Great. Thanks for the info. Would it be too much trouble to post some pictures of your workhorse? I'm very interested to see how different it looks than the standard valve sections.
I'm curious about the comment you made below about medium bore slides not working with the small bore setup. Do you make a small bore tenon .525 slide (like a Bach 36) or only the dual-bore 508-525 for small bore horns?
I see your point with hard mounting the bell. Maybe the 7.75 is the best of both worlds (bach 6,12,16 and the 36/3b) so I wouldn't need to swap bells depending on the gig. Being able to switch straight section would come in handy though.
Thanks again Ben. I think i'll shoot you a PM. It would be nice to try a setup like this.
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 11, 2014, 11:16AM
The valve section use don small bores (about 6 or 7 exist in the world...) is a smaller, conventional rotor. Very different than the one we use on our medium and large bore trombones. It is the same style wrap, but the proportions are different due to the different spacing of small bore bells.
We can make a valve section and neckpipe modular for your use. But after playing a couple of these, I do think having the valve section hard mounted to the bell makes for a more responsive horn and a more open valve. I've done a lot of experimenting with my own modular horn and will be converting it to hard mounting when I can spare the time.
Our small bores are not compatible with our medium bore instruments. The medium bore instruments are directly compatible with our large bore instruments; the bell, tuning slides, and valve are all the same options. We've done some experiments with medium bore slides on our small bore bells and they don't work well enough for us to get behind. (We also don't get enough request for that). We can usually satisfy one's wants for this with our standard options.
I hope that helps.
Ben
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
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ttf_choski55
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: choski55 on Aug 11, 2014, 10:57PMGreat. Thanks for the info. Would it be too much trouble to post some pictures of your workhorse? I'm very interested to see how different it looks than the standard valve sections.
I'm curious about the comment you made below about medium bore slides not working with the small bore setup. Do you make a small bore tenon .525 slide (like a Bach 36) or only the dual-bore 508-525 for small bore horns?
I see your point with hard mounting the bell. Maybe the 7.75 is the best of both worlds (bach 6,12,16 and the 36/3b) so I wouldn't need to swap bells depending on the gig. Being able to switch straight section would come in handy though.
Thanks again Ben. I think i'll shoot you a PM. It would be nice to try a setup like this.
If the bottom tube of the slide is larger than .508, it will not be compatible with our small bore components. So the T08-25 is only available with the medium bore horns. We do not make a .525 that is compatible with the small bore bells; as I mention, we've done some experiments and result is not something we'd release.
If you were looking for a more .525 like feel, I would recommend a .508 bore slide in lightweight nickel or brass paired with our standard tuning slide.
The 7.75 bell is our Goldielocks bell size, capable of lead and 3rd commercial parts and can be at home in an orchestral pops setting. It is more like an 8" bell you would expect from King or Conn. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't played so many myself back to back. Our 8" bell tends to get a bigger sound more in line with a larger instrument.
Ben
I'm curious about the comment you made below about medium bore slides not working with the small bore setup. Do you make a small bore tenon .525 slide (like a Bach 36) or only the dual-bore 508-525 for small bore horns?
I see your point with hard mounting the bell. Maybe the 7.75 is the best of both worlds (bach 6,12,16 and the 36/3b) so I wouldn't need to swap bells depending on the gig. Being able to switch straight section would come in handy though.
Thanks again Ben. I think i'll shoot you a PM. It would be nice to try a setup like this.
If the bottom tube of the slide is larger than .508, it will not be compatible with our small bore components. So the T08-25 is only available with the medium bore horns. We do not make a .525 that is compatible with the small bore bells; as I mention, we've done some experiments and result is not something we'd release.
If you were looking for a more .525 like feel, I would recommend a .508 bore slide in lightweight nickel or brass paired with our standard tuning slide.
The 7.75 bell is our Goldielocks bell size, capable of lead and 3rd commercial parts and can be at home in an orchestral pops setting. It is more like an 8" bell you would expect from King or Conn. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't played so many myself back to back. Our 8" bell tends to get a bigger sound more in line with a larger instrument.
Ben
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ttf_TromboneMonkey
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
FWIW, the .508 Shires horns with the standard tuning slide that I've played all feel closer to .525 than .508, especially with an open leadpipe.
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ttf_sabutin
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Quote from: griffinben on Aug 12, 2014, 06:59AM
---snip---
If you were looking for a more .525 like feel, I would recommend a .508 bore slide in lightweight nickel or brass paired with our standard tuning slide.
The 7.75 bell is our Goldielocks bell size, capable of lead and 3rd commercial parts and can be at home in an orchestral pops setting. It is more like an 8" bell you would expect from King or Conn. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't played so many myself back to back. Our 8" bell tends to get a bigger sound more in line with a larger instrument.
Ben
What he said.
I like the regular weight brass slides more, myself...a deeper sound, more overtones...but there's a lot to be said for the lightweights as well. Less effort for similar presence out front, just for starters. Lots less effort. And as much as I like my 8" 7LW bell as a lyrical lead bell w/my .485 slide, I regret that they didn't have a 7.75 bell available when I got it. There is a point to the sound of the Shires 7.75" bells that disappears on either side of that size. I have a 7.75" gold plated 1YM bell that I use w/my .500 slide> It is just perfect as a lead horn for power situations. Put a 7.5 bell on it and it gets a little nasty when you step on it. Put an 8" on it and it kinda disappears in the clutch.
7.75" is juuuuust right.
The Goldilocks mean in contemporary American style.
Bet on it.
---snip---
If you were looking for a more .525 like feel, I would recommend a .508 bore slide in lightweight nickel or brass paired with our standard tuning slide.
The 7.75 bell is our Goldielocks bell size, capable of lead and 3rd commercial parts and can be at home in an orchestral pops setting. It is more like an 8" bell you would expect from King or Conn. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't played so many myself back to back. Our 8" bell tends to get a bigger sound more in line with a larger instrument.
Ben
What he said.
I like the regular weight brass slides more, myself...a deeper sound, more overtones...but there's a lot to be said for the lightweights as well. Less effort for similar presence out front, just for starters. Lots less effort. And as much as I like my 8" 7LW bell as a lyrical lead bell w/my .485 slide, I regret that they didn't have a 7.75 bell available when I got it. There is a point to the sound of the Shires 7.75" bells that disappears on either side of that size. I have a 7.75" gold plated 1YM bell that I use w/my .500 slide> It is just perfect as a lead horn for power situations. Put a 7.5 bell on it and it gets a little nasty when you step on it. Put an 8" on it and it kinda disappears in the clutch.
7.75" is juuuuust right.
The Goldilocks mean in contemporary American style.
Bet on it.
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ttf_francischap
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
A Shires related question. I wondered why Michael Davis went for .491 straight bore rather than dual. Did his 2B have that modification?
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: francischap on Aug 13, 2014, 10:16AMA Shires related question. I wondered why Michael Davis went for .491 straight bore rather than dual. Did his 2B have that modification?
I haven't talked to Mike about it, but knowing what I know about the whole Shires process I'll bet he settled on that spec because it's what worked the best for him. Guaranteed he tried many combinations.
Guaranteed.
S.
I haven't talked to Mike about it, but knowing what I know about the whole Shires process I'll bet he settled on that spec because it's what worked the best for him. Guaranteed he tried many combinations.
Guaranteed.
S.
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I have another question. (What is this, my 15th? 
)
What can you tell me about the gold plated finish?
Apparently it is a good finish for those who have high acidity.
)What can you tell me about the gold plated finish?
Apparently it is a good finish for those who have high acidity.
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: sabutin on Aug 13, 2014, 11:27AMI haven't talked to Mike about it, but knowing what I know about the whole Shires process I'll bet he settled on that spec because it's what worked the best for him. Guaranteed he tried many combinations.
Guaranteed.
S.
Yes.
Guaranteed.
S.
Yes.
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: LowBrassKing on Aug 13, 2014, 12:39PMI have another question. (What is this, my 15th? )
What can you tell me about the gold plated finish?
Apparently it is a good finish for those who have high acidity.
Gold will resist this a bit, but not completely. If you have highly acidic pH level you will wear through the gold as well. It just might take a year longer.
The only real solution is to clean your horn often. Its far less expensive and will not change the way your instruments plays the way gold plating does.
What does gold plating do? Tends to add weight, which changes response. It also lends a heft and warmth to the sound quality. Sam has a gold plated small bore, so I will let him comment on it more.
Due to the high price, we do not gold plate many trombones.
Ben
)What can you tell me about the gold plated finish?
Apparently it is a good finish for those who have high acidity.
Gold will resist this a bit, but not completely. If you have highly acidic pH level you will wear through the gold as well. It just might take a year longer.
The only real solution is to clean your horn often. Its far less expensive and will not change the way your instruments plays the way gold plating does.
What does gold plating do? Tends to add weight, which changes response. It also lends a heft and warmth to the sound quality. Sam has a gold plated small bore, so I will let him comment on it more.
Due to the high price, we do not gold plate many trombones.
Ben
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 13, 2014, 01:02PMGold will resist this a bit, but not completely. If you have highly acidic pH level you will wear through the gold as well. It just might take a year longer.
The only real solution is to clean your horn often. Its far less expensive and will not change the way your instruments plays the way gold plating does.
What does gold plating do? Tends to add weight, which changes response. It also lends a heft and warmth to the sound quality. Sam has a gold plated small bore, so I will let him comment on it more.
Due to the high price, we do not gold plate many trombones.
Ben
I like moderately "dark" sounds when I play, but I also often have to play at quite high volumes in strenuously high registers...think 2 or 3 sets of lead in a screaming latin big band. Smaller horns/smaller m'pces make the high/loud/long thing easier, but they also tend to get very bright sounding in those situations. (I think of it as "nasty," actually.) I played a fine Mt. Vernon Bach single bore 16 (converted ny John "Peppy" Pettinato) when I was playing lead in Bill Watrous's NYC big band. I was also doing a lot of latin work at the time, and the horn just didn't sound right to me in the latin stuiff. It was lacquered, so first I took the lacquer off. Better, but still too light for Nuyorican latin music. Then I silver plated it. Hated it. Too bright, then suddenly at lower volumes dead as a a doornail. Next I gold plated it. Eureka!!! Right for everything!!!
Fast forward a few years. Still playing a broad range of idioms, I lucked into a wonderful lacquered brass Earl Williams 6. But again...not quite right at modern...read "overamplified"...volumes. This time I split the difference, because I was was doing a lot of work with Tito Puente and I didn't want to get too dark sounding. Gold plated the slide, silver plated the bell. That worked too.
Fast forward another few years. I found a Shires .500 that put the Williams right back into the case. But again...too bright at latin volumes. Gold plated it...¡¡¡Perfecto!!!
It's an expensive fix, but if you want a certain kind of mass at volume from a good small bore horn and you can afford the expense, it's worth a try. I still use my gold plated .500 bore Shires for a larger range of work than any other horn I own. Great quiet, great loud. What more can you ask?
Later...
S.
The only real solution is to clean your horn often. Its far less expensive and will not change the way your instruments plays the way gold plating does.
What does gold plating do? Tends to add weight, which changes response. It also lends a heft and warmth to the sound quality. Sam has a gold plated small bore, so I will let him comment on it more.
Due to the high price, we do not gold plate many trombones.
Ben
I like moderately "dark" sounds when I play, but I also often have to play at quite high volumes in strenuously high registers...think 2 or 3 sets of lead in a screaming latin big band. Smaller horns/smaller m'pces make the high/loud/long thing easier, but they also tend to get very bright sounding in those situations. (I think of it as "nasty," actually.) I played a fine Mt. Vernon Bach single bore 16 (converted ny John "Peppy" Pettinato) when I was playing lead in Bill Watrous's NYC big band. I was also doing a lot of latin work at the time, and the horn just didn't sound right to me in the latin stuiff. It was lacquered, so first I took the lacquer off. Better, but still too light for Nuyorican latin music. Then I silver plated it. Hated it. Too bright, then suddenly at lower volumes dead as a a doornail. Next I gold plated it. Eureka!!! Right for everything!!!
Fast forward a few years. Still playing a broad range of idioms, I lucked into a wonderful lacquered brass Earl Williams 6. But again...not quite right at modern...read "overamplified"...volumes. This time I split the difference, because I was was doing a lot of work with Tito Puente and I didn't want to get too dark sounding. Gold plated the slide, silver plated the bell. That worked too.
Fast forward another few years. I found a Shires .500 that put the Williams right back into the case. But again...too bright at latin volumes. Gold plated it...¡¡¡Perfecto!!!
It's an expensive fix, but if you want a certain kind of mass at volume from a good small bore horn and you can afford the expense, it's worth a try. I still use my gold plated .500 bore Shires for a larger range of work than any other horn I own. Great quiet, great loud. What more can you ask?
Later...
S.
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ttf_sommerfeld
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 11, 2014, 11:16AMThe medium bore instruments are directly compatible with our large bore instruments; the bell, tuning slides, and valve are all the same options.
Are the med/large bore and bass valve sections compatible? Could you swap a large bore's valve section into a bass if you wanted a single-valve instrument for the day? Or is a single-valve valve section different between med/large and bass?
Are the med/large bore and bass valve sections compatible? Could you swap a large bore's valve section into a bass if you wanted a single-valve instrument for the day? Or is a single-valve valve section different between med/large and bass?
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
The tenor valve sections have a different tuning slide that is smaller in terms of the diameter of the tubing and overall width.
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: sommerfeld on Aug 14, 2014, 12:10PMAre the med/large bore and bass valve sections compatible? Could you swap a large bore's valve section into a bass if you wanted a single-valve instrument for the day? Or is a single-valve valve section different between med/large and bass?
As Matt said, the large bore and bass components are not interchangeable.
The tuning slides are both wider (distance between lower and upper leg) and the bore size of the differing tuning slides/valve sections are not compatible. Moreover, the bore sizes of bass and large/medium tenor valve sections are not the same.
Large tenor and bass slides are compatible. You could use a bass slide on a tenor bell or vice versa.
Ben
As Matt said, the large bore and bass components are not interchangeable.
The tuning slides are both wider (distance between lower and upper leg) and the bore size of the differing tuning slides/valve sections are not compatible. Moreover, the bore sizes of bass and large/medium tenor valve sections are not the same.
Large tenor and bass slides are compatible. You could use a bass slide on a tenor bell or vice versa.
Ben
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 15, 2014, 05:35AMAs Matt said, the large bore and bass components are not interchangeable.
The tuning slides are both wider (distance between lower and upper leg) and the bore size of the differing tuning slides/valve sections are not compatible. Moreover, the bore sizes of bass and large/medium tenor valve sections are not the same.
Large tenor and bass slides are compatible. You could use a bass slide on a tenor bell or vice versa.
Ben
So is their a difference between single valve bass and tenor valve systems?
The tuning slides are both wider (distance between lower and upper leg) and the bore size of the differing tuning slides/valve sections are not compatible. Moreover, the bore sizes of bass and large/medium tenor valve sections are not the same.
Large tenor and bass slides are compatible. You could use a bass slide on a tenor bell or vice versa.
Ben
So is their a difference between single valve bass and tenor valve systems?
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ttf_octavposaune
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
You werent reading carefully enough. valve bores, spans etc are all different. No you cant use a bass valve set on a tenor or vice versa.
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: octavposaune on Aug 15, 2014, 05:28PMYou werent reading carefully enough. valve bores, spans etc are all different. No you cant use a bass valve set on a tenor or vice versa.
Sorry guys. I'll try to read things with more care next ime.
Sorry guys. I'll try to read things with more care next ime.
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ttf_Mahlerbone
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
My bass bell is the Pro Select bell that has been converted to fit modular horns. Ben, I think you said it was basically a BI 2G. How much of a difference would a BII taper make? The rest of my horn is a B62LW, yellow tuning slide, and dependent Trubores. I recently used this horn in a 9 show run of Mary Poppins and it was amazing. I love this setup for big band playing as well. However, sometimes I feel that for orchestral playing my sound could be a little bit more broad.
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Mahlerbone on Aug 17, 2014, 09:30AMMy bass bell is the Pro Select bell that has been converted to fit modular horns. Ben, I think you said it was basically a BI 2G. How much of a difference would a BII taper make? The rest of my horn is a B62LW, yellow tuning slide, and dependent Trubores. I recently used this horn in a 9 show run of Mary Poppins and it was amazing. I love this setup for big band playing as well. However, sometimes I feel that for orchestral playing my sound could be a little bit more broad.
A BII taper bell would definitely take a step in that direction. BII 7GM would be a good place to start (or finish!).
Ben
A BII taper bell would definitely take a step in that direction. BII 7GM would be a good place to start (or finish!).
Ben
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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ttf_trombone addict
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Who do you recommend for repair work (hopefully I won't ever need this information) in the Boston area? Is shires able to do repair work or do your duties as a manufacturer make repair work on shires instruments impractical?
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Ben,
I heard a rumor tonight that there wre some minor changes being made to new Tru-bores. The source isn't as nearly as big of a nerd as I am about his stuff, so I wondered if perhaps they were confusing the tru-bore with the dual bore rotor or if there was some truth to the rumor?
I heard a rumor tonight that there wre some minor changes being made to new Tru-bores. The source isn't as nearly as big of a nerd as I am about his stuff, so I wondered if perhaps they were confusing the tru-bore with the dual bore rotor or if there was some truth to the rumor?
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Matt K on Aug 19, 2014, 06:48PMBen,
I heard a rumor tonight that there wre some minor changes being made to new Tru-bores. The source isn't as nearly as big of a nerd as I am about his stuff, so I wondered if perhaps they were confusing the tru-bore with the dual bore rotor or if there was some truth to the rumor?
I don't know what the rumor is so I couldn't possibly comment.
I heard a rumor tonight that there wre some minor changes being made to new Tru-bores. The source isn't as nearly as big of a nerd as I am about his stuff, so I wondered if perhaps they were confusing the tru-bore with the dual bore rotor or if there was some truth to the rumor?
I don't know what the rumor is so I couldn't possibly comment.
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 19, 2014, 07:12PMI don't know what the rumor is so I couldn't possibly comment.
I guess that wraps that up! The way it was described to me was very similar to the idea of the dual-bore rotor. They probably were just a little behind the times.Unless you're planning on coming out with a dual-bore tru-bore
I guess that wraps that up! The way it was described to me was very similar to the idea of the dual-bore rotor. They probably were just a little behind the times.Unless you're planning on coming out with a dual-bore tru-bore
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ttf_trombone addict
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Matt K on Aug 19, 2014, 07:24PMUnless you're planning on coming out with a dual-bore tru-bore
and I thought that the tru-bore couldn't get more open... .562-.578
and I thought that the tru-bore couldn't get more open... .562-.578
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: trombone addict on Aug 19, 2014, 06:21PMWho do you recommend for repair work (hopefully I won't ever need this information) in the Boston area? Is shires able to do repair work or do your duties as a manufacturer make repair work on shires instruments impractical?
Osmun Music (now in Acton on Route 62) sees Shires horns frequently and gets my recommendation. I have also had minor work done at the factory. However, if I were running the business (which, fortunately, I'm not) I would not encourage bringing routine maintenance jobs into the factory.
Osmun Music (now in Acton on Route 62) sees Shires horns frequently and gets my recommendation. I have also had minor work done at the factory. However, if I were running the business (which, fortunately, I'm not) I would not encourage bringing routine maintenance jobs into the factory.
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Anything new in R&D that can be mentioned?
T.
T.
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: tsmart on Aug 21, 2014, 05:03AMAnything new in R&D that can be mentioned?
T.
Not really...
S.
T.
Not really...
S.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
That the 35mm spitball launcher? 
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 21, 2014, 10:07AMThat the 35mm spitball launcher?
You have to remove the outer slide for that.
You have to remove the outer slide for that.
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ttf_AntonioPatrick
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Can I buy S.E.Shires leadpipes with a collar suited for friction fit? as in no threads? Also what is the policy with trying out leadpipes? can I buy 3 on my credit card and return the 2 I don't want? and then be charged for the one I want?
-Antonio Patrick
-Antonio Patrick
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: AntonioPatrick on Aug 23, 2014, 02:50PMCan I buy S.E.Shires leadpipes with a collar suited for friction fit? as in no threads? Also what is the policy with trying out leadpipes? can I buy 3 on my credit card and return the 2 I don't want? and then be charged for the one I want?
-Antonio Patrick
One can purchase a leadpipe with collar only, no threads. However there are a couple of caveats: 1.) There is no guarantee that it will fit completely into the receiver of your instrument. 2.) It is a custom, non returnable item. Once its made, its yours; whether its one, or three. We do not modify existing leadpipes.
Please contact us directly about return policies. Your best bet if you want to try leadpipes is to visit and/or contact a dealer.
Ben
-Antonio Patrick
One can purchase a leadpipe with collar only, no threads. However there are a couple of caveats: 1.) There is no guarantee that it will fit completely into the receiver of your instrument. 2.) It is a custom, non returnable item. Once its made, its yours; whether its one, or three. We do not modify existing leadpipes.
Please contact us directly about return policies. Your best bet if you want to try leadpipes is to visit and/or contact a dealer.
Ben
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ttf_AntonioPatrick
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 25, 2014, 07:26AMOne can purchase a leadpipe with collar only, no threads. However there are a couple of caveats: 1.) There is no guarantee that it will fit completely into the receiver of your instrument. 2.) It is a custom, non returnable item. Once its made, its yours; whether its one, or three. We do not modify existing leadpipes.
Please contact us directly about return policies. Your best bet if you want to try leadpipes is to visit and/or contact a dealer.
Ben
Okay, I might end up getting one used on the Forum and grinding off the threads. It seems this option would save hair pulling out for the both of us! Thanks for your time,
-Antonio
Please contact us directly about return policies. Your best bet if you want to try leadpipes is to visit and/or contact a dealer.
Ben
Okay, I might end up getting one used on the Forum and grinding off the threads. It seems this option would save hair pulling out for the both of us! Thanks for your time,
-Antonio
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: AntonioPatrick on Aug 25, 2014, 10:50AMOkay, I might end up getting one used on the Forum and grinding off the threads. It seems this option would save hair pulling out for the both of us! Thanks for your time,
-Antonio
I would recommend getting a good tech to remove the threads.
-Antonio
I would recommend getting a good tech to remove the threads.
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ttf_AntonioPatrick
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 25, 2014, 01:54PMI would recommend getting a good tech to remove the threads.
Noah at BrassArk would do it for me.
Noah at BrassArk would do it for me.
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ttf_gbedinger
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I just acquired a Shires rotary valve for a large bore Shires. I swapped out the straight gooseneck and replaced it with the valve but had a difficult time getting the tuning slide in. After attempts, gently enough to not bend or dent metal, both ends finally inserted correctly. Now that I have a fully assembled horn (that plays beautifully, by the way), the fit of the tuning slide is so snug that I have a hard time working the slide in or out. I've tried loosening and retightening the bell braces to no effect. Any pointers?
And Ben, a new-found respect for your agility placing all three valve types on this Shires to try out (in seconds no less) at the last ETW. Thanks again!
And Ben, a new-found respect for your agility placing all three valve types on this Shires to try out (in seconds no less) at the last ETW. Thanks again!
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: gbedinger on Aug 29, 2014, 12:35PMI just acquired a Shires rotary valve for a large bore Shires. I swapped out the straight gooseneck and replaced it with the valve but had a difficult time getting the tuning slide in. After attempts, gently enough to not bend or dent metal, both ends finally inserted correctly. Now that I have a fully assembled horn (that plays beautifully, by the way), the fit of the tuning slide is so snug that I have a hard time working the slide in or out. I've tried loosening and retightening the bell braces to no effect. Any pointers?
And Ben, a new-found respect for your agility placing all three valve types on this Shires to try out (in seconds no less) at the last ETW. Thanks again!
OK, this could be a couple of things. Any used section may have undergone who-knows-what in its life, so anything might be off. Your bell and tuning slide fit easily at ETW with factory fresh valve sections, so we know that the parts can work with other valves. This is not to say the valve you got has been abused or is defective in anyway, but parts can become a part of a complete horn when they're subjected to the same life over many years.
Here's how I would check it out...
First, make sure all slide receivers(tuning slide and bell) and free of dirt/grime.
Then, lubricated with tuning slide gel (we recommend Hetman #7), fit the tuning slide to both the bell and valve independently. No troubles with this step, move on.
If it moves sluggishly try cleaning again. If it keeps grabbing/moving slowly you may need to lap the tuning slide to that individual part. If you;ve never lapped anything bring it to a good tech. There are a few in the DC area that could do it. (Assuming your tuning slide has always worked with your bell the valve slide might be the problematic one, but that is a pretty rare occurance).
Fit the valve section to the bell without the tuning slide. Does it fit easily? Is there friction/tension? Make a note and move on.
Now, with the lock nuts of the valve section only tightened about one turn (so VERY loose) fit the tuning slide. I like to hold the bell section for this procedure flat, with the bell opening facing/flat on my stomach and the lever side (inside) facing up toward me. This way I can see the alignment of the tuning slide and make sure it's going in true. A tuning slide that is not parallel with the valve and bell will not slide easily. It's lubricated with slide gel and fit both parts and the lock nuts are loose enough that you should be able to get it to slide in easily. It will also locate the angle/distance it wants the bell and valve section to be.
You should now have a horn with the tuning slide in and able to move freely. If it does not move freely there is a problem with the alignment of the bell braces (valve section side) and the bell lock nuts. If so, bring to a tech to have them adjusted. If not, move on.
If everything has worked great up to this point, the trouble is the spacing and/or alignment of the valve side brace studs and/or the bell lock nut receivers. This is the most likely culprit. If you want both the straight neckpipe and valve section to fit great you need to bring all the parts to a good tech or send them to the factory to get everything aligned.
Sorry for the tome, but this is how I would to go about it. I'm also willing to bet there are more than a few people reading this that may have encountered this issue, so I wanted to be thorough. Good luck, and I'm happy to fit any valve section to your bell any time!
Best,
Ben
And Ben, a new-found respect for your agility placing all three valve types on this Shires to try out (in seconds no less) at the last ETW. Thanks again!
OK, this could be a couple of things. Any used section may have undergone who-knows-what in its life, so anything might be off. Your bell and tuning slide fit easily at ETW with factory fresh valve sections, so we know that the parts can work with other valves. This is not to say the valve you got has been abused or is defective in anyway, but parts can become a part of a complete horn when they're subjected to the same life over many years.
Here's how I would check it out...
First, make sure all slide receivers(tuning slide and bell) and free of dirt/grime.
Then, lubricated with tuning slide gel (we recommend Hetman #7), fit the tuning slide to both the bell and valve independently. No troubles with this step, move on.
If it moves sluggishly try cleaning again. If it keeps grabbing/moving slowly you may need to lap the tuning slide to that individual part. If you;ve never lapped anything bring it to a good tech. There are a few in the DC area that could do it. (Assuming your tuning slide has always worked with your bell the valve slide might be the problematic one, but that is a pretty rare occurance).
Fit the valve section to the bell without the tuning slide. Does it fit easily? Is there friction/tension? Make a note and move on.
Now, with the lock nuts of the valve section only tightened about one turn (so VERY loose) fit the tuning slide. I like to hold the bell section for this procedure flat, with the bell opening facing/flat on my stomach and the lever side (inside) facing up toward me. This way I can see the alignment of the tuning slide and make sure it's going in true. A tuning slide that is not parallel with the valve and bell will not slide easily. It's lubricated with slide gel and fit both parts and the lock nuts are loose enough that you should be able to get it to slide in easily. It will also locate the angle/distance it wants the bell and valve section to be.
You should now have a horn with the tuning slide in and able to move freely. If it does not move freely there is a problem with the alignment of the bell braces (valve section side) and the bell lock nuts. If so, bring to a tech to have them adjusted. If not, move on.
If everything has worked great up to this point, the trouble is the spacing and/or alignment of the valve side brace studs and/or the bell lock nut receivers. This is the most likely culprit. If you want both the straight neckpipe and valve section to fit great you need to bring all the parts to a good tech or send them to the factory to get everything aligned.
Sorry for the tome, but this is how I would to go about it. I'm also willing to bet there are more than a few people reading this that may have encountered this issue, so I wanted to be thorough. Good luck, and I'm happy to fit any valve section to your bell any time!
Best,
Ben
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Can you clarify some characteristics of the VE pipe? I have the opportunity to trade for one for one of my pipes I don't use. Does it fit somewhere within the 1-3 spectrum? Or is it something else entirely?
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Matt K on Sep 01, 2014, 07:27AMCan you clarify some characteristics of the VE pipe? I have the opportunity to trade for one for one of my pipes I don't use. Does it fit somewhere within the 1-3 spectrum? Or is it something else entirely?
I'll take this, Ben.
It's something else entirely: a copy of an Elkhart 8H pipe (probably the one in Steve's '63 8H that he says is the best 8H/88H he's ever played). I believe the venturi ends up somewhere around a 2.5 pipe, but it's shorter than the numbered pipes, and the receiver has a Brown and Sharpe taper like an Elkhart Conn. You need a B & S taper mouthpiece to use the VE pipe.
I'll take this, Ben.
It's something else entirely: a copy of an Elkhart 8H pipe (probably the one in Steve's '63 8H that he says is the best 8H/88H he's ever played). I believe the venturi ends up somewhere around a 2.5 pipe, but it's shorter than the numbered pipes, and the receiver has a Brown and Sharpe taper like an Elkhart Conn. You need a B & S taper mouthpiece to use the VE pipe.
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Sep 01, 2014, 07:57AMI'll take this, Ben.
It's something else entirely: a copy of an Elkhart 8H pipe (probably the one in Steve's '63 8H that he says is the best 8H/88H he's ever played). I believe the venturi ends up somewhere around a 2.5 pipe, but it's shorter than the numbered pipes, and the receiver has a Brown and Sharpe taper like an Elkhart Conn. You need a B & S taper mouthpiece to use the VE pipe.
Perfect! I was hoping to basically hear exactly that. Thanks!
It's something else entirely: a copy of an Elkhart 8H pipe (probably the one in Steve's '63 8H that he says is the best 8H/88H he's ever played). I believe the venturi ends up somewhere around a 2.5 pipe, but it's shorter than the numbered pipes, and the receiver has a Brown and Sharpe taper like an Elkhart Conn. You need a B & S taper mouthpiece to use the VE pipe.
Perfect! I was hoping to basically hear exactly that. Thanks!
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ttf_gbedinger
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Aug 30, 2014, 06:31PM
Sorry for the tome, but this is how I would to go about it. I'm also willing to bet there are more than a few people reading this that may have encountered this issue, so I wanted to be thorough. Good luck, and I'm happy to fit any valve section to your bell any time!
Best,
Ben
Ben, sorry for taking so long to get back to this, but thanks!
Sorry for the tome, but this is how I would to go about it. I'm also willing to bet there are more than a few people reading this that may have encountered this issue, so I wanted to be thorough. Good luck, and I'm happy to fit any valve section to your bell any time!
Best,
Ben
Ben, sorry for taking so long to get back to this, but thanks!
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ttf_JimR
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Hello Ben,
Can I get your thoughts on small shank T25NLW leadpipe for use with 1YM8 bell and T25NLW slide for jazz band.
Here is my experience to date:
Benn using a MT2.5L pipe for large shank mouthpiece and paired with the T25NLW slide, trubore valve and 1YT7 bell. This combo really works for me while using a DE XTF cup. The articulation, response and sound are all more locked in then anything I have played. Plays open and easy. The 1YT7 bell didn't really work as well with the small shank M1 pipe I had before - didn't display the balance it does now with the large shank setup - pretty much a night and day difference.
However, when using this same MT2.5L leadpipe and mouthpiece combo with a 1YM8 bell, it is not quite as locked in as with the larger bell; what I notice is the response and control between the 2nd to 4th partials aren't quite as locked in as they are with the larger bell.
Given that, what small shank pipe would you recommend for me to start with when paired with a DE XT E cup to use with the 8" bell and straight neck pipe for playing in the jazz band? For this application I really want to use a small shank mouthpiece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
jim/Denver CO
Can I get your thoughts on small shank T25NLW leadpipe for use with 1YM8 bell and T25NLW slide for jazz band.
Here is my experience to date:
Benn using a MT2.5L pipe for large shank mouthpiece and paired with the T25NLW slide, trubore valve and 1YT7 bell. This combo really works for me while using a DE XTF cup. The articulation, response and sound are all more locked in then anything I have played. Plays open and easy. The 1YT7 bell didn't really work as well with the small shank M1 pipe I had before - didn't display the balance it does now with the large shank setup - pretty much a night and day difference.
However, when using this same MT2.5L leadpipe and mouthpiece combo with a 1YM8 bell, it is not quite as locked in as with the larger bell; what I notice is the response and control between the 2nd to 4th partials aren't quite as locked in as they are with the larger bell.
Given that, what small shank pipe would you recommend for me to start with when paired with a DE XT E cup to use with the 8" bell and straight neck pipe for playing in the jazz band? For this application I really want to use a small shank mouthpiece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
jim/Denver CO
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: JimR on Sep 07, 2014, 02:16PMHello Ben,
Can I get your thoughts on small shank T25NLW leadpipe for use with 1YM8 bell and T25NLW slide for jazz band.
Here is my experience to date:
Benn using a MT2.5L pipe for large shank mouthpiece and paired with the T25NLW slide, trubore valve and 1YT7 bell. This combo really works for me while using a DE XTF cup. The articulation, response and sound are all more locked in then anything I have played. Plays open and easy. The 1YT7 bell didn't really work as well with the small shank M1 pipe I had before - didn't display the balance it does now with the large shank setup - pretty much a night and day difference.
However, when using this same MT2.5L leadpipe and mouthpiece combo with a 1YM8 bell, it is not quite as locked in as with the larger bell; what I notice is the response and control between the 2nd to 4th partials aren't quite as locked in as they are with the larger bell.
Given that, what small shank pipe would you recommend for me to start with when paired with a DE XT E cup to use with the 8" bell and straight neck pipe for playing in the jazz band? For this application I really want to use a small shank mouthpiece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
jim/Denver CO
Hi Jim,
This is a lot of very specific information, Bravo. Because of all of your specifics, I can't pinpoint something exactly without knowing more about your playing; the kind of more that comes from having you here in front of me and having different components to tweak things with.
I should make a note that there is a massive different between an M1 and an MT2.5L. Different lengths, different receivers (small vs. large shank), and different venturis (smallest vs. second largest). They are different worlds entirely.
Given this, I recommend gravitating back toward the middle: an M2. It's the Goldilocks pipes for the vast majority of people. Not-too-this, not-too-that....just right. From there you can better ascertain which direction to go.
Best,
Ben
P.S. I also own and regularly play a 1YM8/TW25NLW combo. I use an M2 for small shank work.
Can I get your thoughts on small shank T25NLW leadpipe for use with 1YM8 bell and T25NLW slide for jazz band.
Here is my experience to date:
Benn using a MT2.5L pipe for large shank mouthpiece and paired with the T25NLW slide, trubore valve and 1YT7 bell. This combo really works for me while using a DE XTF cup. The articulation, response and sound are all more locked in then anything I have played. Plays open and easy. The 1YT7 bell didn't really work as well with the small shank M1 pipe I had before - didn't display the balance it does now with the large shank setup - pretty much a night and day difference.
However, when using this same MT2.5L leadpipe and mouthpiece combo with a 1YM8 bell, it is not quite as locked in as with the larger bell; what I notice is the response and control between the 2nd to 4th partials aren't quite as locked in as they are with the larger bell.
Given that, what small shank pipe would you recommend for me to start with when paired with a DE XT E cup to use with the 8" bell and straight neck pipe for playing in the jazz band? For this application I really want to use a small shank mouthpiece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
jim/Denver CO
Hi Jim,
This is a lot of very specific information, Bravo. Because of all of your specifics, I can't pinpoint something exactly without knowing more about your playing; the kind of more that comes from having you here in front of me and having different components to tweak things with.
I should make a note that there is a massive different between an M1 and an MT2.5L. Different lengths, different receivers (small vs. large shank), and different venturis (smallest vs. second largest). They are different worlds entirely.
Given this, I recommend gravitating back toward the middle: an M2. It's the Goldilocks pipes for the vast majority of people. Not-too-this, not-too-that....just right. From there you can better ascertain which direction to go.
Best,
Ben
P.S. I also own and regularly play a 1YM8/TW25NLW combo. I use an M2 for small shank work.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I would add that some of the difference you're feeling in the solidity of slotting will have to do with the difference between the straight section and the valve section. Even though the interior dimension and shape of a trubore valve are essentially identical to a straight trombone, every time you add or subtract that much weight, especially directly on the tubing, things change significantly.
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ttf_JimR
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Thanks guys Appreciate it.
Gabe, when I compared the two bells I used the same configuration with valve and large shank pipe. That is where I noticed the difference in the response/slotting in the 2 - 4th partials between the larger and 8" bells.
When previously I used the M1 pipe, it was with the larger bell with both valve and straight section - just didn't work too well for me - way too tight.
This conversation confirmed that I should just go with the M2 pipe and see how it floats my boat so to speak.
Thanks again as always.
Jim
PS Thanks Ben for sharing your configuration also.
Gabe, when I compared the two bells I used the same configuration with valve and large shank pipe. That is where I noticed the difference in the response/slotting in the 2 - 4th partials between the larger and 8" bells.
When previously I used the M1 pipe, it was with the larger bell with both valve and straight section - just didn't work too well for me - way too tight.
This conversation confirmed that I should just go with the M2 pipe and see how it floats my boat so to speak.
Thanks again as always.
Jim
PS Thanks Ben for sharing your configuration also.
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ttf_sfboner
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Sep 08, 2014, 05:47AMI would add that some of the difference you're feeling in the solidity of slotting will have to do with the difference between the straight section and the valve section. Even though the interior dimension and shape of a trubore valve are essentially identical to a straight trombone, every time you add or subtract that much weight, especially directly on the tubing, things change significantly.
Absolutely. I sometimes use a straight neck pipe in nickel silver on my Shires (far better than the brass ones, IMO), and it takes several days to get used to the differences. Just as much so as with picking up another horn, like a Bach 36. There have been times when I would have liked to use the straight pipe, but just didn't have the time to practice out the transition.
Absolutely. I sometimes use a straight neck pipe in nickel silver on my Shires (far better than the brass ones, IMO), and it takes several days to get used to the differences. Just as much so as with picking up another horn, like a Bach 36. There have been times when I would have liked to use the straight pipe, but just didn't have the time to practice out the transition.
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ttf_Burgerbob
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Shires guys, how were the 2 pipes designed? How was such a good compromise made that works for so many people?
I ask because I have a few (Shires only) leadpipes for my Bires, but every time I come back to the 2. The 1.5 feels unacceptably small, the 2.5 huge and unfocused.
I ask because I have a few (Shires only) leadpipes for my Bires, but every time I come back to the 2. The 1.5 feels unacceptably small, the 2.5 huge and unfocused.
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ttf_Ellrod
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
What set up would you suggest to replicate a Bach 12?
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Ellrod on Sep 12, 2014, 05:17PMWhat set up would you suggest to replicate a Bach 12?
Which Bach 12?
And even then, how close do you want to come to it?
Seriously, they all play so different, its hard to totally replicate. AND no matter how close we get it still won't be a Bach.
My original T85G/SYLW 7.5/SY1.0 feels oddly similar to an old Bach12LTN that I once had (though my Shires projected MUCH better).
A 7YM 7.5 T7 might work very well. If you like it more focused on the front end, I would recommend a T85 slide paired with an SY1.0 or SY1.5 and maybe a T0 2.5 leadpipe. Otherwise, you could kick up to a T00 slide (.500 bore), but the T85 has more of the old school Bach 12 character and feel that I like.
It's a matter of taste.
And all of this could shift pretty radically depending on what particular Bach 12 sound/feel you are chasing.
I Hope that helps.
Ben
Which Bach 12?
And even then, how close do you want to come to it?
Seriously, they all play so different, its hard to totally replicate. AND no matter how close we get it still won't be a Bach.
My original T85G/SYLW 7.5/SY1.0 feels oddly similar to an old Bach12LTN that I once had (though my Shires projected MUCH better).
A 7YM 7.5 T7 might work very well. If you like it more focused on the front end, I would recommend a T85 slide paired with an SY1.0 or SY1.5 and maybe a T0 2.5 leadpipe. Otherwise, you could kick up to a T00 slide (.500 bore), but the T85 has more of the old school Bach 12 character and feel that I like.
It's a matter of taste.
And all of this could shift pretty radically depending on what particular Bach 12 sound/feel you are chasing.
I Hope that helps.
Ben
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ttf_Todd Jonz
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I just paid a visit to the new Shires store in Manchester, VT expecting to find a huge inventory of used trombones. Much to my surprise there wasn't a single instrument in stock. What gives?!
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ttf_anonymous
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
G'day Ben,
Would you care to comment on the difference in design philosophy between the 7 and 8 bass bells?
Cheers,
Nic
Would you care to comment on the difference in design philosophy between the 7 and 8 bass bells?
Cheers,
Nic