Mpc advice small-to-large bore transition

[ttf_Jhereg]

For the past five years I've been playing exclusively small bore trombones. I'm trying to work the large bore back up and am encountering some issues with leaking air, poor control in the lower range, and pressing way too hard/tiring out way too quickly. While some of this may be caused by being away from a large bore for a long time, I'm also wondering if it's just that my embouchure has changed. Five years is a long time after all.

I'd like to see if changing my mouthpiece would help.
Five years ago I was comfortable on a Hammond 12ML with the large bore. Then for the past five years I've been playing Warburton 12D or 11M on the small bore.

Is there anyone out there who knows enough about mouthpieces to recommend something that I should try? I suspect something with a similar "shape" to a Warburton, and smaller/shallower than the Hammond I've used in the past?

[ttf_BGuttman]

The Warburtons are MUCH smaller than the Hammond.  The Hammond is around a Bach 5 size.  You might want to try a Marcinkiewicz 8H-6.5AL, Warburton 10 or even a Yamaha 47B for now as you get your large bore chops back.  If you were closer I'd loan you my Giardinelli 6 1/2 AL (which is too small for me).

Good luck.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Obligatory Doug Elliot suggestion here....

I'm a convert. Switched to a DE maybe a year ago (maybe less?) My usable range has gone up despite using a 4 rim (I used a 6.5AL for my entire life before then.) Keep the same rim, just switch the cup and backbore out going from small to large.

I've spent quite a bit on mouthpieces over the years. I have no desire to buy another.

Your mileage may vary of course. I'm a believer.

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 19, 2017, 06:05PMThe Warburtons are MUCH smaller than the Hammond.  The Hammond is around a Bach 5 size.  You might want to try a Marcinkiewicz 8H-6.5AL, Warburton 10 or even a Yamaha 47B for now as you get your large bore chops back.  If you were closer I'd loan you my Giardinelli 6 1/2 AL (which is too small for me).

Good luck.

Thanks B Yes......the Warburtons were smaller...no question about that!
I'll look for a Marcinkiewicz and if I can't find one, at least there are a zillion 6 1/2 ALs around the music store.

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 19, 2017, 06:17PMObligatory Doug Elliot suggestion here....

I'm a convert. Switched to a DE maybe a year ago (maybe less?) My usable range has gone up despite using a 4 rim (I used a 6.5AL for my entire life before then.) Keep the same rim, just switch the cup and backbore out going from small to large.

I've spent quite a bit on mouthpieces over the years. I have no desire to buy another.

Your mileage may vary of course. I'm a believer.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'm kind of intimidated/overwhelmed by all of the options with the Elliotts. Is there a "basic" combo that's smaller than a Bach 5 that you might suggest? I've got no way to try that brand out before buying (that I know of) so not really feeling a $200+ blind buy.

[ttf_BGuttman]

I had suggested the Marcinkiewicz simply because the rim shape is similar to the Warburton so it might feel more familiar.

You could probably try an Elliott LT 100 / E / E8 for your large bore.  It's somewhat smaller than the normal G or H cup that most of us play.  A 100 rim is close to a 6.5 AL.  If you want something more like the Warburtons you might want to try a 99 or 98 rim.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Email Doug, you can setup a skype session with him.

Here's how it went for me: A few questions, he asked me to play something (I blew through a head I had been shedding that day and soloed for a little bit I think.) And then he had me play some notes - like a Bb here, an F there, and made a diagnosis. Very easy going, very helpful - almost like getting a free lesson with your mouthpiece order as I learned some things about my playing. He recommended a rim based on his observations of and a cup/backbore combination based on which horn(s) I play most on. If I go back to playing large bores again soon I'll get another cup and backbore but keep the same rim. The rim I'm using felt larger at first which of course it is - it's 4 instead of the 6 sized rims I've used for almost 25 years. It took me about a week or 2 to get used to it. Early fatigue was the biggest issue, that took about 3 days to work out. Range was lower first few days but started to improve. My usable high range has increased and feels like it's still incrementally improving. I was playing it on my 2B, a horn I've had for about 15 years, now on a Williams I got recently. It feels great on both.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

C'mon Megan, you trusted me to sub on your gig... All you have to do is ask.  I'm good at suggesting the right thing the first time if I have the right information.

demouthpieces on Skype

[ttf_sonicsilver]

Quote from: Jhereg on Aug 19, 2017, 05:52PMFor the past five years I've been playing exclusively small bore trombones. I'm trying to work the large bore back up and am encountering some issues with leaking air, poor control in the lower range, and pressing way too hard/tiring out way too quickly. While some of this may be caused by being away from a large bore for a long time, I'm also wondering if it's just that my embouchure has changed. Five years is a long time after all.

I'd like to see if changing my mouthpiece would help.
Five years ago I was comfortable on a Hammond 12ML with the large bore. Then for the past five years I've been playing Warburton 12D or 11M on the small bore.

Is there anyone out there who knows enough about mouthpieces to recommend something that I should try? I suspect something with a similar "shape" to a Warburton, and smaller/shallower than the Hammond I've used in the past?

Ok, I'll be the sourpuss who tells you what you don't want to hear.

All of what you describe, I recognise in my own playing as typical difficulties going from small to big. For me, going from big to small is much easier and quicker to adjust. After years of small horn playing, your big horn won't come back overnight or in a couple of weeks. Give yourself a fair chance and have some patience with the practicing. The problem is you, not the mouthpiece which worked fine for you in the past when you were playing on it regularly {--- there's your big clue.

During a rough patch on the instrument, it's very tempting to think oh my god my mouthpiece is broken and rush out and buy something with a design that favours the aspect of technique we've been struggling with. Fuzzy articulations get cleaned up by a sharper rim, for example. Hey presto, new mouthpiece makes the articulations better... until the next rough patch when flexibility is the problem. Hmmm maybe I need a mouthpiece with a rounder rim, and so on and so on. Buying a new mouthpiece just buys you slightly different practice requirements.

It takes some grit to seek out and confront one's own bad technique all the time, but that's the way we get better. We practice to improve poor playing, right? Not to entertain ourselves with the lovely tromboning that we can already do.

The caveat, of course, is that some people's physiology or embouchure mechanics work against a certain size of mouthpiece or style of rim. Here's where Doug Elliott is very knowledgeable. I don't recall ever seeing anyone unhappy with the results of his advice. I also think that his mouthpieces are the best available. However, what you describe sounds exactly like rusty big tenor chops. Patience...

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Yes.

I went through the "smaller mouthpiece for small bore" thing when I got into the Airmen of Note.  Just as a personal experiment.  I figured since I had that gig now, I should give it a try.  For a year I played exclusively on one of my pieces about 11C size.

To make a long story short, things stopped working, and I worked my way back up one size at a time from 97 to 104 and that's when everything clicked.  Of course I had all of that available to me since I made them, so it was relatively easy to do.

Years later I got Bill Hamilton on a tour I was doing, and took him gradually through exactly the same process all the way from an 11C size, and everything clicked for him too when he finally got to 104.

For many if not most players, there is a size where everything just works best. Not necessarily 104, but that size works for a lot of players - that has even surprised me.  When you find the best size and stick with it, small and large bore become easy, or at least easier, to switch between.

But as a primarily small bore player, it does take a lot of time and practice to get comfortable again on a big horn.

[ttf_watermailonman]

My belief is it is ALWAYS you and never the mouthpiece. As long as you are not playing obscure stuff, as long as your physiology is not the obstacle you could do fine on any equipment you choose. I guess I have fairly even and nice looking teeth. To the average jaw my belief is Bach 11C-ish, 6 3/4 C, 12C, 7C, 6 1/2 AL all can work if you put time into them. The Hammond series is also good. I play 14, 13, 12, 11 both M and ML, Bass 19 BL and 20 BL. I play the Bach 12E on alto. From largest to smallest rim there is a huge difference, but not a problem for my physology. I choose different mouthpieces depending on what horn I play. Back long before I had an embouchure that worked, I mean in high school before I could play anything for real, then I struggled with any mouthpiece. Many years later when my playing stabilised at 35-45 I noticed I could play ANY mouthpiece I picked up.

How did I get there?

For years I had only a couple of mouthpieces a Denis Wick 6bl for large bore and a Bach 12 C for small bore a 12E for alto and a Yamaha 59 for bass. It sort of worked but was not very comfortable. It was always a struggle, but somtime on the way it just stopped being a problem. When this happened mouthpiece was still an issue but it was fine tuning. Not that a mouthpiece could not be fitted to my lips or that I couldn't play all the notes, or not play legato or articulate. The choice now is fine-tuning the instrument with the right mouthpiece and find the right mouthpiece for what I'm playing, not adjusting mouthpiece to my lips. I know there are other beliefs. My belief is it is ALWAYS you, but then you can choose smart, and not make it to tiering for the lips. For me higher notes are easier on a small mouthpiece and lower notes are easier on a big mouthpiece. Both rim and depth. Not that I can't play high on a large mouthpiece, I just get tired faster if I do and low notes speaks louder and with more volume on a bigger mouthpiece. Both rim and cup and you need to practice all the mouthpieces, and the switching.

/Tom

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

You're a professional-- you know what to do.
Once a mouthpiece is made it remains the same for hundreds of years. Human flesh, on the other hand, ages daily. Five years is a long time to a human body. A long time especially if you practice and gig daily on gear and you adjust daily to accommodate the difference in your physiology.

Don't expect to pick up a new set of skills and physical tricks over night. Especially after years of success otherwise on different gear.

Try to follow H. L. Clarke's advice. Lots of air and lots of playing in the slower dynamics so you don't rip yourself apart or cause injury or chop damage. You can't build the large mouthpiece musculature-- chops muscle and breathing intercostal muscle--without lots of long slow practice sessions. Lots of flexibility done safely. Quietly. Go slow.

How much does a human body change between the ages of 18 and 23. Multiply that ad infinitum as you age. 65 to 70? Five years does not need to be undone, but it is a long slow process to overwrite the genetic code you've burned into your small bore chops.

I'll say it again:
You're a professional, you know what to do.
Just let yourself do it, and be patient.
Play safe.

Safe playing? Did you hear that Willie Nelson was hit by a bus? Yeah, he was playing "On The Road Again"?

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

No disrespect to Doug, a few folks in my town play his mouthpieces with amazing results.

Any mouthpiece, ANY mouthpiece, is just a piece of gym gear. You need to go to the gym religiously and do the exercises safely and under supervision at first. You want to lift heavy weights ( big mouthpieces) you put in the time lifting small weights and go to the gym and work out a lot.
You train your body.
The barbells remain the same.
The gym remains the same.
Your and your body do the changing.

If you want to change your musculature or fitness you do cross training. That is where the cornet/trumpet exercises come in: H. L. Clarke is cross training for trombonists.

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 19, 2017, 07:02PMI had suggested the Marcinkiewicz simply because the rim shape is similar to the Warburton so it might feel more familiar.

You could probably try an Elliott LT 100 / E / E8 for your large bore.  It's somewhat smaller than the normal G or H cup that most of us play.  A 100 rim is close to a 6.5 AL.  If you want something more like the Warburtons you might want to try a 99 or 98 rim.

Ok, great!
I mean, if possible I'll get another Warburton. Just trying to figure out how much smaller I need to go without going too small if that makes any sense. Thanks!

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 19, 2017, 07:59PMEmail Doug, you can setup a skype session with him.

Here's how it went for me: A few questions, he asked me to play something (I blew through a head I had been shedding that day and soloed for a little bit I think.) And then he had me play some notes - like a Bb here, an F there, and made a diagnosis. Very easy going, very helpful - almost like getting a free lesson with your mouthpiece order as I learned some things about my playing. He recommended a rim based on his observations of and a cup/backbore combination based on which horn(s) I play most on. If I go back to playing large bores again soon I'll get another cup and backbore but keep the same rim. The rim I'm using felt larger at first which of course it is - it's 4 instead of the 6 sized rims I've used for almost 25 years. It took me about a week or 2 to get used to it. Early fatigue was the biggest issue, that took about 3 days to work out. Range was lower first few days but started to improve. My usable high range has increased and feels like it's still incrementally improving. I was playing it on my 2B, a horn I've had for about 15 years, now on a Williams I got recently. It feels great on both.


Ok, thanks! I'm going to poke around the music store a bit and see if I can find something that I could start with right away, otherwise I'll reach out to Doug. 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 19, 2017, 10:28PMC'mon Megan, you trusted me to sub on your gig... All you have to do is ask.  I'm good at suggesting the right thing the first time if I have the right information.

demouthpieces on Skype

Lol! Thanks I believe it, it's just that I wasn't even sure the mouthpiece size was the issue or if it was just that I need to adjust back to it again. But I guess I have the answer. The only time I'd be able to skype and play would be early in the morning Mon-Sat., or in the afternoons on Sunday. I'm gonna see what's lying around our retail store...at the very least I want to try a 6.5 and see if it helps at all.

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 06:20 AMOk, I'll be the sourpuss who tells you what you don't want to hear.

All of what you describe, I recognise in my own playing as typical difficulties going from small to big. For me, going from big to small is much easier and quicker to adjust. After years of small horn playing, your big horn won't come back overnight or in a couple of weeks. Give yourself a fair chance and have some patience with the practicing. The problem is you, not the mouthpiece which worked fine for you in the past when you were playing on it regularly {--- there's your big clue.

No, this is exactly what I was asking about and wanted to hear. I didn't know if it was possible for one's embouchure to change drastically after using it differently for an extended period. If it was possible, then it would follow that changing the mouthpiece might be something I should consider. If playing a small bore for five years doesn't cause changes that would require equipment adjustment, then I'm happy to stick with what I have and just keep working on it. I remember struggling in a similar way with learning to play bass trombone, so really I'm not surprised if it's just me.

Thank you for the input, this is why I posted here...to gather opinions!

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Yesterday at 06:38 AMYes.

I went through the "smaller mouthpiece for small bore" thing when I got into the Airmen of Note.  Just as a personal experiment.  I figured since I had that gig now, I should give it a try.  For a year I played exclusively on one of my pieces about 11C size.

To make a long story short, things stopped working, and I worked my way back up one size at a time from 97 to 104 and that's when everything clicked.  Of course I had all of that available to me since I made them, so it was relatively easy to do.

Years later I got Bill Hamilton on a tour I was doing, and took him gradually through exactly the same process all the way from an 11C size, and everything clicked for him too when he finally got to 104.

For many if not most players, there is a size where everything just works best. Not necessarily 104, but that size works for a lot of players - that has even surprised me.  When you find the best size and stick with it, small and large bore become easy, or at least easier, to switch between.

But as a primarily small bore player, it does take a lot of time and practice to get comfortable again on a big horn.

Understood. I'll keep working at it then. I do suspect that in general, without the whole adjustment thing, I may personally be comfortable with something smaller than a 5. According to the chart on the Warburton site, the 11M and 12D are actually not far off from a Bach 7. So maybe closer to that, whether it's a 6.5 or a 7, would be an OK equipment change to make.

Quote from: watermailonman on Yesterday at 07:07 AMMy belief is it is ALWAYS you and never the mouthpiece. As long as you are not playing obscure stuff, as long as your physiology is not the obstacle you could do fine on any equipment you choose.
/Tom

I very much agree with you in general and have also subscribed to this philosophy. However I'm asking about a specific situation as opposed to overall mouthpiece philosophy. I'm returning to a large instrument and mouthpiece after having played a small instrument/mpc for five years. I realize that there is an adjustment, and that with time there should be no reason that I can't sound great on the large equipment, because I have in the past and like you say, it's possible to do fine on any equipment.

However, what I wanted to know was whether playing a small bore for five years straight might actually change one's embouchure, in other words one's physiology as you put it, to the point where they should consider changing their equipment (the mouthpiece). I'm not asking this casually or because I don't want to work hard on my large bore chops...I'm going to do that anyway. For the past five years I played 400 shows per year, for an average of 800 hours of playing per year, for a total of 4,000-some hours of playing exclusively on small bore equipment. That's a lot of time for your teeth to move and your lips to change to accommodate what you're doing. So while I realize that much of my problem is me needing to work up the bigger horn again, I also couldn't help but wonder if an actual physical change took place over those five years, and if so, do I need to consider changing my equipment? But I guess maybe that's a question for dentists! Or mouth specialists! (Is there such a thing? LOL!!)

But anyway yes, I think you're right, and it's possible to sound good on anything when you adjust yourself

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Yesterday at 07:33 AMYou're a professional-- you know what to do.
Once a mouthpiece is made it remains the same for hundreds of years. Human flesh, on the other hand, ages daily. Five years is a long time to a human body. A long time especially if you practice and gig daily on gear and you adjust daily to accommodate the difference in your physiology.

Don't expect to pick up a new set of skills and physical tricks over night. Especially after years of success otherwise on different gear.

Try to follow H. L. Clarke's advice. Lots of air and lots of playing in the slower dynamics so you don't rip yourself apart or cause injury or chop damage. You can't build the large mouthpiece musculature-- chops muscle and breathing intercostal muscle--without lots of long slow practice sessions. Lots of flexibility done safely. Quietly. Go slow.

How much does a human body change between the ages of 18 and 23. Multiply that ad infinitum as you age. 65 to 70? Five years does not need to be undone, but it is a long slow process to overwrite the genetic code you've burned into your small bore chops.

I'll say it again:
You're a professional, you know what to do.
Just let yourself do it, and be patient.
Play safe.

Safe playing? Did you hear that Willie Nelson was hit by a bus? Yeah, he was playing "On The Road Again"?

Thank you for the advice I've been very careful not to overdo it/cause injury. What you've said here is exactly what I was wondering about. Five years is a long time to a human body. I'm sure that over five more years I can adjust back. But perhaps it's a good idea to find middle ground on the way back. Or maybe there were changes that are lasting. I don't know, these are just things that I wondered if I needed to consider. I'm glad to get advice!Quote from: bonesmarsh on Yesterday at 10:44 AMNo disrespect to Doug, a few folks in my town play his mouthpieces with amazing results.

Any mouthpiece, ANY mouthpiece, is just a piece of gym gear. You need to go to the gym religiously and do the exercises safely and under supervision at first. You want to lift heavy weights ( big mouthpieces) you put in the time lifting small weights and go to the gym and work out a lot.
You train your body.
The barbells remain the same.
The gym remains the same.
Your and your body do the changing.

If you want to change your musculature or fitness you do cross training. That is where the cornet/trumpet exercises come in: H. L. Clarke is cross training for trombonists.

So I kind of interpret this as "It's ok to get a smaller mouthpiece on the way back to the bigger one". Cool, I think that's what I'll do 

[ttf_Matt K]

Another recommendation for the Elliott stuff.  Same with the 104 too.  Did a diversion on something smaller (11C) in masters degree and worked my way back to a 104 as well.  Bass is a different story. Still haven't figured it out. But I have a 104 with a deep cup that works fine for bass too, at least for the level of playing I'm doing on it. 

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

In his 1961 bible, The Art of Trombone Playing,  Ed Kleinhammer wrote: Human flesh can adapt to anything.

That said, in the modern world a lot of modern players play euphonium sized mouthpiece on tenor trombones, because the flavour and fad has gone bigger and bigger since 1961. Teachers ( a lot of teachers who have never had a paid gig.....) will tell you what to do, regardless of what might possibly work for you.
   See Kleinhammer's quote above. It is both a positive statement, and a negative statement, in the wrong hands.

TTF is a funny place. Lots of dismissive writing about 6 1/2AL sized mouthpieces for large bore tenor, because it is almost unAmerican to play gear from 1961. It is fine for Europeans to play a size 6 1/2AL mouthpiece of course, because they are not American, and therefore uneducated.
( This is a prejudice of mine, since I am not American, but did study with Americans from the golden era pre--1970).

Read Sam Burtis's posts for brilliance in the written word. He says use what works. He also admits to doing daily 6 hours of daily practice to keep in shape on all of his horns.

[ttf_CJ]

If you like Warburton's stuff you might try the Scott Bleige pieces. The large one is somewhere between 6.5AL and a 5G in sound. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for.  The rim is similar to a Bach 7. If you're looking to accomplish a 4G sound on a tiny rim, that's going to be dicey.  Possible? Perhaps with the right piece AND the right set of chops

[ttf_CJ]

If you like Warburton's stuff you might try the Scott Bleige pieces. The large one is somewhere between 6.5AL and a 5G in sound. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for.  The rim is similar to a Bach 7. If you're looking to accomplish a 4G sound on a tiny rim, that's going to be dicey.  Possible? Perhaps with the right piece AND the right set of chops