Budget alternatives of King 2B

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 8:23 am

I wonder what are plausible and working alternative of a vintage 2B that can work in various settings (big band, small combo playings jazz and funk) and which won't make me to break bank (such as Shires, BAC or Rath). Probably rather light weight small bore instruments that can bark and get brassy, but still sound lyrical if played soft.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue May 02, 2017 8:42 am

Used Yamaha 354?

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 8:51 am

That's good Geez, but I meant about more like new decent brands like Carol Brass and Wessex or stuff that can be easily found in Europe (like Courtois and Selmer). Still the yammie is probably a good way to go.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:05 am

I was going to suggest the Selmer Bolero which really looks like a King 2B, but it may also cost as much as one.

Yamaha 697 or 897

There is a King Tempo (1405?) with a curved bell brace that has a lot of fans in the Salsa world.

An old Conn 4H or Holton 65 may do the job.

Good luck in your search.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am

Used 2Bs can be found for less than even those brands mentioned.

Tat said, the JP Rath student horn that I played was unbelievable. Memory serving it was closer to what you're after vs the Yamaha. It's a little less consistent across the dynamic spectrum than the 354 which is a little heavier. If that's what you want then it's great.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:15 am

Yep, often a used 2B is itself a budget horn. Can be had for not too much.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:10 am

The trouble is, I am not in US. When I add VAT and shipping fees, it is rather rare to find a decent vintage 2B for less than 2000$....which is why I fell for this phoney king copy that I am stuck with now. I will eventually sell it and try to find something hopefully in EU that will sell for a decent price. I am going rather for small bore .480-.500 range rather lightweight.

The biggest setbacks on my current bone is:

1. Slide is too heavy, I'm banging my face especially when trying to make a handslide vibrato
2. Sound is too ...foggy. It is not even dark, just lacks brilliance
3. It is bulky, both soundwise and physically

The trigger gives my some advantage but the trigger sound is very....hornlike.

So basically I will be looking for something around 1000$ or less. It is not an immediate concern, but I will replace it with something later on.

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:12 am

I have a lovely little Courtois 602 which is versatile but have never seen one for sale and I've no idea what price would tempt me!

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:25 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 02, 2017, 10:10AMThe trouble is, I am not in US. When I add VAT and shipping fees, it is rather rare to find a decent vintage 2B for less than 2000$....which is why I fell for this phoney king copy that I am stuck with now. I will eventually sell it and try to find something hopefully in EU that will sell for a decent price. I am going rather for small bore .480-.500 range rather lightweight.

The biggest setbacks on my current bone is:

1. Slide is too heavy, I'm banging my face especially when trying to make a handslide vibrato
2. Sound is too ...foggy. It is not even dark, just lacks brilliance
3. It is bulky, both soundwise and physically

The trigger gives my some advantage but the trigger sound is very....hornlike.

So basically I will be looking for something around 1000$ or less. It is not an immediate concern, but I will replace it with something later on.

1. Perhaps you need to re-tune your horn so that 1st position is further out.

2. Try a smaller and/or a shallower cup and modify your approach to play more brilliantly.

3. I got nuthin'. I don't like bulky-feeling horns either.

Trigger notes can sometimes be a challenge to get sounding like non-trigger notes. But then again, the same thing can be said for notes in alternate positions. Practice. Practice. Practice.

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:38 am

I got a Wedge 7C that I am really comfortable with. The sound became much better (especially in the high register) with it, than with the one that came with the horn.

I definetly will go smaller. I need to practice my slide technique, which is still way below what I aim for.

The good thing is that I already know what I look for (mp wise I am there, but the horn is not right, though I sound fairly good on it for a 5 month novice).

What I want to know is every plausible option horn wise so I don't do the same mistake twice (this was supposed to be a King 3BF, which would probably make me to feel "at home" a lot more while is a lot more something in the line of Bach 42, it is large shank .547, bell is probably 8.5)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:43 am

A .525 is more versatile, you can use it in chamber, jazz, and symphonic settings if you are a 2nd or 3rd chair.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:48 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 02, 2017, 10:38AMI got a Wedge 7C that I am really comfortable with. The sound became much better (especially in the high register) with it, than with the one that came with the horn.

I definetly will go smaller. I need to practice my slide technique is still way below what I aim for.

The good thing is that I already know what I look for (mp wise I am there, but the horn is not right, though I sound fairly good on it for a 5 month novice).

What I want to know is every plausible option horn wise so I don't do the same mistake twice (this was supposed to be a King 3BF, which would probably make me to feel "at home" a lot more while is a lot more something in the line of Bach 42, it is large shank .547, bell is probably 8.5)

My King 3B/F would be my "desert island horn". Play it like a jazz horn high, hard & fast with a Bach 12C; concert mellow with a Bach 7; symphonico with a Bach 5GS; pseudo-bass with a Bach 3. Use the trigger or not. But in your neck-of-the woods, maybe a tough affordable find.

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:51 am

Quote from: Bach42T on May 02, 2017, 10:43AMA .525 is more versatile, you can use it in chamber, jazz, and symphonic settings if you are a 2nd or 3rd chair.

Well...
To make everything clear, I found a maker in Germany that can and will make me the superbone a la Schagerl (rotary valves) that will be a little bigger (probably about .510) that will have interchangeable bells (one small in nickel-silver and a bigger one with high copper content and a different flair) will fit most my playing needs (for the moment I am not playing in any big ensembles like symphony orchestra, so I don't need a really classical horn)

The 2B like horn I will need for cases when I don't want to bring the superbone (probably mostly latin and funk, probably some jazz) where I can go with a smaller and lighter horn, mostly small/combo soloist kind of gig.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue May 02, 2017 2:03 pm

From this side of the Atlantic, it seems that most of the European makers are either inexpensive but not highly regarded (Amati comes to mind) or highly regarded but expensive (Thein, Schagerl, etc.).

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Brass instruments made by Amati's are average at best. I wonder if there are any pre-communist brands from that area (I never seen one or heard about, which means that they are either bad quality or rather rare) - I heard of decent trumpets but not so much about trombones - correct me if I am wrong.

Both Schagerl and Thein build good stuff, but seems to be rather expensive. French brands, on other hands, seems to be somewhere in the middle, at least pricewise. I may have a look into Selmer/Courtois direction.

I wonder about older B&S - is there any and are they any good?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:31 pm

B&S made before or even shortly after reunification aren't known for being of particularly high quality.

One make you might look into is Schenkelaars; they were based in The Netherlands and seem to have had a respectable reputation. They made some models that were similar to Olds instruments at one point (some information indicates that they produced instruments sold under the Olds name after Olds shut down in 1979).

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:54 pm

There are a coupe of King Tempos on Ebay. Go to ebay and search: King Tempo trombone nickel

some perspectives on the Tempo here...
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=79898.0

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:33 am

I would keep an eye on King Tempo auctions, sounds like a very good way to go.

The other two I am still hesitating about is the Olds Studio and the Reynolds Emperor Deluxe (the latter not very often on sale apparently).

But would be nice to have some general feed-back on these 2 models (vintage, of course).

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:37 am

King Tempo

ttf_Orffbone · Post by **ttf_Orffbone** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:39 am

Another vote for the King Tempo here

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:29 am

Talk to DJ!

maybe Holton 65 or 67 or 69

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:57 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 02, 2017, 10:10AMThe trouble is, I am not in US. When I add VAT and shipping fees, it is rather rare to find a decent vintage 2B for less than 2000$....which is why I fell for this phoney king copy that I am stuck with now. I will eventually sell it and try to find something hopefully in EU that will sell for a decent price. I am going rather for small bore .480-.500 range rather lightweight.

There's a guy selling an Olds "self balancing" trombone on ebay UK. It has no counterweight,looks in top condition...asking for £800.

May be worth a look?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Wed May 03, 2017 10:08 am

I have a very good playing Yamaha 697Z I could sell for $500 plus shipping. I picked it up at the same price, just cause it was so unbelievably cheap. I like it, but I'm not going to get much use out of it. Fine as is, but I haven't had anything done to it. It's got some dings and scratches, but it's an excellent alternative to a 2B.

Just FYI - I leave on Saturday 5/6 and won't be back for 6 weeks.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed May 03, 2017 12:48 pm

Olds recording or super are both excellent and cheaper than a king 3b or 2b

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Wed May 03, 2017 1:47 pm

The yamaha 697 actually feels like a 2B. Neither of those Olds horns really plays like a 2B.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 03, 2017 2:23 pm

I was viewing some clips on people playing Olds on youtube (I know that's not the best thing to do, but I am just gathering info for now) and neither of them seemed to sound especially up there what I would like.

King Tempo seems to get quite closer to what I have in mind.

The Yammie is quite close to what I have in mind as well. So I will probably keep an open eye on those two till the moment I get to sell what I have at the moment and replace it with.

The other "thing" I like is the David Steinmeyer Martin, but it doesn't seem like a viable option - It turns out that are not many out there, which probably means chances are slim to get one for cheap

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Wed May 03, 2017 2:57 pm

I have a 2B and a 697z for sale in the Classifieds. Check them out...

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:52 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 02, 2017, 08:51AMThat's good Geez, but I meant about more like new decent brands like Carol Brass and Wessex or stuff that can be easily found in Europe (like Courtois and Selmer). Still the yammie is probably a good way to go.
Unfortunately, Carol Brass doesn't do Trombones anymore, or so they told me last year at the Frankfurt Music Fair. However, I can tell you that Wessex has a copy of the Martin/Holton "Urbie". .500 bore, lightweight nickel-silver slide, Gold brass or nickel-plated over gold brass 7-3/4 inch bell. The model number is PB-4501. Have a look for it on the Wessex Tubas website. The price will surprise you.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu May 04, 2017 9:07 am

Quote from: chipolah on May 04, 2017, 08:52AMUnfortunately, Carol Brass doesn't do Trombones anymore, or so they told me last year at the Frankfurt Music Fair. However, I can tell you that Wessex has a copy of the Martin/Holton "Urbie". .500 bore, lightweight nickel-silver slide, Gold brass or nickel-plated over gold brass 7-3/4 inch bell. The model number is PB-4501. Have a look for it on the Wessex Tubas website. The price will surprise you.

The price surprises ME!

PB-4501

No guarantees for sounding like Urbie, though! lol

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu May 04, 2017 9:11 am

I spoke to a CB dealer just just two days ago, he didn't say anything about not building trombones anymore. That Wessex trombone - did you ever played it?

BTW, I got a pretty decent sound, my weakness for the moment is more low register (I mean pedals) and slide tehcnique. Even on my chinese trombone I can sound pretty decent, it is just not what I look for in a trombone (it is too broad and lacks brilliance, and I can assure you, it is not me).

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:39 am

Quote from: BGuttman on May 02, 2017, 09:05AMI was going to suggest the Selmer Bolero which really looks like a King 2B, but it may also cost as much as one.

Yamaha 697 or 897

There is a King Tempo (1405?) with a curved bell brace that has a lot of fans in the Salsa world.

An old Conn 4H or Holton 65 may do the job.

Good luck in your search.

To correct things the Selmer Bolero is more like a King 3b, but a good horn it is, and you can find them pretty cheap. A Conn 4h is truly a substitute that can replace a King 2b but not dual bore.

Ebay is the place to look but unfortunately not very cheap anymore. If you win you know you are the one person in the world who was prepared to pay the most for that trombone. This is not a winner to me.

I guess Wessex is a good and cheap substitute for many horns. I have a friend who bought the Urbie Martin copy as well as three barock trombones and the King 7b bass copy. He sounds good on all of them and he is a professional player. If you can spend more money and want new then try Jupiter.

Personally I would go for a used King 2b+ from ebay in good condition. That is a good horn, but will probably cost you more than $1000. Not dual bore but I would choose it rather than a 2b. It cuts better.

I have considered a Wessex Contra and would buy one if available on Thomann, but it does not seem to happen.

/Tom

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:42 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 04, 2017, 09:11AMI spoke to a CB dealer just just two days ago, he didn't say anything about not building trombones anymore. That Wessex trombone - did you ever played it?

BTW, I got a pretty decent sound, my weakness for the moment is more low register (I mean pedals) and slide tehcnique. Even on my chinese trombone I can sound pretty decent, it is just not what I look for in a trombone (it is too broad and lacks brilliance, and I can assure you, it is not me).

FYI. Chipolah designed it so I guess he played it too !

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu May 04, 2017 2:51 pm

Quote from: vegasbound on May 04, 2017, 11:42AMFYI. Chipolah designed it so I guess he played it too !

Well...being relatively a novice both in trombone playing and as a forum member, forgive my ignorance at times...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 04, 2017 3:18 pm

This Ebay posting is actually a horn that I am selling:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-K-Blessing-Artist-Model-Trombone-Vintage-1965-/302287868891?hash=item4661c2d3db:g:ncsAAOSw4CFYw0w7

If you are interested in purchasing, let me know.

-Steve Nieckarz

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:55 pm

Having been a player of King 2Bs for most of my life as a trombonist, I feel I need to mention something...

there are no "budget" alternatives to a 2b. There are no alternatives period...

There are a couple of horns that are close.

The Yamaha mentioned earlier (697?) and the current model (the 897z). They do play a little tighter than the 2Bs I prefer (early 50's) but they actually feel pretty close to the late 40's horns in the blow and to the early 60's horns in the lip slur/nimbleness area.

The MD horn shires makes. Considered a great improvement on the 2B. This is one heck of a horn.

The Rath R11 - I haven't played this, but a rath artist I know has and he tells me it plays like a 2B (albeit a tight one.) I found the R2 (a .508 bore horn?!?!) Felt like a 2B but filled up like a great 2B+ on steroids.

The newer Fedchock XO horn feels like a Jiggs horn, but better.

Something small or dual bore isn't a 2B and won't feel like it just because it's small or dual bore. Do you want a vintage 2B or do you want a shiny new one. I and pretty much anyone on here can find you a good vintage 2B. If you want shiny, you can buy a new one, but those don't play like a 2B either.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:00 am

Regarding Yamaha:

I am a bit puzzeled, what is exactly the difference between 891Z and 897Z?

After some reading a see that one has a little larger bore and larger bell

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:07 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 05, 2017, 08:00AMRegarding Yamaha:

I am a bit puzzeled, what is exactly the difference between 891Z and 897Z?

The 6/891 is a 508 like a 3b, the 97 is dual bore 484-490 like a 2b, the 6/851 is a 500 bore.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:20 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 04, 2017, 11:55PM
The Rath R11 - I haven't played this, but a rath artist I know has and he tells me it plays like a 2B (albeit a tight one.) I found the R2 (a .508 bore horn?!?!) Felt like a 2B but filled up like a great 2B+ on steroids.

Just to clarify Zacs comments on the Rath stuff the model most like a 2B is the Rath R12 and no it doesn't necessarily play tight as it depends which set up (lead pipe, metals) you choose!!!
The R2 is a straight .510 bore and I haven't played one example of that model that plays anything like a 2B.... Different animal entirely, more in the direction of a Bach 16M if anything but with more snap crackle and pop.

My own choice is the R12 and I love it....... I was a 2B player for much of my early career.

Hope this helps?
Chris.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:28 am

The R2 I played was all nickel with a 2 pipe. I played a bunch of horns that night, including my 53 2B that i've played for about 15 years.

Of all the horns I played that night, it felt most like a small bore king and most like my 2B, just a tad bigger.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 9:42 am

I must admit that I admire this nickel Rath, but it is out of my $$$ reach. Or at least for the moment.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri May 05, 2017 9:56 am

We shouldn't lose sight of the original query. It's for a budget alternative to a King 2B.

A nice used 2B is usually not too expensive, except that there are some serious taxes and duties imposed if the OP tries to import it into Bulgaria.

A used 2B already in EU might be a possibility. Yamaha is readily imported into Europe and might be a choice. Would a Weite 1 German trombone be somewhat suitable? Is there a Besson, Courtois, Couesnon, or Selmer Paris instrument that would work?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 am

Someone earlier suggested Selmer Bolero and some small bore Courtois (I can't recall the model).

Maybe I will put all together in one post both for myself and any readers that may interested in this info.
Don't know about the besson road though...

However, it appears that Besson had a professional small/medium bore trombone/ from a line called Sessionaire, but it had a larger (8 inch) bell. I found this on another forum's archives http://www.oocities.org/yuenli_low/trombone/discontspecs.html

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri May 05, 2017 10:37 am

In addition to the Bolero, Selmer Paris made some other small bore tenors that are pretty well regarded. There seem to have been several variants on the Model 23 (.500" bore). Of course, they're not really an alternative to a 2B, but they are good horns.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:15 pm

Stewbones43 knows all about the Sessionaire. Perhaps he will chip in....

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:26 pm

I'm a little confused about the used thing having import duties and whatnot on them. Are only used products given a penalty while new products are not? You can find a used 2b for as little as $500 in the US... I would be really surprised if you were charged 3x-5x its declared value while a Wessex or something has nothing imposed on it. Am I missing something?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:51 pm

Quote from: Matt K on May 05, 2017, 12:26PMI'm a little confused about the used thing having import duties and whatnot on them. Are only used products given a penalty while new products are not? You can find a used 2b for as little as $500 in the US... I would be really surprised if you were charged 3x-5x its declared value while a Wessex or something has nothing imposed on it. Am I missing something?
No, you're not. Any goods coming from outside EU is normally subject to the same custom & shipping taxes.

The only real differences are:

1. Goods for declared value below the taxable (VAT) value
2. Goods provenant/made in EU (Courtois, Selmer, Besson etc)
3. Goods imported in Mass (big shipment save on shipping).

I'm not ruling out the possibility of finding a deal on a vintage 2B. However, 2B in mint condition on such a price, though not unheard of.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:39 pm

Ah I see what you're saying. You may wish to consider finding one and having it refurbished by someone if the looks are important to you. The VAT would only apply to the person shipping it to you since the labor would have been outside of the EU, correct? So, for example, you purchase an $800 used 2B in decent condition and have it relacquered for $500. (Those figures are fairly reasonable). You import it for $500 because that's what you purchased it for? Obviously I don't deal with trade laws very often so I could be talking totally out the side of my neck but if I'm not mistaken may be your best bet.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:21 pm

When I type on my phone it's a disaster, but you got the general idea.

Personally I don't care much about the looks of an instrument, but I perfrom often outside near the seaside, so I may ruin a good instrument which is otherwise OK just as is because of himidity and salter air. Which may force me to refurbish an instrument just to minimize impact of athmosphere conditions and maintenance efforts. What I care are the mechanics of the instruments (no big dings, inner slide plating should be in good condition).

The other problem is that refurbishing in my area is a bit of problem - that's why I would prefer an instrument that can be used just as it is (I have to send the instrument abroad, though note necessarily far away to get it refurbished.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:36 pm

What's the import rule on gifts? I know DJ Kennedy often calls his shipments gifts to some areas of the world.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:42 pm

I think that I will get it resumed all in one post:

Cheap(er) vintage alternatives:

1. King Tempo - salsa favourite
2.Conn 4H
3. Holton 65
4. Holton Galaxy TR401 (dual bore, nickel silver bell)
5. Selmer Bolero
6. Courtois 602

New (or at least not considered vintage yet)

1. Yamaha 354
2. Yamaha 697
3. Yamaha 897Z (probably will cost as much as a 2B)
4. Wessex PB-4501
5. XO Brass 1632gl-lt (not much cheaper, but seems like a good alternative). It is a medium bore though...

Not Budget at all - $$$

1. Shires MD
2. Rath R2 with nickel silver bell

We can put a lot more there, like Thein, Schagerl and few more.

Besson Sessionaire still under ?

Let me know if I got anything wrong.