a discussion of music and the trombone

ttf_Bonefide
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Bonefide »

the only dragon i want to be chasing is the one that hides in that "right note" state of mind...
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: Bonefide on May 16, 2010, 10:32PMthe only dragon i want to be chasing is the one that hides in that "right note" state of mind...

Lot of ways to chase that sucker. Be careful.
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

independent of instrument changes, does anyone have anything to offer some of the younger folks here on the forum in regard to playing different styles/genres?  it seems that some are quick to say, "this horn is for jazz and this horn is for rock and this horn is for orchestra and this horn for reggae....", but we never delve into the conceptual changes necessary to sound authentic in the different genres. 

thinking of music as a language, each genre represents a different dialect.  diction and pronunciation change from style to style. 

thoughts? 
ttf_john sandhagen
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_john sandhagen »

All that..

For the tenor guys the concept is kinda part of the horn and all the intellectual items you mentioned...

For bass trombonist, it's all in our head.  I mean you can have a light bell for popping or a tank for Bruckner, but with a little work you should be able to pop your tank and keep things together on the light horn.

When I think of Big band, I think of the trombone as an extension of the trumpets...bright, hard, forward.

When I think of rock bands, I think of Chicago/Dick Shearer...No prisoners!

When I think of orchestral, I think of the trombone as a bridge between the trumpets and the horns.  Fuller and more round, not heavy very often, not dark though.  The trumpet concept is different, so the way trombones blend is too.

Brass band/concert band...bigger brighter.

Chamber music...this gets interesting, because you have to be a chameleon...soloist, section, working with everyone...much more "music related" vs "job related".


ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 17, 2010, 10:54AM

Chamber music...this gets interesting, because you have to be a chameleon...soloist, section, working with everyone...much more "music related" vs "job related".



i tend to have to play this way more often than not.  one of my main gigs is a little big band.  3 saxes, 2 trpts and 1 bone.  when i write for the band, the bone is the glue to fill out the saxes as a 2nd tenor voice or fill out the trumpets as a 3rd trumpet.  that means i'm consistently adjusting my timbre to blend with whatever situation presents itself. 

dg
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,51543.msg726646.html#msg726646

is that what folks here are getting from this discussion?  if so, that's sad.


ttf_Bonefide
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Bonefide »

...I don't think this thread should get personal.  Image  We already acknowledged the need for the nuts and bolts, and understand that will continually be hashed out elsewhere on the forum.  This thread is on to something completely above each one of us, and shouldn't concern itself with anything other than the act of making music on the trombone.  How different people approach making music, mentally---no, spiritually.  IF music is a spiritual thing for the individual.  Which, let's be honest, it should be.  ...inmyhumbleopinion.

I play with a band I find hard to classify. We have a bass/rhythm guitar player, effect-heavy guitarist, keys/tenor sax/clarinet, trombone, and drums.   When asked what kind of band I play in, I will respond with these words, in no particular order: jam, electronic, dub, reggae, rock, funk.  When I was asked to play with them, I was a little overwhelmed.  I wasn't happy with where my playing was (not that I am now) and I had a hard time trying to find space in the music for a trombone.  After enough playing with the guys, I began forming sound concepts for each individual song.  On any given day, we'll play a laid back reggae song, followed by a fast electronic jam in 7, then a pseudo-middle eastern ballad, followed by an afrobeat tune.  One tone just won't cut it.

I play on a variety of horns with the group, though not as a musical choice.  It's purely situational: where I'm leaving from, where I'm going, etc.  From a 2B to a Shires bass, I have to make it work.  So in order to get some sort of consistency, I simply envision the sound I want.  My mind is filled with the sound I want to produce, the music I want to make, regardless of which horn made it to the gig.  and it works!  This was a huge breakthrough for me. So simple.

I'm sure many of you have figured this out already.  I just figured it was relevant to contribute to this music-making discussion.  My ability to make music on the trombone skyrocketed when I started mentally concentrating on my sound.  I've been able to find that space in the eclectic jams, and fill it with the sound I want.

Apologies to all who sifted through this post for the semi-incoherent rambling and inconsistent grammar.  I'm no wordsmith.  Image
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Bonefide on May 18, 2010, 11:58AM...I don't think this thread should get personal.  Image 


i don't intend to get personal.  i'm just curious if that's how my words portray my intent.  perhaps, i need to be more careful in the articulation of my thoughts via the written word. 

i'm certainly disappointed...and that disappointment is in myself.  i have not succeeded in sharing my enthusiasm for music effectively, if the previously mentioned sentiment is widely shared. 

disappointed.

dg
ttf_john sandhagen
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_john sandhagen »

As someone once said,"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture..."

And I think it was meant in jest.

Bobby Shew did a clinic at Cal Poly a few years ago.  One thing he talked about was the difference between serious and sincere.  He said many people take music seriously...to their detriment.  Serious has a negative connotation...while sincere is much more positive.

I played in a big band last night, last rehearsal of the year.  We sightread some charts, some good but very dated, some McConnell charts as a tribute to him, some...well, strange charts...Lots of humor was necessary, given the awful roadmaps, the smeared copy, Jensen page turns, just weird charts...maybe some gallows humor also, but it still made for an enjoyable evening.
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

on the subject of sounds/timbres for different types of music...

as a composer/arranger, i like to re-orchestrate larger pieces to work with small ensembles so if for instance i feel like being miles for a night, i can whip out springsville and my ship - and do those with a much smaller band than was intended - and do the re-orchestrations in such a way that they can be mixed and matched with unintended instruments.  in the practice room and on other people's gigs i work on the right "language" or "voice" i need for a specific gig - but on my own stuff or in more open settings i try to stick to my own brand of baby-talk.  i also encourage other musicians playing my music to shed any pre-conceived notions of what is appropriate and give me their personal idea of what sounds good.  feel free to edit parts as necessary (add/leave out/displace, etc...)  I do this because i still like the surprise i get from hearing a chart played for the first time - and shedding my ego and letting the guys do their thing was a way for me to experience that every time.  a lot of my scores turn into something completely different after a few performances.  i like that. 

i think one obstacle to finding one's voice is the thought "what would ____________ think about this..." - it can better us but it can lead us into making decisions that aren't our own decisions.  I think  a balance needs to be found.  We owe our spiritual pre-cursors the respect of listening, learning and studying their work, but we also owe it to them to contribute our own words and prayers to the book that is still being written - whether they would agree or not.

as important as it is in any music to learn the ways of the masters, it is just as important to forge your own way.  My path isn't the same as anyone's - hopefully all our paths will intersect at some point, but they can't be the same.
ttf_Bonefide
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Bonefide »

Quote from: D Gibson on May 18, 2010, 12:18PM i have not succeeded in sharing my enthusiasm for music effectively, if the previously mentioned sentiment is widely shared.
On the contrary, I think you have shared your enthusiasm for music in a much more articulate manner than nearly anything else I've read on this forum regarding the music.  In addition, you have prompted many other well-thought posts on the subject, from a variety of users.  I think the thread should stay on that topic; no need for disappointment.  At the very least, I feel as though I've gained a deeper insight into music making on the trombone from this thread.  Can't say that about most things I've read here.

Off to play a gig with aforementioned electronic/dub/funk/reggae/jam band.  Time to put my money where my mind is...
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: D Gibson on May 18, 2010, 12:18PM
i don't intend to get personal.  i'm just curious if that's how my words portray my intent.  perhaps, i need to be more careful in the articulation of my thoughts via the written word. 

i'm certainly disappointed...and that disappointment is in myself.  i have not succeeded in sharing my enthusiasm for music effectively, if the previously mentioned sentiment is widely shared. 

disappointed.

dg

To the contrary, I think people appreciated the need for this thread and understood your point in starting it. The post from the other thread was a lighthearted jape, IMHO.

ttf_JP
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_JP »

I listen to a lot music from the past (jazz masters, and legit guys).

And I listen to a lot of music from the present (CD's, MP3's, YouTube).

And I listen to a lot of music from the future (live perf, educ. groups, etc.)

What I notice is that there is very few trombone oriented music (yeah, I know, some of you will come up with dozens, where are the hundreds? Thousands?)

But, back to topic. The incredible musicians alive are right here right now. Wycliffe Gordon, Alex Iles, Andy Martin, Mark Nightingale, and all the classical guys...

It is not about the trombone, it is about music made sometimes by trombonists.

It is nice that there are a lot of fine musicians playing the trombone.

It is wonderful that the quality of music is so high, regardless of the instrument.
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

One thing I've been thinking about is that the trombone does a lot of things very easily and beautifully that are very difficult on other instruments, and is challenged to do things that are easy on other instruments.

If you listen to old jazz, the trombone's role was 'sounding like a trombone'. The whole tailgate thing. A lot of tromboning today is 'trying to sound less like a trombone.' My old Leonard Feather book talks about how people first hearing JJ couldn't believe he wasn't playing some kind of valved instrument. I don't agree, but it expresses a certain attitude about the trombone--hey, the guy's so good, you can hardly tell it's a trombone!

The first time I heard Bill Watrous as a youngster, I practically died and fell in it--how's he doing that? At the same time, I was starting to appreciate guys like Glenn Ferris and Roswell Rudd and Bruce Fowler, who seemed willing to explore the inherent weirdness of the trombone. I'm not commenting on the chops of those guys, just pointing out that they weren't trying not to sound like trombone players.

I understand that this stuff has to be controlled--you don't want to listen to someone playing very conventional music with bad slide technique--but is there room in the world for new players who want to do something that is beautiful without being conventionally virtuosic? Is there an Ornette Coleman of the trombone out there?
ttf_RedHotMama
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_RedHotMama »

Quote from: Piano man on May 18, 2010, 04:34PMTo the contrary, I think people appreciated the need for this thread and understood your point in starting it. The post from the other thread was a lighthearted jape, IMHO.

Absolutely. This is an excellent topic leading to all sorts of interesting discussions which will undoubtedly continue for many weeks. Everyone recognises it as such and it was long overdue. However, I would be extremely sorry if we took ourselves so seriously that we couldn't accept a very, very gentle leg-pull from a well-respected and normally serious-minded fellow member....

I confess to being completely old-fashioned in my view of what the trombone should do. As has been said, it is great at doing certain things and has a unique mechanism to enable it to do so. In jazz, I see it as a counterpoint to the rest of the front line and think it should provide a lower melodic harmony. To push the limits is a natural human trait, but I believe that "high and fiddly", particularly in ensemble sections of jazz, should be left to the reeds and trumpets. Where is the contrast, the flavour, the variety, the interest, if we are all selfishly striving to push our instruments to their limits (or our own limits), in other words competing to do very similar things, rather than striving together to make good music?

I can name a UK band which is particularly bad for this. It calls itself an "all-star" band and comprises members who are all "ex" one famous band or another. In fact, it is merely a collection of seven musicians trying to score points off each other. I don't call that a band and it does NOT make for enjoyable listening.

I'm not saying one shouldn't push the limits of what is considered possible. Of course not! Even though I love early jazz, I don't want the genre to stagnate. And of course I want to see innovative talent and hear new voices! Such people take the music to a whole new level. I'm also not saying that such people cannot be supportive band members, and I know that having a "star" in the band can be inspiring for other band members and audiences alike. I just believe that making good music, together, should be a priority.
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

I'm not really complaining about one style or another. It just seems that jazz saxophonists 'dare to be ugly' a little more. I think it's a psychological thing--maybe it's so hard for trombonists to 'tame the beast' that people concentrate on that, or the fear that playing that's not conventional would be taken as unskilled.
The effect is that the range of sounds the trombone can make is somewhat lightly used.
ttf_Bonefide
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Bonefide »

Roswell Rudd.  Dares to be ugly, embraces his "slush pump".  In a different thread, someone linked this slideshow of him with commentary.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/11/21/travel/escapes/20071123_RUDD_FEATURE.html

I love how he plays different colors!  That opened up my mind.
ttf_rpingrey
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_rpingrey »

Roswell! - there's a musician of the highest order.

There are so many Ornettes of the trombone world.  George Lewis, Roz, Wolter Wierbos, Ray Anderson, Gary Valente, many many more.  Oh the poor saxes, they have only one, we have so many!  The saxophone world has so much reified history to deal with, we have nothing but unexplored sonic territories.  Set sail for the sun!
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

I'm not saying there aren't any--I named Roswell and a couple of others. I'm just saying maybe we're intimidating ourselves into playing too damn pretty. The trombone should OWN the beautiful ugly. While the saxes are playing crazy stuff and scaring everyone, we're worrying that someone heard our slide move.
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

frank lacy.
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

A lot of the discussion on the forum has to do with conventional technique--developing slide and articulation technique that makes the trombone sound closer to the articulation of other instruments. Makes sense, because that's the application most of us are going to see.

Still, one of the reasons most players don't use quarter-tones is that they're too hard to play. They're a snap on trombone. How many guys use them? Trumpet and sax players sometimes use smooth glissandos to show off their technique--trombonists seem to avoid them because they're too easy.

So, here's my question:

Do the Monks and Ornettes of the world necessarily learn conventional technique first?
Is there room in the trombone world for someone who finds some new sounds from the horn without necessarily learning the traditional vocabulary and technique?
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_savio »

I  was  listen Elvis concert in Honolulu on youtube. There is two things that interest me about this concert. His musicality, and the great bass trombone playing in this concert.

When I listen the hole concert I understand why he was famous. His clothes, his behavior, his wild life(or maybe it was the news paper that make it wild)

Maybe it was,a big part of it  but with out his musicality and sound/voice he would not be anything.  I give a link to this concert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTZi7VOCj78&feature=related


Many of us trombone players will laugh of Elvis especially when compare it yo high level jazz or classical performers.  But if you listen the hole concert its music made by one great musician who have a wide range of styles and do express music very easy.

If we cold express our trombone voice like his voice, his musicality, his love for music, we should be glad.

But most of us  will never do it. We use most of our time in how to chose a trombone. What trombone is proper to play in what setting and style.  Just think about it. We use a lot of time just to choose the right trombone, mouthpiece, gold or yellow brass, the story is endless. How to use the tongue, how to get the right sound, how to make the air moving. And while do this we forget the music. And time is going away. The strange thing is we keep on with this even if we don't have to. Even when we can play the trombone well.

We forget to use our time in whats fun and important.

I did use Elvis as an example but most singers would be a good example.  Just think to express your trombone that way. No trombone player can do it.  I did mention a mother singing a song for her child in another tread. Most of us cant  do that on our trombones.

I  know I often dismiss music, music styles, singers, performers, musicians.  I should never do. If I do I'm going into a small niche and life would be boring. Therefore I like Elvis.   


Cheers

Leif

ttf_ntap
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_ntap »

I actually had a similar experience today, Leif.  An acquaintance of mine from high school is entering a "sing like John Mayer" contest in the San Francisco area, and he has been spamming everyone to vote for him online.  I checked out his profile on the site, not thinking it would be much...Boy was I wrong.

Sure, the progression wasn't that hip,

and him singing over just a drum, bass and guitar didn't provide the lushness of a big band or color of a good pianist's comping...

But his voice!!

Man!

He was able to own every word, every sound, every inflection; he made it all his own.  That to me is success right there, and it's all you need for good music.

There's an anecdote that has been going around (It may have originated from Dave Liebman, but please, PLEASE do not quote me on this because I could be wrong...) but it relates to Kenny G.  It goes something like...
"Kenny G has won.  He has his own sound, and has carved out a style his own."

Now....Do I agree with this?  No, not at all, I don't know if it's really true.  But it's something to consider, and it challenges us to give our attention to the the lamest, most commercialized, insulting stuff out there, something which I believe we must do if we're to remain honest musicians.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_savio »

Today people try to make their own style, make something new, make some thats unique. Some try it desperate because they feel thats the clue. I think thats a good thing but it could also be break or stop. The reason is we try to think our way to make new things. Or we try to work out new things.  It could happen but I doubt it. The answear is in our own musical mind. It have to come a natural way. And its not enough, it have to reach  other people. It have to touch other people. One way or another. Sooner or later.  The message have to be read somewhere or sometime.  The point is to make a personal message you feel is "your" message and is "your" musical personality. My point is not force it. Work? yes, think? yes. But let the time and the child that play inside decide.

I believe thats the clue to almost everything inside music. No matter if we play as amateurs in a School Band, as pro players, as composers, or as a listener. The music already is inside ourself, we ust have to find it and enjoy it.   

Leif
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

And i think to add to that beautiful post, Lief, it helps to know the masters as well as you can - they had the same issue with the child inside trying to get out - and by hearing how they did it, maybe we get a little insight into how we can get the ghost out.

hope that makes sense...

And speaking of music, I've been teetering back and forth between Spanish Harlem Orch and Chris Potter Underground today.  Just too much good music out there.  If I can produce one small iota of what guys like this have put out, I'll die a happy man.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: Exzaclee on Jul 08, 2010, 07:36PM....... it helps to know the masters as well as you can - they had the same issue with the child inside trying to get out - and by hearing how they did it, maybe we get a little insight into how we can get the ghost out.

hope that makes sense...



Yes, it make sense to me anyway. I would say exactly, Exzaclee .   Image

There are so much demands everywhere, play like that, play like this, or play this way not this way.....to much serious thoughts. Well, its needed sometimes, of course.  But we forget to bring the child out. Try things for fun, see what happens, dear to play wrong, explore things, listen around and get some ideas. All just for fun. Not to get better, not to make things perfect like all want. Just to "play" and explore whats inside our self.  Can be fun sometimes. 

Leif
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

children have not yet learned to fear what others think.  we should try and remain child-like in that way, for sure.
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

i feel like reviving this thread, i got a lot out of it.  I was listening to "A Little Somethin'" (David Gibson) earlier.  If anyone here hasn't yet picked up this album, they should.
ttf_ntap
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_ntap »

In that same vein, I just got my copy of the American Rath Pack - if anyone here doesn't have it, check it out - a must for every trombonist.


ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: ntap on Jan 23, 2011, 11:10PMIn that same vein, I just got my copy of the American Rath Pack - if anyone here doesn't have it, check it out - a must for every trombonist.



nick,

the goal of the project was MUSIC on the TROMBONE.  i hope it comes off as such. 

dg
ttf_ntap
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_ntap »

Just finished really listening to the whole thing through.  It did come off as music, not just great trombone playing.  A great record. 
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE(r)

I've thought all this time that the Cobbler was titled the Gobbler - it's got that down home thanksgiving dinner kind of feel.  I guess it's about shoe makers and all this time i've had visions of family gatherings and cranberry sauce.

It's my morning ear-worm. 
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Nope...it's a delicious dessert with fruit filling.
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

Kind of like the tune... i guess i was close with my first impression?

bwah behp!  (bohp buhn) Behp! (bohp buhn...) behbadobahdudehp!

you must get as excited as i do about well prepared desserts
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Exzaclee on Feb 01, 2011, 02:33PMKind of like the tune... i guess i was close with my first impression?

bwah behp!  (bohp buhn) Behp! (bohp buhn...) behbadobahdudehp!

you must get as excited as i do about well prepared desserts

there's a story that goes with it.  can't tell it here.  you dig?
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

dig... i'll call you about it sometime if you don't mind
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

indeed.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_savio »

Oohh its a long time since somebody post here. I have one more post that maybe fit inside this topic. I don't know. But maybe it fit here so I don't have to start a new tread. Its my usual Norwegian/English so you are warned.

I have listen a lot to the high end players. Both tenor and bass players. Trying to figure out both what they do and not do. When listen close, the things they not do is interesting. Compared to me, they do less work and still it sounds like they get much more music out. I figure out they have one thing in common. Less is more. They do what they need to do with more finesse. So the result seem to be more. And they don't force anything to much. I believe this is because of a great technique and also an intelligent way to make music out of the instruments weak and good sides. If you see what I mean.

Its not fair if I compare to me, because my technical skills are not at the level where you can do anything you like. I don't think these good players have so much more musical feel inside than me. OK maybe a bit. But I think a lot of people have that, also listeners and none musician. But what I think is these "good" players use their musical skills more intelligent to make that music we love. Its a blend where they know what the instrument can do, where they know their own strong and weak sides, where they put inside their feelings and musicality, but always in a intelligent way. Then I have to explain intelligent way. They balance all their skills, musically and technicality, with their knowledge of the instruments character it self, into a musical output that is "good" for all to listen. Puuhh sorry that long sentence. But there is some of the "mysteries" about how to make music? Or? I don't believe these people go around and think about it so much. Its a "sum" of many years work, experience and musicality that make it I believe.

Well, I just had to put some words on it to try understand a little. Understand what I need to work on.  Please share your thoughts? (Hope its possible to understand my writing?)

Leif
ttf_bds9992
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_bds9992 »

There's a Terence Blanchard record I'm currently listening to called Romantic Defiance - I'm also watching the NBA Western Conference Finals Game 2, but listening intently. On the record is a tenor player that I wasn't able to guess after some though.

For those of you who have the record, you know that the person playing tenor is not a tenor player familiarly - he is an alto player, by the name of Kenny Garrett.

It's hard for me to stop listening to him on tenor. Clearly Kenny Garrett is one of the baddest alto players today, but on tenor there's something that lessens the bite to his sound on alto because it is placed into a lower register. It's still soulful, it's just more mellow. His ability to bend certain pitches, combined with the way he articulates certain notes, leads his solo on Premise to be driving as all hell, but still contained.

What I notice the most about Kenny Garrett on tenor, however, is that it does not sound like someone else because he is on another instrument. It sounds like Kenny Garrett, playing a tenor saxophone. I feel the same way about Jackie McLean on tenor, or Bird on tenor, or Sonny Stitt on baritone, or John Coltrane on alto. With very few exceptions (and this is just my opinion), the instrument is simply an extension of the musical ideas and sound concept contained in one's mind. There are two things that separate a novice musician from a master musician in my opinion, and indeed these are not simple things. The first is experience. Even if you figure out what sound you are going for on any given night on any given tune or piece, you won't be able to truly piece it together without having ever played it for people. The second is a clarified concept of what you want to sound like. How clarified? The more clarified your concept, the more you will sound like it, and the better it will sound. What do I mean by clarified? Compare where you are to the level of the players you are currently trying to reach. The more you realize that comparison both mentally and in terms of realization in the real world, the farther you will progress towards that level.

If you decide to apply your concept to your horn once your concept is as together as you can make it at any given time, with experience, not only will that concept come to fruition (practice, life stuff, gigging, etc.), but your concept will broaden to include things in your playing you haven't thought of, thus changing your concept in some way and allowing for new possibilities and a higher quality. The next step is to reimagine one's concept again, and to go through the cycle indefinitely. The goal is not to get to a point where that concept does not ever change, but to get to the next time where you feel your concept is together, only to have it torn down by new information. I feel this applies to life as a whole.

The trombone is described as an instrument that may be less inviting towards the full ability for one to execute every musical thought going on in said musician's head. When I hear Kenny Garrett on tenor, though, I know that Kenny Garrett on tenor is just Kenny Garrett on alto, on tenor. Kenny Garrett is Kenny Garrett, and on any instrument he will always be Kenny Garrett. Steve Davis on trombone does indeed sound like Steve Davis on piano, or Steve Davis on bass, or Steve Davis on drums. The way he sees the whole instrument like a palette, no matter what it is, is the way he thinks. Trust me: I study with Steve Davis.

I saw the post about how one person feels about the alto trombone, the tenor trombone, and other instruments. My thoughts are that the instrument will function as a reflection of the person inside. The instrument will not play relaxed until the person is relaxed. The instrument will not play in tune until the person can hear themselves sing that note that they are trying to play in tune. You will not write your name cleanly until you know how to write your name cleanly and what that feels and looks like. You may know what it looks like, but you may not know how to write it out, or what the form should be. 75% of the form and 50% of the look may translate to 62.5% of the cleanly written name. If you're going for 100%, you need to average 100% and 100%. If you want a beautiful sound, mature ideas and a lot of language, you have to know what that sounds like, perfectly, and how to execute that on the horn. I'm still figuring it out, which is why you've never seen me at a New York jazz club. I know what I have to do, but I haven't done. More will be revealed to me, at which time I will BEGIN to realize what my concept should next allow to join it as a segment.

As a jazz musician I can look at two completely different trombonists, like Wycliffe Gordon and Steve Davis. They were raised in two entirely different environments, think in two entirely different ways and play more unlike each other than any other two trombonists I can think of. They are both extremely bad at what they do. The trombone is such a unique instrument that it deserves to be played in a plethora of different ways. Each player will play it differently. The whole concept I want to portray onto hear is that each instrument can play any way. Any instrument, I feel, can play any role in any ensemble. There are too many ensembles in the world of African-American classical music that put themselves into a hip box, but a box nonetheless. One can come up with an ensemble that has no historical precedent, that sets its own example and has its own hit records. John Coltrane created something different out of everything else that had ever been done. He borrowed from Eastern meditational concepts and he borrowed from Stravinsky and Slonimsky. All different types of trombonists are doing it. It's no secret. It's a matter of opening your mind to everything that will influence the gravity of one note.

And if one note is all it takes to display the influence of an entire human being, imagine what is possible with music, and with the trombone.
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

i got that album when it came out, spent a few days with it on repeat - didn't leave the house.  i still get chills when "morning after celebration" comes on... great album.

a lot of great voices on that disc.
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Giving this topic a bump since my mind has been cookin' a bit, of late.

I recently listened to an interview with author David Brooks about his new novel, The Social Animal. This one is on my personal reading list and I sent it to my dad for Father's Day.  In the interview, Brooks explains that he wrote the book as a fictional representation of many of the behavioral studies he's read over the past few years.

One of the points he made was related to patents. An analysis of patents and the previous patents upon which they were based revealed that the new and old patent holders lived and worked in close geographic proximity to one another. In many cases, the new and previous patent holders knew one another. Why is this important?  They SHARED their knowledge and experience with one another and a better understanding was built from doing so. They BRAINSTORMED and created a new way of thinking that incorporated different approaches.

I bring this up because I see THIS PLACE as a way to get closer and get to know one another in spite of our geographic separation. It's an imperfect solution, as Brooks also sites evidence that face-to-face communication is still a necessary and superior form of communicating, but we can benefit greatly from this place if we use it with wisdom, discipline, restraint and respect.

Contrary to the idealism of a group discussion or brainstorm, I frequently observe lectures and debate from fixed positions wherein arguments are created by resistance rather than understanding.

I'd like to challenge all reading here to SHARE their knowledge rather than wielding it as a weapon against those with whom you disagree.

More brainstorms and fewer lectures could benefit us all, IMHO. We play music because we enjoy it....or at least we did when we started. We come to this place because we enjoy discussing music and the trombone. Everyone should be able to leave this place feeling like they enjoyed their experience. This challenge might also entail that you enjoy your time here without minimizing another's enjoyment.  I believe the music we make will benefit and we will benefit.

DG
ttf_BGuttman
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

One thing about the patents.

Many times a patent will be taken out on a product that already exists in order to do two things:

1.  Make it better.
2.  Extend the patent coverage since the thing requires the new innovation.

Naturally, the people doing the development all know each other.  They probably all worked on the development even though only one of them may be actually listed.

I think a healthy discourse among us is useful for all.  We all need to learn to listen to each other and listen to each other to learn.

If you want an example of the opposite, look at some of the discussions in Purely Politics, which consist of two sides talking past each other.  Totally not productive.

ttf_brucolli
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_brucolli »

Quote from: D Gibson on Jul 03, 2011, 10:36AMGiving this topic a bump since my mind has been cookin' a bit, of late.

I recently listened to an interview with author David Brooks about his new novel, The Social Animal. This one is on my personal reading list and I sent it to my dad for Father's Day.  In the interview, Brooks explains that he wrote the book as a fictional representation of many of the behavioral studies he's read over the past few years.

One of the points he made was related to patents. An analysis of patents and the previous patents upon which they were based revealed that the new and old patent holders lived and worked in close geographic proximity to one another. In many cases, the new and previous patent holders knew one another. Why is this important?  They SHARED their knowledge and experience with one another and a better understanding was built from doing so. They BRAINSTORMED and created a new way of thinking that incorporated different approaches.

I bring this up because I see THIS PLACE as a way to get closer and get to know one another in spite of our geographic separation. It's an imperfect solution, as Brooks also sites evidence that face-to-face communication is still a necessary and superior form of communicating, but we can benefit greatly from this place if we use it with wisdom, discipline, restraint and respect.

Contrary to the idealism of a group discussion or brainstorm, I frequently observe lectures and debate from fixed positions wherein arguments are created by resistance rather than understanding.

I'd like to challenge all reading here to SHARE their knowledge rather than wielding it as a weapon against those with whom you disagree.

More brainstorms and fewer lectures could benefit us all, IMHO. We play music because we enjoy it....or at least we did when we started. We come to this place because we enjoy discussing music and the trombone. Everyone should be able to leave this place feeling like they enjoyed their experience. This challenge might also entail that you enjoy your time here without minimizing another's enjoyment.  I believe the music we make will benefit and we will benefit.

DG

David, I like you! This as balsam to my bleeding soul. I'm going to try to eventually read through this whole thread, but I'm having trouble keeping up with mine.
Thank you so much for starting it.

A fellow Rath man
Bruce

ttf_brucolli
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_brucolli »

Quote from: Piano man on May 20, 2010, 12:41PMA lot of the discussion on the forum has to do with conventional technique--developing slide and articulation technique that makes the trombone sound closer to the articulation of other instruments. Makes sense, because that's the application most of us are going to see.

Still, one of the reasons most players don't use quarter-tones is that they're too hard to play. They're a snap on trombone. How many guys use them? Trumpet and sax players sometimes use smooth glissandos to show off their technique--trombonists seem to avoid them because they're too easy.

So, here's my question:

Do the Monks and Ornettes of the world necessarily learn conventional technique first?
Is there room in the trombone world for someone who finds some new sounds from the horn without necessarily learning the traditional vocabulary and technique?

I've been asking my self these questions for years now. Mainly because I stopped playing jazz when I went to college. A trombone player who I respected told me I had to decide, either classical or jazz, you can't do both. I chose classical and quit jazz, a decision I now bitterly regret.

I do now play jazz now again, although seldomly, but I'll be the first to admit that I not a great improviser, I do it but I don't really feel I'm on top of the chords, so I play instinctively. Some would call it faking and it probably is but sometimes it works, not always. I have the technique and chops to play pretty much anything I want to but I'm lacking that traditional vocabulary and technique and I don't really have the time to learn it all and make up for all those missing years. So I ask myself exactly these questions, can I make up for a lack of traditional knowledge with my technique and/or creativeness? Or should I just leave it.

Oh, and by the way, I love quarter tones, and sixth tones, and eighth tones and....

Bruce
ttf_sabutin
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_sabutin »

Quote from: Piano man on May 20, 2010, 12:41PMA lot of the discussion on the forum has to do with conventional technique--developing slide and articulation technique that makes the trombone sound closer to the articulation of other instruments. Makes sense, because that's the application most of us are going to see.

Still, one of the reasons most players don't use quarter-tones is that they're too hard to play. They're a snap on trombone. How many guys use them? Trumpet and sax players sometimes use smooth glissandos to show off their technique--trombonists seem to avoid them because they're too easy.

---snip---
"Quarter tones," eh?

Now...if you are measuring in an academic sense, they are hard to play. In fact, only machines (and occasionally people who want to play like machines, I suppose) can actually play them accurately.

But as blue notes? As bends and idiomatic content the world over? As they appear in the untempered harmonic series? They are as common as an A 440. Quarter tones, eighth tones, even some semi-mythical note like a 264th tone? No matter. Sinatra sang them; Pops played and sang them and every musician with any blues roots who doesn't play a fixed pitch instrument has used them since childhood sing-alongs. Ditto most good Western European-style non-academic soloists and singers and ditto twice the players of almost every other non-Western musical idiom. You know...people who pl;ay for people? People who play for their supper instead of writing grants? Hell, when Thelonious Monk couldn't play them on piano, he played the notes on both sides of them simultaneously. Loudly and relatively undisguised by other, more neutral notes. It worked, too.

And here we are, back to the academic/non-academic argument that I have been trying to make on this site and elsewhere for years. In academe, the "scholars" dissect music just like biologists dissect animals. But neither of those groups can actually put an animal to life. They can only examine what is no longer alive. They can create theoretical simulacrums; they can do robots; but they can't put a swinging life form on the planet anew. The Schrödinger's Cat principle in real life. In order to examine something you first have to stop it from happening. Once you do that you can no longer observe it in flux.

Forget about "quarter tones!!!" Just play what you really hear inside of a naturally occurring idiom and you'll be playing them without thought.

Just music.

Like it's s'pose to be.

Bet on it.

Later...

S.

ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: brucolli on Dec 08, 2011, 03:03PM....I have the technique and chops to play pretty much anything I want to but I'm lacking that traditional vocabulary and technique and I don't really have the time to learn it all and make up for all those missing years. So I ask myself exactly these questions, can I make up for a lack of traditional knowledge with my technique and/or creativeness? Or should I just leave it.

Oh, and by the way, I love quarter tones, and sixth tones, and eighth tones and....

Bruce

words are strung together to convey thoughts.  you have a small vocabulary?  it just means you'll have to be VERY particular about choosing your words.  it's the THOUGHT that counts. 

my students frequently get caught up in imitating vocabulary that they don't even understand because they pursue the appearance of eloquence.  but, there is rarely a thought that unifies the words.  therefore, it always comes off as gibberish. i think of it as being similar to all of the misspelled facebook status updates...or posts on this forum.  the details are missing...mostly the detail of meaning to the words. 

but, i always encourage my students to use the vocabulary they HAVE and use it to communicate a THOUGHT.  even a 2 year-old can say, "I love you."  not too many words, but a BIG idea. 

no need to "learn it all"....know what you want to say and find the words to say it.  everyone doesn't have to love it, but it may just enrich your life in unexpected ways. 

good luck.

DG
ttf_sabutin
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_sabutin »

More on so-called "quarter tones":

You want to witness a truly masterful use of idiomatic quarter tones and other non-tempered notes?

Tune into the "A Skaggs Family Christmas" show. It's available on RFDTV and probably elsewhere on cable as well. Yeah. I know. Don't turn your nose up at this suggestion if you are in any way curious about what I have been saying. Ricky Skaggs and the people with whom he has surrounded himself for several decades are so deep into the bluegrass/country tradition that their sheer musicality is awe inspiring. Especially Ricky Skaggs, who could no more sing a bad or awkward note than could Sinatra in his prime, Ray Charles or Jessye Norman.

"Corny?"

Only if you are deaf to the eternal progression of the overtone series.

"New music?"

Every time they lay hands on it.

Bet on it.

Wake the frack up.

It's everywhere...except where many of you are searching.

S.
ttf_ntap
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_ntap »

I go back to this often:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtgUbJN8oPE

Lester Young's solo, he's the second tenor player to play for those who don't know. 

What beautiful, intricate, perfect, heartfelt, and masterful music! What deep understanding he has, what sensitivity! Lester Young's use of the notes to say exactly, exactly what he needs to say is it, in my opinion.  Dave touched on the point about his students knowing vocabulary but not knowing its meaning...This! The opposite.  He is playing only a few notes, takes only a chorus, but if I could ever, ever even have just a shred of that beauty and understanding in my playing I die fulfilled. 

Not to mention everyone else's playing. 

(Just a side note.)
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

@Sabutin:

Ricky Scaggs is amazing. I was flipping through channels years ago and stumbled across his band playing. I was familiar with his name but in my mind lumped him together with other radio country acts, which I generally don't listen to. His band made my jaw drop. Every time you thought you heard the best country solo in history, the next guy would play something better.
ttf_Piano man
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

a discussion of music and the trombone

Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: sabutin on Dec 08, 2011, 04:09PM"Quarter tones," eh?

Now...if you are measuring in an academic sense, they are hard to play. In fact, only machines (and occasionally people who want to play like machines, I suppose) can actually play them accurately.
This reminds me of a joke. A couple of fly fishermen walk down a little draw into a creek bed and surprise a grizzly sow with cubs. When the bear spots them one of the guys starts peeling off his rubber boots.

The other guy says, "You can't outrun that bear, even in your sneakers."

He answers, "I don't have to outrun the bear. I have to outrun you."

You're obviously a great musician with a great ear for pitch. Granted, you couldn't probably play quarter tones with the same subtlety and refinement with which you approach normal chromaticism (because chromaticism is more ingrained). But if it sounds good to you, it's probably going to sound good to your audience.

In other words, you don't have to outrun the bear, only the listeners.

I wasn't thinking of quarter tones as adjustments to notes. I was thinking about playing licks that incorporate quarter tones (you could call it the 'double chromatic scale') like Don Ellis used to do on trumpet. Where the quarter tones are discrete notes, maybe passing notes between half-steps, rather than expressive versions of scale tones.

Post Reply

Return to “Musical Miscellany”