Thoughts on "Day-to-Day Mouthpiece" vs. "Solo Mouthpiece"

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

(this is sparked by some of the other very interesting mouthpiece threads that are going on right now, and my own very conservative experiments in changing up mouthpieces for different kinds of playing)

It is clear, to me at least, that the "one mouthpiece for everything" theory is really not going to get a trombonist everything they want out of every situation. To immediately and somewhat obviously prove my point, we only need to look to the issue of playing a small bore trombone in an idiom appropriate for it vs. a symphonic large bore in an orchestral setting. Two very different sounds, and two very different mouthpieces -- even if the rim is exactly the same on both.

But those are two very different kinds of playing. What about playing that is sort of similar, and something a lot of college students / music grads could relate to? For example, playing a very demanding trombone concerto (like the T-Bone Concerto by DeMeij) vs. playing first trombone in an orchestra? Conventional wisdom would say that using different mouthpieces for each is counterproductive. Most teachers would probably (and very conservatively) suggest that their student stick to the 5G or the 4G for both situations. I want this to be true, as a teacher, and as a player who wants to practice what he teaches. But...

I'll just use myself as an example. I have really found everything that I need out of a mouthpiece with the Griego Alessi 1C and the large bore tenor. I use it in brass quintet. I play bassoon parts on it in woodwind quintet. I use it on first or second trombone for concert band and wind ensemble. I do almost all of my practicing on it, diligently. I can play any concert, chamber recital, etc on this mouthpiece, and I want to do so because it produces a fantastic, compact, but complex sound. But to make it from page one to page ten on a solo work like T-Bone Concerto or Mackey's "Harvest" Concerto (really, just the second movement) on that kind of setup without worrying about getting tanked, or energy management, or a chipped note ... it's enough to drive you nuts. Sure, it's doable, especially when I'm really working up to be in shape for it, but it's kind of stressful and that takes away from the music. It's enough to make you want to scream at the Joe Alessis, the Christian Lindbergs, and the Ian Bousfields of the world. But it also gets one thinking about how it is they do what they do.

Well, I thought about it. I've seen Christian Lindberg perform a 30 minute work live, with the most altissimo playing imaginable, and having played his mouthpieces for a long time in the past, I think I know why he is/was able to do what he does. An insane amount of practice, and a mouthpiece that is designed for only playing solos. The CL mouthpieces are basically designed to do a few things really well: 1. Project, 2. Be easily colored, 3. Favor the upper register, 4. When played without a lot of pressure, drastically increase endurance.

Surely Joe Alessi uses the "daily workhorse" Griego 1C when he plays solo engagements? From what I saw, that's not the case. The day before he played the Rouse Concerto in Fort Collins, we saw his master class, and got to hear him play and talked to him. He definitely had some other, older, non-Griego mouthpiece in his horn, and from what I could see when we were sitting and chatting, it was an awful lot like the Griego 1A that I've got now. Big rim, shallow cup, large throat. And he was playing on it that day because he was going to use it the next night to play the very demanding, altissimo, and chop buster of a piece by Rouse. Hmmm...

I haven't heard Bousfield play live, but he too has a specific solo mouthpiece that follows the same kind of pattern as above. It has the same rim he always plays on, and a shallow V cup with a bit of a larger throat on it.

Swallowing my pride and my ideas, and with a lot of worry that playing the 1A would just blow my chops and ruin everything I've worked so hard to achieve, I have begun to practice solo pieces that I want to keep in my repertoire on the 1A. And the results are pretty interesting. First of all, to warm up on a solo mouthpiece is kind of a let down. I always work on some low lip slurs with the F attachment as the first notes of the day, and these just do not sound as good as the self-proclaimed "daily workhorse" 1C. They sound good, probably even great, but the 1C just flat out sounds better in the lower register. I have also found that I have to change some things with the way my horn is set up to favor a bit of a darker sound on the 1A, which can get really brilliant. So, as far as pure sound goes, the day to day piece sounds better and more complex to my ear than the solo piece, but playing them for colleagues has given the following kinds of comparisons "They both sound similar, but the solo piece sounds more open. It projects more" and "the workhorse mouthpiece sounds more compact to my ear". In other words, nobody really thinks one sounds better than the other.

Does the solo mouthpiece actually work? Yes. I have to put in less effort, especially in the upper register. The dreaded Mackey Concerto's second movement, which is basically just long tones above a high Bb with nowhere to breathe for the entire movement is not nearly as demanding. The upper register all sounds much clearer and brilliant as well. Also, it is far easier to articulate on this solo mouthpiece. And so far, I haven't seen any ill effects when I switch back the the 1C. If anything, it just feels like returning back home.

I think I am going to continue to use a solo mouthpiece whenever I am working on solo literature, but I don't think I'll keep warming up on it on those days -- I'll always get a good warm up in on the 1C, and all my daily routines will be done on the 1C as well. The tradeoff in the lower register in terms of overtones and complexity is far outweighed by how easy and fun it is to play in the upper register and also to be able to not get tired during the most demanding pieces that I have on my shelf.

I'd be curious to hear what others think about this concept. It's pretty new to me. Hopefully Doug can offer his thoughts on using different cups/shanks from his system for different literature as well. When I saw how many mouthpieces there were in the Alessi series, I thought it was kind of like having too much choice, and I still think that even the artists themselves probably only use two or three of their own pieces out of a series. But I think I see the point. When you can't afford to miss that high F at the end of the piece in front of 3000 people, I can definitely see why you'd want a mouthpiece that would help make that happen, perhaps at the expense of complexity in the lower register.

[ttf_Matt K]

That basically sums up my approach as well, although I tend to put Orchestra playing in as just general ensemble playing (as I don't play in an orchestra basically at all anymore)  . I tend to default to whatever the shallowest piece I can still get the sound I want in a given context.  A lot of times that means just using a shallower piece for everything. When I'm in with other instruments, I'm usually not playing a bass part... and if I am, I"m using a bass trombone with a deep cup anyway. When I'm playing with trumpets/saxes/basically anything that isn't a bass voice the shallower pieces work very well for me. 

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

I match the rim to my face ( 104N for tenors mostly, and 114 for basses mostly ), the shank to the horn/leadpipe, and the cup to the ensemble or accompaniment.

COULD I do ALL my small bore playing on my most often played set up? Sure. And bass trombone? Sure. But why sound and behave like a soloist when my equipment could help me fit between a sax and trumpet more easily? Why sound like a massive modern bass trombone when it's a more traditional dance band and I could be playing a much smaller mouthpiece and horn on 3rd?

Just enough equipment to let me dial it in within my abilities and not so much that it gets complicated.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Exactly what I'm saying. The cup seems to be what you need to switch up. It's crazy to me though.

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

My brilliant prof studied with Remington. One day he told me he had switched to a Bach 6 1/2AL....had done so months before and nobody noticed, not even the students sitting in his studio. His reason:" Nobody notices which mouthpiece you are using. But they DO notice when you miss notes."


20 years later Alain Trudel said in a masterclass, that the secret was playing everything on a mouthpiece one size TOO SMALL. A proper diligent warm-up will give you a full sound, and your endurance will be twice as long.

Same advice.

There isn't a sax player, trumpet player, or 95% of the people you work, with who give a damn what you use for gear.. but they do care if you miss notes.

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

I find it extremely difficult to decide what is better or worse in terms of gear. I like your post Harrison, I don't know if I agree with it or not but it's making me think  

I play a Laskey 93D pretty much exclusively. The only reason for this is that I get the most positive feedback on my sound when using it and the sound I make when playing it is noticeably easier to blend in a section than any other mouthpiece I have tried.

I also own a Laskey screw rim piece. It has an 85MD cup but a 93 rim screwed on. I also have a bach 2G and a bach 4G under part to screw the 93 rim onto. Like you, when I have played long recitals or solos with demanding upper register sections, I have been tempted to switch the rim onto my 85MD under part. It is easier to play for a longer period of time in the upper register and articulations are slightly less work to make clear. However, unlike you I notice quite a large difference in general sound quality. It is not like the 85MD underpart sounds bad, but I find the sound more piercing and aggressive. When I have asked for others opinions who I trust, they all say the straight 93D is a superior sound all over.
Long story short, I prefer to practice being able to play what a piece of music demands of me on a mouthpiece which lets me produce the best sound I am capable of making, regardless of if it is more work to play on or not.

I don't play much tenor anymore but if I Do, I find that rather than put my bass rim on a tenor cup I will just play a tenor mouthpiece. It is MUCH more work for me, but again, it's a better over sound. I would rather work harder for better results than be more "comfortable" whilst knowing I wasn't making my best sound.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

See, it's interesting about the sound. To me, behind the bell, the difference in sound seems huge, just as you say.

To listeners who are my colleagues and know what to listen for, and also to people who have no clue, on the other side of the bell the difference in sound is more about how it projects, and how open in sounds. Sound that projects better and is more open is probably better for solo work anyways.

Maybe being able to easily play the music and express things through dynamics and articulations and not missing a single note is more critical than getting the absolute best sounding tone possible with the chance that very difficult repertoire might have a chance of a chipped note or getting tanked out.

The more I look into it, the more I notice that guys who play in orchestras, big name orchestras, and also do solo work and recitals are playing pretty different mouthpieces for each type of work.

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 27, 2017, 04:02PMSee, it's interesting about the sound. To me, behind the bell, the difference in sound seems huge, just as you say.

To listeners who are my colleagues and know what to listen for, and also to people who have no clue, on the other side of the bell the difference in sound is more about how it projects, and how open in sounds. Sound that projects better and is more open is probably better for solo work anyways.

Maybe being able to easily play the music and express things through dynamics and articulations and not missing a single note is more critical than getting the absolute best sounding tone possible with the chance that very difficult repertoire might have a chance of a chipped note or getting tanked out.

The more I look into it, the more I notice that guys who play in orchestras, big name orchestras, and also do solo work and recitals are playing pretty different mouthpieces for each type of work.

Maybe. It's possible my situation is very different to yours, it's hard to know. The info I get though even from others, is that it's not worth swapping.

[ttf_BGuttman]

I think it's appropriate that you might use a different mouthpiece for section playing or for a "heavy" solo.  But switching in the middle of a gig or even worse in the middle of a piece, is not recommended.  You play a gig on one horn and one mouthpiece when possible (says the guy who brings an alto, a tenor, and a bass to Christmas concerts where we swap out parts and one of the pieces is the Hallelujah Chorus where I double the alto voices).

[ttf_Ellrod]

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 27, 2017, 04:59PMI think it's appropriate that you might use a different mouthpiece for section playing or for a "heavy" solo.  But switching in the middle of a gig or even worse in the middle of a piece, is not recommended.  You play a gig on one horn and one mouthpiece when possible (says the guy who brings an alto, a tenor, and a bass to Christmas concerts where we swap out parts and one of the pieces is the Hallelujah Chorus where I double the alto voices).

Who doesn't recommend this? Who makes these rules? Who decides what is appropriate and what isn't?

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

The only thing I've heard from people with good ears in front of my bell that I feel justifies having switched from the first mouthpiece I ever had with my respective instruments ( 6-1/2AL on small bore, 51D on large bore, and BT1 on bass ) is that, even after practicing very hard on my own and with instructors, I sound like I'm playing easier than with the last mouthpiece. Something has been fixed my the hard machine that was getting in the way of the soft machine. That doesn't mean I can stop practicing or that if all I do is practice I can play any mouthpiece. If there were only size 10 shoes for running I'd have to run barefoot. But they make bigger shoes. And they make mouthpieces that fit different people's faces. They also make more than one type of shoe. Hiking, running, cleats... why not use a mouthpiece that makes solos easier on you and one for ensemble work easier?

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Aug 27, 2017, 05:41PMThe only thing I've heard from people with good ears in front of my bell that I feel justifies having switched from the first mouthpiece I ever had with my respective instruments ( 6-1/2AL on small bore, 51D on large bore, and BT1 on bass ) is that, even after practicing very hard on my own and with instructors, I sound like I'm playing easier than with the last mouthpiece. Something has been fixed my the hard machine that was getting in the way of the soft machine. That doesn't mean I can stop practicing or that if all I do is practice I can play any mouthpiece. If there were only size 10 shoes for running I'd have to run barefoot. But they make bigger shoes. And they make mouthpieces that fit different people's faces. They also make more than one type of shoe. Hiking, running, cleats... why not use a mouthpiece that makes solos easier on you and one for ensemble work easier?

I think that is an intelligent way of thinking about it. I don't know for Sure, but I imagine it is not super common for the same reason that I was describing. Even if something is easier to play (which is a broad and loaded term) I imagine most serious players are not willing to swap gear regularly if it negatively (or they perceive that it negatively) impacts sound. It is hard to define what a negative impact on sound Is, but the serious players I know create a sound or collection of sounds they can use on particular gear, and are not willing to compromise that, even a little.

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Aug 27, 2017, 08:26PMI think that is an intelligent way of thinking about it. I don't know for Sure, but I imagine it is not super common for the same reason that I was describing. Even if something is easier to play (which is a broad and loaded term) I imagine most serious players are not willing to swap gear regularly if it negatively (or they perceive that it negatively) impacts sound. It is hard to define what a negative impact on sound Is, but the serious players I know create a sound or collection of sounds they can use on particular gear, and are not willing to compromise that, even a little.

I think there's an grey area there, too. There is one 6 1/2AL that I have that I think gives me a great section sound. But I have to work to play low or high within the context of second chair. And that leads me to think that if I do that for two or three hours that I'll get worn out and become inconsistent. It's easier to play within my and my mouthpiece's ability than to play within just my ability.

I did something dumb for one performance. I played two different cups in the same tune because I had one set up I loved for being in a section and one I loved as a soloist so I switched between them then I had a solo and when I played as an ensemble. Technically it worked but I realized that it just made me think of myself as two different players. I'm one person playing in one band on one horn. Not a section player AND a soloist. I only call it dumb because it was just solo sections in tunes not. Ring featured as a soloist. Slightly different but that distinction is quite large

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Maybe it's different for tenor playing but for bass trombone playing the phrase "play smart not hard" always comes to my mind.

If I'm playing a huge cannon with a toilet bowl mouthpiece in a orchestra, I'm honestly probably working too hard and shouldn't be using that setup in the first place. I see no reason why you would have to switch mouthpieces if your horn is fairly normal and you're using a normal Schilke 60ish or smaller sized mouthpiece.

Look at two of the best old school players... Ray Premru and George Roberts. They used the same horn and the same mouthpiece for everything under the sun. I don't see why players go to having two extreme setups when you can easily have one very useable middle of the road bass trombone setup that will work for classical, jazz and solo work.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Well, I had a great practice for 3.5 hrs today on the 1A without taking a rest, trying to get in shape for an upcoming audition. On the menu was "Harvest", "Mandrake in the Corner", "I'm Getting Sentimental",   "Jive for Five" BQ, Sulek "Vox Gabrieli", S-Saens "Cavatine", Sandstrom "Bombibone Brassbit" and R. Korsakov Concerto. I was trying to decide on which pieces to use, and which parts of the pieces to use.

Endurance was not really a problem until the halfway point, which surprised me. It was nothing but B', C's, D's, the entire time, and then the one D# and E in the piece by Sandstrom. I decided to keep playing some low lip slurs, and then my endurance came back. I finally had to stop because my neck and back were too tired and I was dehydrated.

The solo mouthpiece is a viable tool. However my ears feel weird after playing pieces like that for that long, and I could feel the mouthpiece trying to pigeonhole me into playing a certain way.

I didn't notice anything weird with the intonation, but it definitely was brighter than normal. Articulations were much easier.

[ttf_sabutin]

I take it a step further. Different horns and m'pces...always the same m'pce on each horn. I cannot find one horn and/or two m'pces that adequately fit the many different kinds of music that I must play as a NYC freelancer. I used to use only one horn/one m'pce...either a silver 3B/6.5AL, a single bore Bach 16/6.5A and later an 11C and an Earl Williams 6/11C...for a number of years, but I am now am much happier playing horns and m'pces that really focus on specific sorts of tasks. "Day-to-Day Mouthpiece" vs. "Solo Mouthpiece" just scratches the surface here in NYC. Which day and which kind of solo?

Really.

A five set older-style dance band lead gig?

A latin gig?

A three horn jazz gig?

A gig in more modern large ensemble jazz groups?

Playing jazz w/a quartet?

Playing in an amplified pop/rock/blues/whatever scene?

Playing third parts in a 4 trombone section where you want to timbrally lock really well w/the bs. trombonist some part of the time (often written w/trigger notes) but also want to access a lock upwards, towards the lead player and also as a soloist?

A B'way gig where you essentially simply want to disappear into the morass of the orchestra so that the conductor doesn't have a fit when he actually hears a note?

And so on.

And that list doesn't include bass trombone gigs or large bore-required orchestral and chamber styles.

My own solution...and it's practice-intensive of necessity...is to play 6 trombones with 6 different m'pces, all of which are fairly mainstream sizes for the instruments involved.

.485, .500, .508, .525., .547 and bass.

Like I said, this requires constant effort...intelligent effort, well-considered, efficient effort...in order to be at least line-level proficient on all of them, but the rewards are both musical and financial. I play the trombone because I enjoy playing the trombone (Bottom line. If it wasn't fun I'd be doing something else. Bet on it.), and my enjoyment is vastly amplified when the sounds coming out of my horn are somewhere close to the sounds that I like to hear coming from a trombone in different idioms. I also play the trombone to make a living, and I can pretty much guarantee that many of the people for and with whom I work wouldn't recognize my playing on many of the horns that I play regularly.

Occupying some places in the working and/or school worlds do not require such a complex stable of horns, but unless you play only one idiom all of the time, you start to get into places where only one horn or one horn/2 m'pces is simply not enough. I mean...when I came to NYC almost everybody played only one horn. Then as idioms began to change and expand, it went from one horn to two...usually tenor and bass...then to three (a trigger tenor), and so on.

Your results may vary, of course.

Have fun...at least there's never a dull moment.

Later...gotta go practice two horns for the next couple of weeks of work coming up. Trigger .525 on a 5G-ish DE m'pce for a week-long tour with Dave Liebman's big band and dedicated lead on a .500 bore w/a Minick 11C on steroids for a gig with the band that Phil Woods started at the Deer head Inn...the COTA Festival.

Two entirely different approaches as far as I am concerned.

And that doesn't count last-minute calls on whatever.

Like I said...have fun.

S.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

You ROCK Sam! Knock it outta the park!

[ttf_hyperbolica]

I'm of the different horns for different purposes camp too, and one mpc per horn. I used to just use an 88h for everything. Experimenting with smaller bore stuff opened a new world for me. Different types of trombone sound that fit different musical situations.

[ttf_Dukesboneman]

I`m kind of the opposite/and yet the same as Sam`s approach.
I play Mount Vernon 7C`s on all My small bore horns. However, I have matched each of these 7C`s with the horn I`m using them on.
Large Bore - Doug Elliott 98/F/F8   98 rim = roughly 7-ish rim
Bass Trombone  - Yamaha 59  (Small-ish Bass Mouthpiece ) But works for me.

I know I need to stay with the similar rim on my horns. The Elliott set-up is not perfect but works for me

[ttf_JBledsoe]

I usually use a Greg Black NY1 for almost everything. My main job is much more soloistic in nature than most as a I play in a brass quintet for a living. The NY1 allows enough brilliance in the upper register and flexibility everywhere else that it's my go-to piece for solo playing as well. During the summers, when I'm playing principal in the Missouri Symphony, I usually play a NY1.5, and also when I'm playing 2nd. Lately, I've been playing a Doug Elliott XT106 with a G cup and G+9 backbore. When I play in the orchestra, I switch to a G+ cup. It's not a drastic difference on either mouthpiece, but just a slight widening of the sound.

Personally, I don't switch out of an endurance necessity. I've found that over time, my approach adapts to the mouthpiece. When I switch to the larger cup, I find that I have less endurance in the upper register for a week or so. When I switch back to the smaller cup after a period of time, I feel like Superman, but that feeling is short-lived because eventually my body/approach adapt to the necessary effort level.

[ttf_steve335]

I also use the Alessi 1 series and I have asked myself the same questions.
I play on a 1B although I also have the 1C.
I'm satisfied with the 1B (although if anyone has an Alessi 1.25M for sale please get in touch) and I find the sound it makes to be big enough to make a powerful 1st trombone sound in an orchestra while at the same time I feel I've got good stamina , a solid high range and flexibility to change my sound and articulation when needed. i suppose if I used the analargy of a car, even though the 1C is better on the freeway, with the 1B I can change gear , zip around and get from 0 to 100 quicker.
As Griego states on his website

"The B cup is a great piece for demanding playing that requires extended endurance to play not just excerpts, but long performances. This mouthpiece trends towards the upper register ensuring the last note on the performance is as good as the first."

I've also recorded these pieces without knowing which one was which, there is a difference but it's not that obvious. Sometimes I couldn't always tell from the recording which was the 1B and which was the 1C.
Regarding Bousfield, he normally plays small equipment (cup depth wise) even in the orchestra, and I believe this helps him sound as loud as he does as he projects by cutting through the orchestra. By contrast playing on larger cups might make a big round full sound that is difficult to change by way of sound and articulation, and doesn't project as well.

[ttf_Dukesboneman]

I never understood this concept. I was always under the impression that you find a mouthpiece that works for you on your horn choice and just make it work.
For years that is what I did. I am primarily a small horn player playing a bach 7C. It works for me for everything I need.
Now..... I retired and moved to Florida . I`m doing about 1/2 of my playing now in light classical. So I got ahold of 2 large bore horns.
a Bach 42BO and a Getzen Canadian Brass Straight Horn. Love `em both.
Now  I play on a Doug Elliott 98(7-ish size rim) and F cup and Shank.  And they work amazing for me
Then the inevitable happened, I`m looking around on the classified section here and a Stork 5 comes up for sale that is just the cup and has Elliott threads on it. So I bought it.
It is sooooo much darker and richer sounding than the Elliott. but...
For the Trombone Quartet that I play in it`s to0 much so the Elliott works best
For the Large Brass Ensemble I ply in it`s amazing
I get to use the same rim on both but the difference is startiling
 

[ttf_Dukesboneman]

I never understood this concept. I was always under the impression that you find a mouthpiece that works for you on your horn choice and just make it work.
For years that is what I did. I am primarily a small horn player playing a bach 7C. It works for me for everything I need.
Now..... I retired and moved to Florida . I`m doing about 1/2 of my playing now in light classical. So I got ahold of 2 large bore horns.
a Bach 42BO and a Getzen Canadian Brass Straight Horn. Love `em both.
Now  I play on a Doug Elliott 98(7-ish size rim) and F cup and Shank.  And they work amazing for me
Then the inevitable happened, I`m looking around on the classified section here and a Stork 5 comes up for sale that is just the cup and has Elliott threads on it. So I bought it.
It is sooooo much darker and richer sounding than the Elliott. but...
For the Trombone Quartet that I play in it`s to0 much so the Elliott works best
For the Large Brass Ensemble I ply in it`s amazing
I get to use the same rim on both but the difference is startiling