Using GoFund me to finance a new horn

ttf_bonesmarsh
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Post by ttf_bonesmarsh » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:45 pm

Gulags? Certainly. Gulags are only in the mind.

And, the best part of being in a Gulag is that the internet reception is poor, and that limits the exposure to TTF, leaving lots of time to actually practice! More practice = more gigs.
 Like any hobby, you have to pay to play.
And for the record siriobhakya, unless your band is funded by a military, most bands have players who pay to play, supply their own instruments, and are happy to do so.
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Post by ttf_davdud101 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:46 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 30, 2018, 05:36PMI imagine the OP is extremely appreciative of all the free publicity! I know I sure would be!  Image

...Geezer

 Image Image any publicity is good publicity I suppose! The more eyes he gets on that page, the better for him, eh? Lol
I am a bit in agreement with what those couple of posters above - seems a bit of a stretch to say a 26yo can't get out there and do some work to earn that new horn. Heck, I feel it's way more gratifying, too.

Either way, I DO hope he ends up with the horn he wants. The boulder's not picking up any moss now so it's likely he'll be able to finance his dream-horn in good time, improve his musicianship to where he wants and even have a funny little story to boot Image
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Post by ttf_JohnL » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:26 pm

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 30, 2018, 04:46PMNo paying gigs, for me, is not a sound argument. Many, if not most, if not all, community bands here in Japan play for free. The musicians sometimes even have to pay membership fee; the band I am in calls for $25 a month. But the majority of the musicians buy their own instruments by themselves (some do borrow/rent, and some do use the ones their parents bought them long ago). And both new and used instruments are expensive here.Not an entirely fair comparison. The people who play in bands of that sort (I play in a few, myself) are, for the most part, adults who make their living doing something other than performing music. This guy is a student (an older student, admittedly - though that's kinda the norm for that part of the world, what with them going on a mission and all), majoring in performance and working toward grad school.
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Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:41 pm

I think in relatively closed societies, like the Mormons almost are, it may be relatively common for members to help each other out like that.  There's a good chance it all seems pretty normal within that group to ask for and receive financial help.

I don't think that situation can fairly be compared to the general population.
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Post by ttf_Radar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:26 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 30, 2018, 10:01AMPeople have gotten more for less...

https://www.gofundme.com/pay-off-dumb-speeding-ticket
I guess it just goes to show there really is a sucker born every minute!! 
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Post by ttf_Stan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:23 pm

This gentleman really rubs me the wrong way for 2 specific reasons:

1.  He's asking for a Shires Chicago trombone.  Do you know who the 42T was good enough for?  Jay Friedman.  And Michael Mulcahy.  And 100 other top-tier professional players.  And countless dedicated amateurs.  This kid's attitude is holding him back.  Not his trombone.  I have never heard Jay say that the 42T held him back.

2.  I would never, ever, ever take a new horn into a recording situation, especially if we had paid to book the time. 

QuoteI need funds for this purchase as soon as possible, preferrably (sic) within the next two weeks, as my brass quintet is set to record soon and I would like to sound the best that I can as soon as I can.
For someone who claims to have that much experience and exposure, he sure doesn't act like it.
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Post by ttf_Burgerbob » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:34 pm

Quote from: Stan on Jan 31, 2018, 12:23PMThis gentleman really rubs me the wrong way for 2 specific reasons:

1.  He's asking for a Shires Chicago trombone.  Do you know who the 42T was good enough for?  Jay Friedman.  And Michael Mulcahy.  And 100 other top-tier professional players.  And countless dedicated amateurs.  This kid's attitude is holding him back.  Not his trombone.  I have never heard Jay say that the 42T held him back.


Let's not be disingenuous and say that all Bach 42Ts were created the same. That's definitely not the case. His might be a terrible one, which might be the case if he needs a new horn.
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Post by ttf_Matt K » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:44 pm

Quote from: Stan on Jan 31, 2018, 12:23PMThis gentleman really rubs me the wrong way for 2 specific reasons:

1.  He's asking for a Shires Chicago trombone.  Do you know who the 42T was good enough for?  Jay Friedman.  And Michael Mulcahy.  And 100 other top-tier professional players.  And countless dedicated amateurs.  This kid's attitude is holding him back.  Not his trombone.  I have never heard Jay say that the 42T held him back.

2.  I would never, ever, ever take a new horn into a recording situation, especially if we had paid to book the time. 

For someone who claims to have that much experience and exposure, he sure doesn't act like it.

Jay Friedman literally cobbled together a horn with parts from not just a different model, but a bass trombone to avoid playing a stock 42 and won the job at a time when the stock horns produced are among the most rare and valuable horns you can purchase today...
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Post by ttf_bubbachet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:20 pm

I can't think of a more sheltered existence than being an LDS music performance graduate student in Idaho.  Image

I doubt there's any malice in this guy's request, but I do think he's ignorant of how dumb this makes him look. People forget the internet is forever...
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:27 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Jan 31, 2018, 12:44PMJay Friedman literally cobbled together a horn with parts from not just a different model, but a bass trombone to avoid playing a stock 42 and won the job at a time when the stock horns produced are among the most rare and valuable horns you can purchase today...

Would JF have won the job on nearly any horn?
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Post by ttf_Matt K » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:28 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Jan 31, 2018, 01:27PMWould JF have won the job on nearly any horn?

Apparently he preferred not to find out.
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:00 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 31, 2018, 12:34PMLet's not be disingenuous and say that all Bach 42Ts were created the same. That's definitely not the case. His might be a terrible one, which might be the case if he needs a new horn.

Then a Getzen or even a Yamaha should do fine, or even sending his current one to a tech (but with upcoming gig and his location I’ll give him the benefit of doubt on this one), not a new boutique horn he cannot afford it himself.
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Post by ttf_JohnL » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:40 pm

Quote from: bubbachet on Jan 31, 2018, 01:20PMI can't think of a more sheltered existence than being an LDS music performance graduate student in Idaho.Undergrad.
QuoteOn top of that, I graduate later this year and will be auditioning for masters programs.
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Post by ttf_Burgerbob » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:47 pm

Quote from: bubbachet on Jan 31, 2018, 01:20PMI can't think of a more sheltered existence than being an LDS music performance graduate student in Idaho.  Image

I doubt there's any malice in this guy's request, but I do think he's ignorant of how dumb this makes him look. People forget the internet is forever...

I do agree with all of this.
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:51 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 31, 2018, 02:47PMI do agree with all of this.

I don’t.

Guy asks for money.  People can give or not.

Meanwhile, older adults belittle guy behind his back (with the exception of Greg who at least contacted him directly) and act as though they must inherently be superior.  All without knowing him or if there is more to the story.  Like what his current financial situation is.  Nope.  He’s just a dumb kid. 
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Post by ttf_Burgerbob » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:59 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 31, 2018, 05:51PMI don’t.





I was mainly referring to the first statement. But the second is still true. I don't really judge him for posting the GoFundMe, but obviously many others do.
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:46 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 31, 2018, 05:51PMMeanwhile, older adults belittle guy behind his back (with the exception of Greg who at least contacted him directly) and act as though they must inherently be superior.  All without knowing him or if there is more to the story.  Like what his current financial situation is.  Nope.  He’s just a dumb kid. 

I said that from a point of view at least somewhat similar to the GFM guy. I am 28. I bought my horn, my first, with my own money at 26, the same age as he is now. I can say I worked for every JPY I used to buy the horn by myself. And then this man just beg for a horn that (I believe) is even more expensive than mine.

No matter he will get enough money or not, he will certainly get at least some money, and I have seen people get away with even larger amount of money with means like this. And that makes me ask myself: why do I have to work 8-5 plus OT for two months just for enough money to get a horn (assuming no other use such as food, accommodation, etc...) when I can just do something like that.

For me, his current financial situation is not relevant. When you are in financial trouble, you don't buy luxurious item, especially when you already have one. Simple as that.

Except he says his wife prevent him from buying the horn, or would kill him if he buy one. That is a real tragic situation. Image
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:48 pm

Sorry. Wrong button pressed.
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Post by ttf_Matt K » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:52 am

Quotewhy do I have to work 8-5 plus OT for two months just for enough money to get a horn (assuming no other use such as food, accommodation, etc...) when I can just do something like that.
 Image I don't know, maybe because you didn't ask?  Does it make sense to post it to a group of trombonists? Probably not so much.  But as I mentioned earlier, if you're LDS this is the type of thing you help out with when you're more accomplished and I'm sure he'll contribute likewise someday just as there are obviously people now who feel like contributing presently.  You can see he has a number of smaller donations and I would be very surprised if  an excise portion of them were from his local community.
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:16 am

 I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide. That would be pretty interesting to know. Most musicians I know lean pretty liberal, so I really don't get what the upset here is.

I lean right, and I'm glad that people can freely ask for money, not necessarily by approaching people in person but in a written forum, using their right to free speech, and that others are free to give or not give. I vote in a way that I think is against forced giving. For a demographic  (musicians) that in my experience leans left and often votes for what I see as forced giving, it's surprising that this thread is such a big deal.

I realize that this is a super simplified comparison, and it only represents my personal viewpoint, but I am trying to use it to ask again, "what is the big deal?"
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Post by ttf_watermailonman » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:31 am

"What's the big deal?"

To beg for money and expect to do nothing in return is not socialy accepted. We are expected to contribute if we want something. You work to get money. Favours and favours in return.

Insurances are a bit different. You pay money that you hopfully will not need and you are happy will help others in need, but it is only as long as you belive you will be covered if the accident occurres. You are fine as long as the insurance system works. If not all pay their fees to the insurance-system it would collapse. The same if all are fed by GoFoundMe donations. Some people need to do the work for those not working to feed them.

Somebody who do not contribute to a group and just asking to be fed is looked upon with suspicion. Why should we help?

We try to justify the claim for money to understand the behavior by suggesting he might want to contribute/pay back later. We do this because we instinctively have learned to behave within what's accepted social behavior. We can not think someone for real thinks he will get away by parasiting on the group without being grateful as to give something in return. Nobody with self respect wants to do this. This is because everybody wants to belong to and needs to be accepted by a group. Success for the individual comes basicly from belonging to a successful group.
I don't think the raise of the Internet has changed this. Maybe the best option is a spoiled anoymous brat who takes a chance, and the worst opion is it's a scam close to a Nigeria letter. You decide.

We try to look at the bigger picture. Is he wealthy or poor? Is he scamming people? Is he likely to appreciate the money? Why him and not another starving kid? We try to understand the behavior. Is this some spoiled brat or is it a musical poor genius who is held back by a Bach 42? Is this someone from my group?

Founding money like this is strange. Can't see WHY I should support. If it was a very poor but very talented person in my neighbourhood it could be different. Then it would be someone I knew, someone from my group. In this case I pass.

Social projects financed by taxes like we have here in Sweden is different. The public service is for all but financed only by those who work. This is fine with me because we have to help those without a job and education so they can get to work and contribute. Everybody is a winner if education is high and unimployment low. This kind of help is needed to build a secure healthy society. To finance someone's trombone is not doing much good for society.

/Tom
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Post by ttf_Matt K » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:47 am

Is there a difference between this and subsidizing an orchestra in a city where it is not financially self-supporting? 
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:11 am

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 01, 2018, 05:47AMIs there a difference between this and subsidizing an orchestra in a city where it is not financially self-supporting? 

If you are uninterested in the arts, no. Unless of course the city uses your taxes to do so and you voted against it. Then you had a voice but not a real choice, short of moving. In the case of this campaign, you have a voice AND a choice.

I wasn't trying to stir the pot much, and I'm certainly not endorsing anybody's gofundme campaign, but it's just curious. People here are upset because it's possible to get something for nothing. But it's also possible to get nothing for a lot of effort. And it's also possible to get only a little for a lot of effort. You can even trade up a paperclip until it becomes a house. That's life (and capitalism), and life is not fair.

The other option is "it's not just possible but probable to get a set something for whatever, including nothing" or, as it seems some here would like to see, "it's possible that you shouldn't be allowed to say what you're saying and ask for funding".
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Post by ttf_Matt K » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:31 am

It seems like even if you are interested in the arts it's the same. Artists sure aren't funding the symphony, by-and-large. But I'd be shocked if as many people here had a problem with orchestras 'begging' for money. And orchestras can definitely have some luxurious components to them... look at the salary of some of these big time conductors. Do they deserve that more than this guy deserves a Shires? 
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Post by ttf_watermailonman » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:54 am

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 01, 2018, 06:31AM... look at the salary of some of these big time conductors. Do they deserve that more than this guy deserves a Shires? 

If the music they are conducting can be enjoyed by the people who pay their salary I would say "yes". If not I would say "no".

/Tom
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Post by ttf_ntap » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:19 am

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Post by ttf_slide advantage » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:06 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 05:16AM I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide. That would be pretty interesting to know. Most musicians I know lean pretty liberal, so I really don't get what the upset here is.

I am decidedly left leaning. I don't see the contradiction in my being bothered by what this guy is doing while supporting social programs.

This guy is in college, so I think it is safe to assume that he has resources. And he isn't stupid. He could use some initiative and figure a way to get the horn. If he is persistent and stays optimistic, he can do it without asking for handouts.

IMHO, he needs to roll up his sleeves and work to buy his horn.

I have read and heard comments from some younger players saying that 'times have changed and the older generation doesn't understand how hard things are now'

I don't buy that. Circumstances do change. I realize that. But you do what you have to do. And in this case, begging is apparently all he thinks he has to do.

I met a mid-20's trombone player recently who has a real problem with this approach to funding a horn. He told me that he worked hard to buy his pro-level horn and he resented anyone taking the easy way out.
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:15 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 05:16AM I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide. That would be pretty interesting to know. Most musicians I know lean pretty liberal, so I really don't get what the upset here is.

I lean right, and I'm glad that people can freely ask for money, not necessarily by approaching people in person but in a written forum, using their right to free speech, and that others are free to give or not give. I vote in a way that I think is against forced giving. For a demographic  (musicians) that in my experience leans left and often votes for what I see as forced giving, it's surprising that this thread is such a big deal.

I realize that this is a super simplified comparison, and it only represents my personal viewpoint, but I am trying to use it to ask again, "what is the big deal?"

It's not a big deal, but it is evidently of sufficient interest to generate discussion. 77 posts so far.

 . . .

"I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide."

Why even go there? Do you look at everything in terms of liberal vs. right thinking people? Eg. "I don't eat Shredded Wheat because liberals eat Shredded Wheat."

I would think a right thinking person would disapprove of someone asking for a handout as opposed to going out and working to pay for what he wants.


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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:25 am

Here are the links to the Urbie Green and Julian Priester pages:

https://www.gofundme.com/UrbieGreen

https://www.youcaring.com/julianpriester-899305

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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:52 am

Quote from: Greg Waits on Feb 01, 2018, 08:06AM

This guy is in college, so I think it is safe to assume that he has resources.

IMHO, he needs to roll up his sleeves and work to buy his horn.

And in this case, begging is apparently all he thinks he has to do.



Where to start...

People keep saying he's begging.  Is he really begging?  By strict definition, I suppose so.  Personally, I distinguish between asking and begging.  To me, it seems like he's asking.

He's in college so he has resources?  I'm not even sure what that means.  Access to more loans, perhaps?

I attended the University of South Carolina from 2003-2005.  Got a pretty decent scholarship.  Worked full time in the spring and summer, as much as I could in the fall since marching band was a requirement and met three evenings a week plus Saturday.  I am STILL paying off loans for those two years.  If there were an opportunity to buy something without having to take out a loan or work even more hours, I probably would have given it a shot.

The problem I have with reading through this thread really isn't even about whether or not he should be using GoFundMe to finance an instrument.  The problem I have is with the fact that not a single person commenting (including myself) knows him.  Or what his financial situation is.  Or his health situation.  Or anything else really.  Make he IS a jerk and spoiled.  Or maybe he's not.
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Post by ttf_greenbean » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:22 am

This reminds me of a great tune on the Kind of Blue album. Image  I can't come up with the name right now...


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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:41 am

Quote from: greenbean on Feb 01, 2018, 09:22AMThis reminds me of a great tune on the Kind of Blue album. Image  I can't come up with the name right now...



Could be either:

So What
Freddie Freeloader
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:42 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Feb 01, 2018, 09:41AMCould be either:

So What
Freddie Freeloader

Is this a poll?

I'm going FF.
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:52 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Feb 01, 2018, 08:15AMIt's not a big deal, but it is evidently of sufficient interest to generate discussion. 77 posts so far.

 . . .

"I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide."

Why even go there? Do you look at everything in terms of liberal vs. right thinking people? Eg. "I don't eat Shredded Wheat because liberals eat Shredded Wheat."

I would think a right thinking person would disapprove of someone asking for a handout as opposed to going out and working to pay for what he wants.



That's what I find interesting. As I right leaning person, I fully support the right of anyone to say or ask whatever they want. And I fully support the right of everyone to laugh at him and not contribute to his campaign. That should be the end of it.

Your "I would think..." beautifully illustrates my interest. The people who in the other thread about GoFundMe campaigns were saying that we should force everyone in society to foot the bill for those individuals and that our current society is terrible, are the same sort of people in this thread who want to shut this other guy up.

I'm not forming any conclusions or passing any judgements. It's just a surprising viewpoint. I suppose the desire to control others' actions is the common thread.
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Post by ttf_mwpfoot » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:11 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 11:52AMYour "I would think..." beautifully illustrates my interest. The people who in the other thread about GoFundMe campaigns were saying that we should force everyone in society to foot the bill for those individuals and that our current society is terrible, are the same sort of people in this thread who want to shut this other guy up.
I am a liberal and my opinion on GoFundMe requests is neither here nor there. So there. Image

re: "the same sort of people," maybe just take individuals at face value on these sorts of topics instead of extrapolating out until you are talking about something else, to someone else, ...

 Image
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Post by ttf_davdud101 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:17 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 31, 2018, 05:51PMMeanwhile, older adults belittle guy behind his back (with the exception of Greg who at least contacted him directly) and act as though they must inherently be superior.  All without knowing him or if there is more to the story.  Like what his current financial situation is.  Nope.  He’s just a dumb kid. 

Hey, hey, hey! Not all of use are older adults... some of us are also dumb kids  Image Image
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Post by ttf_Blowero » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:40 pm

Quote from: Stan on Jan 31, 2018, 12:23PM
2.  I would never, ever, ever take a new horn into a recording situation, especially if we had paid to book the time. 

Ha, ha. I was going to mention this but forgot. I guess he doesn't realize that the intonation on Bachs and Shires are like night and day. I don't know why his teacher isn't talking him down off the ledge.
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Post by ttf_Blowero » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:49 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Feb 01, 2018, 08:52AM
People keep saying he's begging.  Is he really begging?  By strict definition, I suppose so.  Personally, I distinguish between asking and begging.  To me, it seems like he's asking.

Beg has 2 definitions. I think people here are referring to the second definition:

2. ask for something, typically food or money, as charity or a gift.

You don't have to be down on your knees saying, "Oh please, oh please!" to be begging. It just means you are asking for something to be given to you as charity.
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:50 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Feb 01, 2018, 12:49PMBeg has 2 definitions. I think people here are referring to the second definition:

2. ask for something, typically food or money, as charity or a gift.

You don't have to be down on your knees saying, "Oh please, oh please!" to be begging. It just means you are asking for something to be given to you as charity.

Indeed.  Which is why I said, by strict definition, yes. 
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Post by ttf_Radar » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 05:16AM I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide. That would be pretty interesting to know. Most musicians I know lean pretty liberal, so I really don't get what the upset here is.

I lean right, and I'm glad that people can freely ask for money, not necessarily by approaching people in person but in a written forum, using their right to free speech, and that others are free to give or not give. I vote in a way that I think is against forced giving. For a demographic  (musicians) that in my experience leans left and often votes for what I see as forced giving, it's surprising that this thread is such a big deal.

I realize that this is a super simplified comparison, and it only represents my personal viewpoint, but I am trying to use it to ask again, "what is the big deal?"
As a Liberal myself I understand his right to ask for whatever he wants, if someone wants to donate to him I have no problem with them doing so.  Myself as a retiree I have limited funds to give to charity, so I'm particular about what causes I give to.  For myself I choose not to give to someone who is asking for what I consider a Luxury item.  There are many very good used professional level horns that he could be looking at, or he could ask for the funds to have his current horn over-hauled, and those options would serve him just as well.  If he were trying to come up with say a used 88H, 42B, Holton etc. I would be more inclined to donate a small amount.  How many of us are gigging or have gigged on horns that are considered inferior to what he is trying to raise funds for?  If you were doing a go fund me page because you needed a reliable car to get you back and forth to work would you post your need on social media stating that you wanted to raise funds for a new BMW or Maserati, or would you ask for funds to buy a reliable used vehicle? 

As a Liberal I give as much as I can to help others, but I try to put my limited funds where they will do the most good.  I don't have a problem with him asking for funds, I just have a problem with him thinking that he needs to have a high end Shires Horn to reach his highest potential as a player.  Many professionals have done phenomenally well with instruments that weren't new or that high end.  Save the expensive boutique horns for when you can afford it and get something more affordable but workable.  Just my opinion, but he is asking for my money so in that regard my opinion counts. 
ttf_bubbachet
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Post by ttf_bubbachet » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:10 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 11:52AMThat's what I find interesting. As I right leaning person, I fully support the right of anyone to say or ask whatever they want. And I fully support the right of everyone to laugh at him and not contribute to his campaign. That should be the end of it.

Your "I would think..." beautifully illustrates my interest. The people who in the other thread about GoFundMe campaigns were saying that we should force everyone in society to foot the bill for those individuals and that our current society is terrible, are the same sort of people in this thread who want to shut this other guy up.

I'm not forming any conclusions or passing any judgements. It's just a surprising viewpoint. I suppose the desire to control others' actions is the common thread.

I don't think anyone could successfully argue that funding social services/infrastructure through tax dollars is the same as funding the purchase of someone's luxury item through charitable giving, especially when the person already has one luxury item and simply wants a more expensive one.

You're equating the two in bad faith.
ttf_Ellrod
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:13 pm

On the topic of crowd funding:

On January 26, Janusz Majer, a coordinator for the Polish winter expedition, announced on Facebook that Revol and Mackiewicz had become stuck at an altitude of 7,400 meters under the top dome. Due to the sun’s UV rays–and suffered frostbite.

Revol continued down and signaled for help from a satellite phone.

Commercial company Askari Aviation, owned by the Pakistan Army, refused to send a helicopter until a certain amount of funds were deposited, which is reportedly standard practice. In response, two crowdfunding efforts were organized and quickly raised tens of thousands of euros to help. The government of Poland also reportedly assured funds.

With the funds guaranteed, a group of four Polish climbers, who interrupted their climb of the second highest mountain in the world, K2, to help the effort, were flown by helicopter to Nanga Parbat to search for Revol and Mackiewicz. On January 28, Revol was rescued and flown to Islamabad for medical aid. She is reportedly suffering from severe frostbite on her hands and feet. Extreme weather conditions forced the rescue team to abandon their ascent to search for Mackiewicz.

ttf_Blowero
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Post by ttf_Blowero » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:12 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Feb 01, 2018, 12:50PMIndeed.  Which is why I said, by strict definition, yes. 
But you implied that the use of that word here is somehow incorrect and I am saying it is not. It's not a matter of being "strict" or not; the way the word is being used here,  it doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:15 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Feb 01, 2018, 05:12PMBut you implied that the use of that word here is somehow incorrect and I am saying it is not. It's not a matter of being "strict" or not; the way the word is being used here,  it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Except for the fact that you’re completely ignoring the social connotations that are part of our language.  And also making assumptions about what I meant.  That’s what you do...I ought to be used to it by now.  But whatever.  I don’t like you so don’t really care what you think.
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:16 pm

I don't think a new fancy boutique trombone is a life-or-death situation. Except in the case that he only lives on the income using trombone and the current one is unusable somehow, rendering him and his family starving.

Yes, one has the right to ask/beg for what he/she wants, and the others have the right to laugh or belittle him. But in real life there will be people who just want to give, some out of real good will, some just for fun, and some just to show power, and the begging person always get money in the end without any effort. (I don't count posting on a website as "effort"; the person who did clip->house campaign had at least a paperclip to trade, and he even go to the trading place himself.) How am I going to teach my kid(s) about hard work and self pride when you can just ask people on the internet and get free money out of them?
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Post by ttf_Stan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:22 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Feb 01, 2018, 12:40PMHa, ha. I was going to mention this but forgot. I guess he doesn't realize that the intonation on Bachs and Shires are like night and day. I don't know why his teacher isn't talking him down off the ledge.

See, that’s what really bugs me.  That, and the comment about, “It’s only a Bach!”  which, granted, may be hearsay.  That right there tells me that this guy doesn’t know as much as he thinks he knows.  And if that’s my operating principle, I see the request as kind of outrageous and kind of smug.  I’m a rainbow—loving liberal, AND I think people should be free to ask for money.  But, I also think this guy is being kind of smug about it, and it’s the smug that bothers me.  Asking for help vs. expecting help. 

<edited for a spelling error>
ttf_MrPillow
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Post by ttf_MrPillow » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:23 pm

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Feb 01, 2018, 05:16PMHow am I going to teach my kid(s) about hard work and self pride when you can just ask people on the internet and get free money out of them?

You cannot. Society is doomed. Quit now.
ttf_Euphanasia
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Post by ttf_Euphanasia » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:43 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 01, 2018, 05:16AM I'm curious about how many of the musicians here who are upset about this GoFundMe also vote as liberals who support social programs, not just in the States, but worldwide. That would be pretty interesting to know. Most musicians I know lean pretty liberal, so I really don't get what the upset here is.

I lean right, and I'm glad that people can freely ask for money, not necessarily by approaching people in person but in a written forum, using their right to free speech, and that others are free to give or not give. I vote in a way that I think is against forced giving. For a demographic  (musicians) that in my experience leans left and often votes for what I see as forced giving, it's surprising that this thread is such a big deal.

I realize that this is a super simplified comparison, and it only represents my personal viewpoint, but I am trying to use it to ask again, "what is the big deal?"

For me, the "big deal" has to do with privilege. Asking for money to buy a different professional-grade trombone from the two professional-grade trombones you already own is boorish. It would be like, let's say, having a President who gave huge tax breaks to people at the very top of the economic scale and then said things like "You're all going to get a whole lot richer." Charity to the privileged is very different from social programs which benefit those who are underprivileged. But hey--I wouldn't want to make this a political discussion or anything.

I'm starting a GoFundMe today because my 2015 Chevrolet Volt only gets 32 miles on a fully-charged battery, forcing me to burn gasoline a few times a month. I NEED a 2016, which gets over 40 miles on a full battery charge. Won't you please help?
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:14 pm

Quote from: MrPillow on Feb 01, 2018, 05:23PMYou cannot. Society is doomed. Quit now.

Killed myself. Typing this from afterlife.


Quote from: Euphanasia on Feb 01, 2018, 05:43PMI'm starting a GoFundMe today because my 2015 Chevrolet Volt only gets 32 miles on a fully-charged battery, forcing me to burn gasoline a few times a month. I NEED a 2016, which gets over 40 miles on a full battery charge. Won't you please help?

Why not Tesla Model X?  Image
ttf_Ellrod
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:23 pm

Well, that Bach 42 is a piece of shite and the valves are trash. All Bach 42s are. People are laughing at you.

I’m happy to take it off your hands and save you further humiliation.

That offer is open to the rest of you as well. I’m happy to take your crap Bach 42s. Sorry, can’t help with the shipping, but aren’t I doing enough?
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