer do.  I played wicks on Duos, kings, benges and the like, but found that the proper fit is Doug's king shank. Roll with that. 
ttf_Ormsby
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Ormsby » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:41 pm

Giaedinellii 1G just fits and worked great for me in all ranges. A little more work in the low range to get around but was good in upper register, which opens up opportunities for more types of gigs.
I actually had mine slightly bored out but it was pretty close to the 1G.

Ernie Pattison,

Boss Brass, Toronto,, Canada
ttf_Ormsby
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mouthpiece for duo gravis

Post by ttf_Ormsby » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:41 pm

Giaedinellii 1G just fits and worked great for me in all ranges. A little more work in the low range to get around but was good in upper register, which opens up opportunities for more types of gigs.
I actually had mine slightly bored out but it was pretty close to the 1G.

Ernie Pattison,

Boss Brass, Toronto,, Canada
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