Brand loyalty (?)

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ttf_Dukesboneman
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Dukesboneman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:38 pm

When I was coming up in the musical world in Rochester, NY, you played Conn`s . More specifically , Conn 88H`s.Growing up the shadow of Eastman School of Music and Emory Reminton, You played an 88H. All my Trombone Teachers were Remington Students and they played 88H`s. I owned and 88 in High school and all of under grad. After Graduation, I briefly owned a Yamaha 645, Didn`t like it.
So I "had" to play a Conn, so I started playing 78H`s . I owned 3 and loved them. Then went to a small horn and owned 2 32H`s but went back to the 78H.
In my early 50`s , my sound concept changed and I was mature enough to realize that the sound in my head was not what the Conn`s were giving me. So I swtched to Bach`s, Bach 36. Suddenly the sound was coming into focus.. Love the 36`s (I still have a beautiful mount Vernon 36) . Now my loyalty goes  to Bach. I now own a 12G, 16Mg, 36 & 42BO.
Now I`m suddenly becoming fasinated with other horns. I bought a 2B+ SS last year, a Yamaha 321 bass (needed a Bass and the price really called the shots) and I just purchased a Mint Getzen Canadian Brass Straight Tenor..
Has anyone else had brand loyalty issues, I have a friend that loves Kings and specifally 2Bs . He had 8 2B`s and a couple 4B`s
Just Curious
ttf_Doug Elliott
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:01 pm

One good reason for brand loyalty is that the intonation and slide positions are usually fairly consistent with one brand's design concept.  When you switch brands you have to relearn everything and it's hard to go back and forth between horns when the positions are in different places.

I bought one if my Schmelzers from somebody who couldn't deal with how different it was.
ttf_NBee
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_NBee » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:58 pm

Brand loyalty issues huh? Good God I have had those. I could talk all day about this...   Image

Everyone has a reason they are brand loyal. I am loyal to Bach horns. I was influenced by teaches who played them, old recordings where sections used them (aka Chicago in the '70's-'90's), i was my first pro horn, and I just love the sound they get. For me, brand loyalty is all about how the horns feel and how they sound. Bach horns, for me, get the best response, best core, best articulation, and best overall sound quality out of any horn including the boutique makes. And I have had both Edwards and Shires.

I am interested in other horns too. But I just like to play them every once in a while to see what they feel like; what kind of sound can this horn give me with the way I produce sound? This ultimately turned into me researching and learned more than anyone should about horns. At the same time though, it reaffirms my loyalty to Bach.
ttf_hyperbolica
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_hyperbolica » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:33 pm

I grew up on an 88h, and that was all I played until I started playing in the Navy and they gave me a Bach 42, which by comparison felt like a galvanized trash can. I've considered myself a Conn man for most of my life.

But lately I bought a Kanstul because a properly configured Conn 62h is hard to find and expensive. I got a couple Yamahas, 651 and 691 which are both just amazing horns. Nice enough to make me sell some Conns. Then I got a Holton 159, and suddenly I had to rethink my life. There are so many great brands of horns out there. For reasons Doug mentioned, it's best to stick to a brand, but you will miss a lot of great stuff if you do that.


ttf_Posaunus
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Posaunus » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:49 pm

Not very loyal, I guess: 

   • Love my vintage King 2B, and my borrowed King 3B Silversonic
   • Love my 1972 Conn 88H (even though it may have been final assembled in Abilene)
   • Dislike the junker Conn Director I got for almost nothing.  (I'm making it a charitable donation!)
   • Dislike the Bach 42s I've tried
   • Like (but don't love) the Bach 36Bs I've played
   • Like very much my Yamaha YBL-421G single-valve bass (the only bass I've played)
   • Not a big fan of Holton tenors I've tried
   • Mixed feelings about Getzen tenors I've tried

All in all, I guess I'm most comfortable with Kings and Conns - especially their slides and their tone. 
   
ttf_Bimmerman
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Bimmerman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:01 pm

I'm partial to Bach horns, myself. My first pro-level smallbore was a 70s LT16M that was a gift from my dad, and it became my primary horn in short order. I like the evenness of the partials and the relative in-tune jumps between partials. I've added a few other Bachs since then and they all play similarly.

I've always liked the look and sound of Kings, so I bought a brass and silversonic 2B a couple years ago. Doug's right, jumping between them is challenging! The 2B partials don't line up at all compared to my Bach. When I was playing a lot, I didn't use the Kings much because of this difference. I dig their sound a lot but the uneven tuning takes some getting used to, and more importantly, takes some getting used to not having to do that when I play the other horns.

My Edwards is much more Bach-like, and takes very little mental recalibration to go between it and the Bach smallbores, which I really like.
ttf_gregs70
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_gregs70 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:45 pm

Growing up just a few miles from the King factory, yeah I have brand loyalty.  Got my 4B-F directly from the factory back in the early 70s.  My primary horn these days, lead in a big band and covering the French horn part in a quintet, is a 3B-F.  However, I love my Holton TR-180.  To me, loyalty to trombone brands is like loyalty to car brands - I have my favs, but if the competition makes a better car, I have no problem switching.  For those of a certain age, remember when Dual made great stereo equipment?  Phase Linear?  Both brands are still alive now but a pale shadow quality-wise to what they were. 
ttf_Terraplane8Bob
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Terraplane8Bob » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:16 pm

This very evening I have spent a couple of hours alternating between my two Conn Bass Trombones [ a 1932 70H TIS Dual-Bore ] and a more modern 62H and my two King Bass Trombones [an 8B and a SS Duo Gravis].  There is no question that technology has evolved from the 1930s, but each instrument has something substantial to bring to the table.  I was trying to decide on which instrument I would use on an upcoming concert, and the decision is NOT easy !  After considerable time spent,  think that I have made the decision, but not without misgivings.  I've stated several times on TTF that if I had only been able to play one instrument throughout my entire career, it would have been my Duo Gravis.  It has an expansive latitude that would make it one of the most adaptable trombones I've owned.  I really enjoy the 62H, and having started out as a Conn devotee, it suits me just fine, but the Duo Gravis can be so much more flexible and adaptable to any situation.  It never ceases to amaze me as to how "friendly" the DG is to any situation.  That is just my "Two Cents" and I'm sure that others might disagree.  I'm sure that the Conn - Bach - King - Shires - Getzen - Kanstul - Yamaha - Greenhoe - Edwards - Courtoise - Schagerl -  debate will rage far beyond the life spans of most of us, but I am certain that there are two clearly defined camps in this discussion.  One camp is the "clarity group" which appreciates an instrument that shows every flaw that we make as we struggle to control our obstreperous instruments into submission ---- and the other group that appreciates an instrument that tends to hide those flaws and compliment our efforts.  I've heard marvelous results from both camps and cannot dispute whatever it is that draws individuals to one camp or the other.   Making music is the real aim of all of our contortions, and finding that "magical" instrument on which to do it is a fascinating pursuit in itself.  Enjoy the ride -------------   Cheers !!   Bob
ttf_EWadie99
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_EWadie99 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:02 pm

I've played on different horns of different brands and find myself not loyal or biased to certain brands.

Like on tenor, I played a Elkhart Conn 88H (which my school owned) and a Corporation Bach 42B and liked both and found them to be great horns.  For the Besson student model BE 639 (the tenor I currently have), it was my first ever trombone when I started playing in sixth grade and found it to be a good student model horn for my uses for marching band and pep bands.

As for bass, I played a Benge 290 (owned by my school) and a Getzen 1062FD (which is my current horn).  As for other basses, I play tested a Holton TR-180 and a King Duo Gravis which they both didn't had split triggers and I found the magic bar on the Holton hard to play, while I found the side-by-side triggers on the Duo Gravis to work fine for me. (just my experience) Image 
ttf_blast
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_blast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:44 am

Quote from: EWadie99 on Jun 26, 2017, 08:02PMI've played on different horns of different brands and find myself not loyal or biased to certain brands.

Like on tenor, I played a Elkhart Conn 88H (which my school owned) and a Corporation Bach 42B and liked both and found them to be great horns.  For the Besson student model BE 639 (the tenor I currently have), it was my first ever trombone when I started playing in sixth grade and found it to be a good student model horn for my uses for marching band and pep bands.

As for bass, I played a Benge 290 (owned by my school) and a Getzen 1062FD (which is my current horn).  As for other basses, I play tested a Holton TR-180 and a King Duo Gravis which they both didn't had split triggers and I found the magic bar on the Holton hard to play, while I found the side-by-side triggers on the Duo Gravis to work fine for me. (just my experience) Image 

Ethan,
At your stage of playing, you have not really come to know any of your instruments..... give it time. It matters far less what you settle on than how hard you work to come the musician you want to be.
Over the years (50 of playing) I have played more brands than I care to remember, some I can come back to and feel a total stranger.... Bach are such a make.... and others have come to be old friends that I know very well indeed. Conns are familiar, as are Holtons and Raths. I no longer have the desire to learn other makes at my time of life.... just make music with equipment that I really know. Conns, Holtons and Raths took years to really get into. I don't have the time to waste on learning the quirks of others makes, so I suppose I have in the end, become brand loyal. I have the Raths and if I work with people who hear with their eyes, I have Conns and Holtons that might make them happy.... though I sound like me whatever.

Chris Stearn
ttf_elmsandr
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_elmsandr » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:58 am

Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 01:44 AMEthan,
At your stage of playing, you have not really come to know any of your instruments..... give it time. It matters far less what you settle on than how hard you work to come the musician you want to be.
...

I do want to jump and add my impression of Chris's comments a little.  I think the major component here is the depth of knowledge in learning a horn that only comes with years.  However, I think a large contributing factor is also the plasticity of youth. In the past, I was a better player than I am now.  Just haven't had the practice time with a kid and another engineering degree.  I was much more able to adapt to different tendencies and tunings than I am now.  I would jump between three manufacturers and 5 bore sizes in 3 different keys and be fairly fluid.  Certainly I know that I was more consistently on center of pitch and tone than I am today.  Enjoy the ability to be malleable while it lasts.

As for the loyalty, yeah, I'm pretty much a Bach guy now.  I just like the sound I get.  I know I posted this someplace else, but even if I sound the same on recording, I just do not feel right playing unsoldered bells.  The feedback from the horn to me playing is not the signal that my brain is expecting and I am unable to retrain myself to hear it.

Cheers,
Andy
ttf_bonesmarsh
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_bonesmarsh » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:39 am

In 2000 I caught an Alain Trudel masterclass. During a ,QnA session he was asked about his Yamaha Trudel mouthpiece. His answer: buy a Bach 61/2AL and play it until there was no plating left on the rim--- just like he did for 10 years, 16 hours a day.
Trudel mentioned he still missed his Elkhart 88H.
Brand loyalty?-- that is where Yamaha gets their R&D from, the cloning and input from players with brand loyalty, not players who played Yamaha for 40 years.

Loyalty? How do you deal with big band trumpet sections who switch mouthpieces between rests and 20 times a gig. ( I kid not).

Chris is correct--- sometimes play a horn for sentimental reasons and let the chips fall where they may, nobody in the audience will know, but you will. Chris is also correct that you may possibly not have an informed opinion about brand loyalty, when you post on the internet that you're just about to have your first lesson.
ttf_EWadie99
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_EWadie99 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:27 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Yesterday at 06:39 AMIn 2000 I caught an Alain Trudel masterclass. During a ,QnA session he was asked about his Yamaha Trudel mouthpiece. His answer: buy a Bach 61/2AL and play it until there was no plating left on the rim--- just like he did for 10 years, 16 hours a day.
Trudel mentioned he still missed his Elkhart 88H.
Brand loyalty?-- that is where Yamaha gets their R&D from, the cloning and input from players with brand loyalty, not players who played Yamaha for 40 years.

Loyalty? How do you deal with big band trumpet sections who switch mouthpieces between rests and 20 times a gig. ( I kid not).

Chris is correct--- sometimes play a horn for sentimental reasons and let the chips fall where they may, nobody in the audience will know, but you will. Chris is also correct that you may possibly not have an informed opinion about brand loyalty, when you post on the internet that you're just about to have your first lesson.
Yeah, I see what you mean.  I do have a somewhat limited opinion on brand loyalty and haven't experience much of either brand.  Hopefully my lesson with my teacher will help me steer in the right direction. 

Who knows, maybe I'll someday find a brand that I'll stand by after my playing has developed further, that'll be interesting to see.   
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:10 am

I played my 88H for ten years, for at least two hours nearly every day. I love that trombone. I would do drones and intervals every few days, so I had that trombone pretty well figured out.

I had what you call brand-loyalty, and I bought a Conn alto. I ended up going with a King 3B for my "small" bore, because I couldn't figure out the small Conn tenors. Besides that, though, I figured I could play my 88H until I died. The only things that were a bit of a crapshoot was high F5, and low C in 7th with the valve. I thought it was just me. In any case, it is a great example of the Eastlake 88Hs that Conn made when Lindberg was blowing it up in the early 2000's and they were pushing the Gen IIs.

I continued to convince myself that my 88H was the end-all-be-all, which was easy to do because the Army began handing me a steady stream of Bach 42Bs that played like crap. "Must be the wide crook", "must be the tight leadpipe", "must be the rotor ports". Paralysis by analysis. I wouldn't realize that all of this stuff was totally moot until a band signed out a beat up T-350 for me to play.

By moot, I mean that Bach vs Conn, wide vs narrow, bell materials, rotor design, crook materials -- all that crap that you think you have choices over at Edwards or Shires -- is completely not worth debating about. The two Edwards I've played now have been so well built and play so easily, that I honestly wouldn't want to tinker with or debate any of the variables. They were both pretty stock designs -- the T-350 was the early 2000's Alessi setup, and the T-396A is stock.

I realized that all the things I tinkered with and thought about and compared between Bach and Conn was meaningless. It was like trying to get two station wagons to compete and tweak them in order to outperform a BMW.

I don't think it's about the brand, or even completely the design, or the materials used. I think it's about how well the builder executed their superior design. This is why there are some Elkhart 88Hs that you won't even be able to pry free from the owner's cold dead hands. That's why the Yamahas that do their versions of classic designs better than the classics are the same. And why, maybe, the new Elkharts aren't the same as the old Elkharts, even if they are the same design.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:46 am

Congrats! I think you have possibly debunked all of the standing assumptions and memes about horns!

I personally think it's all about the player. Some players swear by certain horns at certain times in their playing careers while others swear at them. Same horn, different player or same horn, different time of a player's life. Early on, I tried an 88H and hated it. Now I have a similar one and love it. Early on I tried several King 3B's and hated them. Now I have a King 3B/F and love it. Seems to me the only thing that has changed is me and my perceptions of said horns. Will that continue? I hope to be able to let you know in 5-10 years.

...Geezer
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:59 am

Of course, there are DESIGNS that work better for some than others. But that doesn't mean, for instance, that Courtois' 88H can't be better than an Elkhart 88H, within that design concept.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:10 am

I can also understand a brand-loyalty concept that spans brands. Just b/c I like Kings doesn't mean every horn I own has to be a King. I like both a Yamaha 354 and a Conn 88H because they are different and have different uses that I wouldn't dream of using a King for.

I'm tempted to buy a King 4B or 5B based upon my love of Kings. But I play the 88H b/c it does something that none of my other horns can do as well - play softly with a big, soft sound. Will a King 4B or 5B give me that? I also love the various Conn sizes of tenors for what they can do naturally. I could see myself being brand-loyal to Conn AND King and who knows what, if I had the space and money.

Maybe it's a safer bet and a shorter list to ponder what one couldn't be brand-loyal to, if one played them all extensively to find out!

...Geezer
ttf_Matt K
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Matt K » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:21 am

I went the opposite direction. I had a number of different brands when I started college... mostly out of my student level budget.  Now I only have Shires with the exception of a Duo Gravis.  I have a Shires bass too, but for the commercial stuff I do the Duo Gravis works really well. Neither horn fit me as well as the small and large bore Shires I have... not sure which direction I'll go with it. Go all-in with Shires or tinker with the Duo Gravis.

But Doug's point is one of the things I like about sticking to all Shires. The overtone series lines up a little differently and intonation wise its easier for me to switch between horns than it used to be.  Additionally, the Shires horns tend to play a little on the large size, so my small bore (508) is easier to switch between the bigger horns I play.


ttf_blast
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_blast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:50 am

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 05:58 AMI do want to jump and add my impression of Chris's comments a little.  I think the major component here is the depth of knowledge in learning a horn that only comes with years.  However, I think a large contributing factor is also the plasticity of youth. In the past, I was a better player than I am now.  Just haven't had the practice time with a kid and another engineering degree.  I was much more able to adapt to different tendencies and tunings than I am now.  I would jump between three manufacturers and 5 bore sizes in 3 different keys and be fairly fluid.  Certainly I know that I was more consistently on center of pitch and tone than I am today.  Enjoy the ability to be malleable while it lasts.

As for the loyalty, yeah, I'm pretty much a Bach guy now.  I just like the sound I get.  I know I posted this someplace else, but even if I sound the same on recording, I just do not feel right playing unsoldered bells.  The feedback from the horn to me playing is not the signal that my brain is expecting and I am unable to retrain myself to hear it.

Cheers,
Andy

I think that if you are playing a lot, you can learn a new instrument at any age.... I got my first Rath when I was 45 and I know Mick's horns as well as Conns and Holtons that I started using in my teens. What I was trying to say is that I would now rather spend time learning music, not new makes of horn.

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_blast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:53 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Yesterday at 06:39 AMIn 2000 I caught an Alain Trudel masterclass. During a ,QnA session he was asked about his Yamaha Trudel mouthpiece. His answer: buy a Bach 61/2AL and play it until there was no plating left on the rim--- just like he did for 10 years, 16 hours a day.
Trudel mentioned he still missed his Elkhart 88H.
Brand loyalty?-- that is where Yamaha gets their R&D from, the cloning and input from players with brand loyalty, not players who played Yamaha for 40 years.

Loyalty? How do you deal with big band trumpet sections who switch mouthpieces between rests and 20 times a gig. ( I kid not).

Chris is correct--- sometimes play a horn for sentimental reasons and let the chips fall where they may, nobody in the audience will know, but you will. Chris is also correct that you may possibly not have an informed opinion about brand loyalty, when you post on the internet that you're just about to have your first lesson.

The thing about the Raths is they play easier than anything else and I love the sound I can get out of them.... but there are people I work with sometimes who are not fans, so as an orchestral player I have backups... just in case.

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_blast » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:55 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 08:10 AMI played my 88H for ten years, for at least two hours nearly every day. I love that trombone. I would do drones and intervals every few days, so I had that trombone pretty well figured out.

I had what you call brand-loyalty, and I bought a Conn alto. I ended up going with a King 3B for my "small" bore, because I couldn't figure out the small Conn tenors. Besides that, though, I figured I could play my 88H until I died. The only things that were a bit of a crapshoot was high F5, and low C in 7th with the valve. I thought it was just me. In any case, it is a great example of the Eastlake 88Hs that Conn made when Lindberg was blowing it up in the early 2000's and they were pushing the Gen IIs.

I continued to convince myself that my 88H was the end-all-be-all, which was easy to do because the Army began handing me a steady stream of Bach 42Bs that played like crap. "Must be the wide crook", "must be the tight leadpipe", "must be the rotor ports". Paralysis by analysis. I wouldn't realize that all of this stuff was totally moot until a band signed out a beat up T-350 for me to play.

By moot, I mean that Bach vs Conn, wide vs narrow, bell materials, rotor design, crook materials -- all that crap that you think you have choices over at Edwards or Shires -- is completely not worth debating about. The two Edwards I've played now have been so well built and play so easily, that I honestly wouldn't want to tinker with or debate any of the variables. They were both pretty stock designs -- the T-350 was the early 2000's Alessi setup, and the T-396A is stock.

I realized that all the things I tinkered with and thought about and compared between Bach and Conn was meaningless. It was like trying to get two station wagons to compete and tweak them in order to outperform a BMW.

I don't think it's about the brand, or even completely the design, or the materials used. I think it's about how well the builder executed their superior design. This is why there are some Elkhart 88Hs that you won't even be able to pry free from the owner's cold dead hands. That's why the Yamahas that do their versions of classic designs better than the classics are the same. And why, maybe, the new Elkharts aren't the same as the old Elkharts, even if they are the same design.


LOVE this post  Image Image Image Image

Chris Stearn
ttf_savio
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_savio » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:59 am

When I started play bass trombone I didn't have a clue about trombones. I got one and played it for 25 years. I can't say I have any more clue today, but I found my conn bass trombones after reading this forum. So when I got my 60h it was love from first note. I just felt this is me. Its like we are married now.

I also like my 70h and Holton because they are good trombones,  but my heart is with 60h.

No matter instrument I like to feel a personal relationship to my trombones.

Leif
ttf_deanmccarty
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Post by ttf_deanmccarty » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:58 pm

It may be psychological, but for me... playing the same brand makes sense.  The tendencies are usually the same or very close... the sound concept will be easier to achieve.  They will "feel" the same.  Etc., etc. 

Over the years I have gone from brand to brand... I play what I like... there was a brief time I was an artist for E.K. Blessing.  I liked their B5... it really sang.  The B88 was OK, and their B98 was... well... it was.  Before that I was entirely a Conn player.  I had a Minick 112H that played great.  I did a lot of sessions on that horn and my Elkhart 6H.  I also had an Elkhart 88H that had a buzz that I just couldn't get rid of.  And it seemed a bit small to me.  Then, after the brief stint with Blessing, I went to Bach.  I had a 50K3 with a gold bell and a lightweight slide, a 42K and a 42T... the K horn had a yellow bell with a standard slide, the T horn had a heavyweight gold bell with a lightweight slide.  My small horn was a 36G with a lightweight bell and slide.  The only horn out of that bunch that REALLY worked was the 36... it was a sweet horn.  But the others just didn't work.

Then I went to S.E. Shires... I had 2 basses, a single and a dependent double.  I had a large tenor, briefly, but did not like it.  And I had a small bore (.500).  The small bore was good, but played really large.  For the first time I went to different brands... I kept the Shires basses, but went with a BAC small bore (the first out of Mike's shop) and a Jupiter large bore with some special order additions.  Both of those horns played extremely well... and the basses were the best I had played on... but they were all so different it started to mess with me a lot.

So... after a LOT of testing, and re-testing... and then testing some more... I collaborated with Rath.  I now have a Rath bass with dependent rotors, a Rath large tenor with a Hagmann valve, and a Rath medium bore straight horn.  All have nickel bells... but that's the only similarity.  The bass has yellow hand and tuning slides, the large tenor has red slides, and the medium has a yellow tuning slide and a nickel hand slide with a very tight nickel venturi.  I also have a JP/Rath alto and small bore.  The alto plays great, and the small bore is my backup/air travel horn.  All of these horns play very similarly... it took me about 35 years to finally figure out exactly what I was looking for.  These horns, paired with Elliott mouthpieces, are THE best instruments I have ever played.  They absolutely work for me.  I'm not about to say they will work for everyone, because that just isn't true... but... the point is... once you find the brand that works... it's easier to stay within that make. 

So... after that LONG story... yes... I am a brand loyalist.  I tried once not to be and it just didn't work for me.  I also like Willson euphoniums and Mirafone tubas... but that's another story.
ttf_wgwbassbone
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:55 pm

I play the following:
Sterling 2B
Elkhart 88H
2 Holton TR 180 bass trombones
Couldn't be more different. Couldn't be more right for me.
ttf_Bach42T
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Bach42T » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:40 pm

I wonder if there are any Jin Bao brand loyalists?  Eastman or Schillers? 
ttf_JohnL
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_JohnL » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:58 pm

Quote from: Bach42T on Yesterday at 03:40 PMI wonder if there are any Jin Bao brand loyalists?  Eastman or Schillers? 
I don'the know about loyalists, but I have run into some people who are pretty enthusiastic about their Schiller.
ttf_ChadA
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_ChadA » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:49 am

I can't afford complete brand loyalty.  Image  My two basses are Shires.  My main tenor is a Getzen 4147IB I got as a demo.  I also have a Conn 8H (Elkhart bell, modern slides), and a Wessex euphonium. 

Would I enjoy a lineup of all Shires trombones? Sure, but I can't afford it and I like the horns I have.  No company is beating down my door to make me one of their artists, so I'll keep my hodge-podge.  Image
ttf_Ellrod
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Ellrod » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:09 am

In the past year, I gravitated to Yamaha. The ergonomics work for me and I'm impressed by the overall feeling of quality. Sort of like a Toyota Camry. I now have a Yam alto, straight tenor and a bass, all bought used, and I couldn't be more pleased. I still have a couple of Shires tenors.
ttf_Matt K
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Matt K » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:09 pm

Quote from: Bach42T on Yesterday at 03:40 PMI wonder if there are any Jin Bao brand loyalists?  Eastman or Schillers? 

You might be surprised. I know a few people who are really enthusiastic about not having the 'best' horn per se, but feeling that they've gotten the best value they can get at a particular price point. I know of at least one person who has a whole collection of Chinese made horns... 2 Mack Brass tubas, 1 Mack Brass Euph, Mack Brass Bass Trumpet, JP Rath smallbore, medium bore, large bore, and bass.
ttf_Dukesboneman
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Dukesboneman » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:45 am

I did some "research" this past weekend with all the horns.
Really no determinable difference , except for the bigger/smaller feel of the horns my 42B, 36, 16MG & 12G all play similar. No surprise there. They are all really good examples of great Bachs.

My new-to-me Getzen Canadian Brass Straight Tenor. Plays really no different from my 42B. Easy to go between the 2.
The 2 horns that are not in that comfort zone for me and require some time alone with them before a performance  are the Weril Alto (and that`s just because I don`t play Alto all that much anymore) - But in it`s defense - the positions and the "Physical Feel" of the horn feels like my Bach`s
The odd man out is my 2B+ SS. If I`m going to play this out, I need to spend some quality time together with this horn, It plays really well but not as free blowing/take all the air you give it like my Bach`s. It`s a little tighter. Slots like a madman and the upper range is beautiful, but I have to get used to it.
My only experience with the Chinese horns is my Selman Rotary Valve Bass Trumpet. Plays in tune , valves work good, nice sound. Will the Philharmonic call me to play the Ring, NO ! But for Jazz and some quintet stuff it works perfect.
ttf_Driswood
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Driswood » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:22 am

Quote from: Bimmerman on Jun 26, 2017, 06:01PM Doug's right, jumping between them is challenging! The 2B partials don't line up at all compared to my Bach. When I was playing a lot, I didn't use the Kings much because of this difference. I dig their sound a lot but the uneven tuning takes some getting used to, and more importantly, takes some getting used to not having to do that when I play the other horns.

I just recently went from a King 3B to a Bach 34B. Compared to the 3B, positions are all over the map! Love the sound and blow of the Bach, and like Dave said, I'm finally getting the sound that was in my head. Adjusting to the position differences and loving it. I had a 16M from 1986 to 2008. Went to a 6H, then the 3B. Had to readjust everytime. The 34 slide positions feel like I remember my 16M feeling.

Jerry Walker
ttf_Nick bastrombone
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Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Nick bastrombone » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:03 am

I playd a lot of conns in the past and one of my favorit was the Conn 89h convertible with light rose brass bell (i love it yeah its a Conn)
Then i go to bass trombone first a Bach 50,not my horn and go to Wilson 551 sound not gor my but great ventiles rotax,
The next us Conn 62hi great sound en playing but the ventiles are not for me (i loved sound and feel ) with cl ventiles to expensive for me.
Short periode a Jupiter1240xo yellow bell, great playing and good slide thayers are lovely! The thing i mis is a powefull sound with crackling outside and some core.
Finaly now a great super horn with a SOUND and Great carrying power and Hagmans the COURTOIS AC550BHR pffff what a horn!!
ttf_Nick bastrombone
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Brand loyalty (?)

Post by ttf_Nick bastrombone » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:03 am

I playd a lot of conns in the past and one of my favorit was the Conn 89h convertible with light rose brass bell (i love it yeah its a Conn)
Then i go to bass trombone first a Bach 50,not my horn and go to Wilson 551 sound not gor my but great ventiles rotax,
The next us Conn 62hi great sound en playing but the ventiles are not for me (i loved sound and feel ) with cl ventiles to expensive for me.
Short periode a Jupiter1240xo yellow bell, great playing and good slide thayers are lovely! The thing i mis is a powefull sound with crackling outside and some core.
Finaly now a great super horn with a SOUND and Great carrying power and Hagmans the COURTOIS AC550BHR pffff what a horn!!
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