Wagner-Flying Dutchman Overture on alto trombone??

ttf_Robbymeese · Post by **ttf_Robbymeese** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:34 pm

I'm about to play a concert of Wagner's Flying Dutchman Overture and Brahms 1. I looked at the Flying Dutchman part on IMSLP just now and saw that in all pages but the first page the first trombone was marked "Alto Trombone" (even though it is written in tenor clef, not alto clef.) I was already planning on playing alto on the Brahms...should I also play alto on the Wagner?? The first and second trombone parts for the overture have a lot of unison, so one might make the argument that Wagner desired an alto on first to brighten up the sound slightly, with the tenor providing the breadth of the sound in the unison parts?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:37 pm

"Alto Trombone" simply means "high trombone". Nither Brahms nor Wagner would have expected an alto trombone to be playing the part. You can easily play Brahms 1 on a tenor and the Flying Dutchman as well.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:37 pm

Alto for the Brahms. Tenor for the Wagner. Many reasons...

Chris Stearn.

ttf_Robbymeese · Post by **ttf_Robbymeese** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:59 pm

Yes, I was still planning on doing Brahms on alto and Wagner on tenor. I was just surprised because I hadn't seen a part specifically marked "alto" written in tenor clef, and thinking of playing the Wagner on alto was quite funny! About the Brahms, though, he did express in writing that the trombone section sound he most enjoyed was alto-tenor-bass. I had thought that this reason (along with the fact that the first part is marked "alto") is why it is so in vogue to perform Brahms 1 with an A-T-B section?

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:11 pm

Wagner certainly not written for alto. Brahms, likely to be the sound he had in mind if not the actual set up he got. That bass part is also written for a "true" bass in F.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:21 pm

Brahms probably did want a true alto.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:35 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Sep 20, 2017, 07:21PMBrahms probably did want a true alto.

But I'd be willing to bet that in a lot of cases that's not what he got. Maybe a small bore tenor most times.

For Robby: If you can play alto convincingly then you are free to use it. But if you are a relative beginner on alto and really don't have it solid play the Brahms on a tenor. It's more important that the notes be in tune and on time than which instrument produced them.

ttf_Zandit75 · Post by **ttf_Zandit75** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:06 pm

I've never played in a professional setting, so please take this comment with a grain of salt, but I would have thought the best person to ask this question of would be your conductor/musical director? What are they looking to achieve with the performance?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:28 pm

I suspect many conductors have never encountered an alto trombone.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:51 pm

Quote from: Zandit75 on Sep 20, 2017, 11:06PMI've never played in a professional setting, so please take this comment with a grain of salt, but I would have thought the best person to ask this question of would be your conductor/musical director? What are they looking to achieve with the performance?

With my more than 40 years of professional experience I would say a conductor is the last person you want to ask about instrumental requirements. Leave them to deal with traffic control and speaking to dead composers.
Chris Stearn

ttf_Zandit75 · Post by **ttf_Zandit75** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:22 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 20, 2017, 11:51PMWith my more than 40 years of professional experience I would say a conductor is the last person you want to ask about instrumental requirements. Leave them to deal with traffic control and speaking to dead composers.
Chris Stearn

Hmmm, not the answer I was expecting!!
My experience is with Brass Bands, and every conductor I have worked with has made these decisions. Admittedly, we are only talking about a 30+ member band, not a full orchestra etc.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:33 am

Quote from: Zandit75 on Sep 21, 2017, 01:22AMHmmm, not the answer I was expecting!!
My experience is with Brass Bands, and every conductor I have worked with has made these decisions. Admittedly, we are only talking about a 30+ member band, not a full orchestra etc.

Brass bands tend to be conducted by brass or ex-brass players. They are very hands-on and often have opinions on equipment. Orchestra conductors are very rarely ex-brass players and are very unlikely to have any specialist knowledge whatsoever. That rarely stops them from offering an opinion when asked. The most often requested change is for 'small bore' trombones.... a pretty meaningless term when applied to historical orchestral requirements but one that still leaves the players with a degree of choice and flexibility. Often such requests are made when no changes are made to any other instruments in the orchestra.
I remember satisfying one now dead eminent maestro who asked for such a thing by swapping my regular lacquered instrument for one of the same size but un-lacquered and very old looking..... he was rich in his praise of this wonderful 'small bore' trombone and the difference it made.
Conductors deal with the music.... we deal with how best to get what they want to actually happen.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:57 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Sep 20, 2017, 11:28PMI suspect many conductors have never encountered an alto trombone.

Any competent conductor has and/or is knowledgeable enough about orchestration to know the difference and be able to make a decision.

That doesn't mean however that they are in a better position to make an informed decision...

Don't ask the conductor. If they care they'll be coming to you anyway, if not, why would you want to ask them?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:07 am

http://kimballtrombone.com/2009/08/07/a-remarkable-brahms-letter-genuine-little-alto-trombone/

not necessarily in regards to the piece in question, but interesting all the same.

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:06 pm

For the OP who asked the original question here, different publishers have used different terminology to differentiate the various trombone parts. Some of them continued to follow the tradition of labelling the parts as alto, tenor and bass some time after the use of the alto was probably not called for. Likewise, you can find modern editions of earlier works where the alto is definitely a good choice but the parts say 1st, 2nd & 3rd, and the publisher has "fixed" the alto part by rewriting it into tenor clef. Like the Wagner, some Bruckner editions also use Alto to differentiate the 1st part. Just to confuse the issue more, there are a few early choral works w/orchestra by Bruckner where some people like to use alto since the range is high, and you need to blend with the altos of the chorus. Generally, however, Bruckner's music lends itself to 2 tenors and a bass for the section.

You won't find 100% agreement on which instruments to use for various pieces, but you'll find a general consensus that the late Romantic rep. belongs on tenor trombone.

Jim Scott

ttf_dbubert · Post by **ttf_dbubert** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:09 pm

"I remember satisfying one now dead eminent maestro..."
Chris Stearn

Chris, God help me when my eyes quickly scanned over this I read it as "one now satisfyingly dead maestro...."

ttf_wkimball · Post by **ttf_wkimball** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:13 pm

Quote from: Rockymountaintrombone on Sep 21, 2017, 03:06PM
You won't find 100% agreement on which instruments to use for various pieces, but you'll find a general consensus that the late Romantic rep. belongs on tenor trombone.

Regarding the original post, I agree that Wagner should be played on tenor, no question. As to whether to play Brahms on alto or tenor, I think there is sufficient evidence to go either way. Incidentally, I have had a conductor approach me in a paid regional orchestra (Arkansas Symphony Orchestra) and specifically request alto trombone (for Schumann 4). This was in the early 2000s and I had never discussed alto trombone with the conductor, played alto for that conductor, or played alto in that orchestra before. So it happens.

A bit of data may be of interest on the broad question of the meaning of "alto trombone." For a tally of the specific pitch/key for alto trombone given in approximately 60 treatises, dictionaries, and methods, 1600-1925, see here:
http://kimballtrombone.com/alto-trombone/treatises-on-alto/
For a list of alto trombone keys specifically mentioned in approximately 20 trade catalogs from the Romantic period, see here:
http://kimballtrombone.com/2012/12/19/alto-trombone-in-19th-century-trade-catalogs/

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:49 pm

When I said late Romantic, I was referring to works like Wagner, Bruckner, etc. I'm also playing Schumann 4th on alto this season.

Brahms is tougher for me, but I recognize that many players have gone to alto for the 1st part in those symphonies. I learned them on tenor in a time when few people, at least in N. America, used altos on Brahms.

Jim Scott

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:10 am

Quote from: Rockymountaintrombone on Sep 29, 2017, 10:49PMWhen I said late Romantic, I was referring to works like Wagner, Bruckner, etc. I'm also playing Schumann 4th on alto this season.

Wagner isn't a late Romantic composer by any standard; he's the same generation as Berlioz, Liszt, Schumann, Mendelssohn, which is in fact the first truly Romantic generation. So he's in fact more early than late.

Bruckner is in the next generation (as is Brahms), which is also not generally considered late Romantic either.

I guess late romantics would include people like Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Dvorak, Fauré, Massenet, Puccini

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:45 am

Wagner was also a conductor and is on record travelling and conducting across the Germanic states and demanding the use of a second tenor trombone when he encountered the alto. See Ottmar Schreiber.

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:44 am

I need Chris to write method book that starts with: In order to satisfy eminent maestros who deal with traffic control and speak to dead composers, one must first...

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:44 am

I need Chris to write method book that starts with: In order to satisfy eminent maestros who deal with traffic control and speak to dead composers, one must first...