C-trombone

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ttf_watermailonman
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_watermailonman » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:03 pm

Hello!

I'm asking if any of you have had any experiece with a C -trombone. I happen to own two. They are described as the "Preacher" model or the Conn model 60h, not to be mixed up with the basstrombone with the same model number. I have just discovered that they can be used  as an alto substitute. I have not thought much of these before, but resently discovered they sound really good with a Bach 12E. Any thoughts? Are there more "preacher" models?

/Tom  Image
ttf_JohnL
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_JohnL » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:18 pm

The Yamaha 350C is similar, but stands in Bb with the an ascending valve to C.

Lots of valve trombones in C in Latin America.
ttf_SBMaestro
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_SBMaestro » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:29 pm

I have an antique Wurlitzer C/Bb trombone, which was originally built in Czechoslovakia (which is stamped on the horn) and then imported to the U.S. for Wurlitzer.  It's .458" bore, and the rotor is not meant to be changed "on the fly"--instead it has a wingnut-shaped knob similar to that on a garden hose faucet that switches the horn from C to Bb.  The horn has all 7 positions in both C and Bb, but it is very obvious that the tight wrap of the Bb attachment makes the horn very stuffy and resistant to letting air pass through without getting tired.  Granted, it's an antique, but I would assume the Conn 60H "Preacher" model would have been rather similar--it looks nearly identical to one.  I don't know about the current Yamaha C/Bb trombones, but I bought this as a curiosity for not much money, rather than as an actual "player."
ttf_SilverBone
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_SilverBone » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:01 am

I have a Besson C trombone.  It plays nicely, but I've never had a reason to perform with it.  I think I would break my brain if I tried to play parts written for an Eb alto trombone in alto clef on a C trombone.
ttf_savio
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_savio » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:56 am

I wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical? Was the old sackbut's in Bb too?

Leif
ttf_svenlarsson
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:30 am

Quote from: savio on Apr 12, 2017, 12:56AMI wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical? Was the old sackbut's in Bb too?

Leif

Why would they build trombones in Bb F Eb in 1500?

Good question. The books in my library tell that the ordinay sackbut (actually called trombnoe) was tuned to A.
Bass in E or D, alto In E or D. That is why we often play reanasance musi in 465, the Bb is the an A.
So I play my bass ackbut tuned to modern D and play it as being in Eb.



ttf_Pre59
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:35 am

Quote from: savio on Apr 12, 2017, 12:56AMI wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical?

Leif

Listen to recordings of a C Melody saxophone, they're neither one thing of another..
ttf_timothy42b
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_timothy42b » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:31 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 12, 2017, 03:30AMWhy would they build trombones in Bb F Eb in 1500?

Good question. The books in my library tell that the ordinay sackbut (actually called trombnoe) was tuned to A.
Bass in E or D, alto In E or D. That is why we often play reanasance musi in 465, the Bb is the an A.
So I play my bass ackbut tuned to modern D and play it as being in Eb.




I think that is the answer.  A was the logical start of the alphabet.  Trombones were in A, which is now Bb.

There is  also an argument that trombones just naturally work well in Bb with the bore diameter usually used, unless you go to big.  That sort of makes sense, but doesn't explain why trumpets and tubas, etc., would also be in Bb. 

There is a US tradition of a Parson's or Preacher's trombone in C.  The reason given is that it would make it easier for unsophisticated musicians to play out of a hymnal.  That doesn't make sense to me on several levels, but I don't have a better theory either. 
ttf_JohnL
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_JohnL » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:51 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Apr 12, 2017, 03:35AMListen to recordings of a C Melody saxophone, they're neither one thing of another..It is what it is - a C Melody Saxophone. They have their own unique sound, for better or worse.

Quote from: timothy42b on Apr 12, 2017, 05:31AMThere is a US tradition of a Parson's or Preacher's trombone in C.  The reason given is that it would make it easier for unsophisticated musicians to play out of a hymnal.  That doesn't make sense to me on several levels, but I don't have a better theory either.At one time, "triple-key" trumpets (C, Bb, and A) were fairly popular for the same reason. Remember that in the era when preacher trombones were popular, a lot of trombone parts were written in treble clef Bb (having recently transitioned from the American brass band standard of a Bb tenor horn).
ttf_SBMaestro
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_SBMaestro » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:54 am

I'm not saying this is the main reason they were built in Bb, but a Bb trombone is the maximum length that gives you 7 positions, and therefore a full chromatic scale without the use of a trigger.
ttf_watermailonman
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_watermailonman » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:53 am

Quote from: SilverBone on Apr 12, 2017, 12:01AMI have a Besson C trombone.  It plays nicely, but I've never had a reason to perform with it.  I think I would break my brain if I tried to play parts written for an Eb alto trombone in alto clef on a C trombone.

Actually this is not hard at all if you can read treble clef in C. I often play jazz parts written in treble clef, Aebersold for example.

It turns out this note:  Image Image is third position on a C-trombone. Same as  Image  Image (8:va basso)

Because of this a part that uses alto-clef and sounds in d-major can be read as a 8va basso C-major part if you just imagine it is in treable clef (non transposing). Actually ALL other clefs I can think of are awkward on the c-trombone except the alto-clef.

/Tom
ttf_BillO
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_BillO » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:01 am

Quote from: SBMaestro on Apr 12, 2017, 07:54AMI'm not saying this is the main reason they were built in Bb, but a Bb trombone is the maximum length that gives you 7 positions, and therefore a full chromatic scale without the use of a trigger.
Depends on how long your arms are.
ttf_Stewbones43
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_Stewbones43 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:23 pm

Just think, if trombones had developed in the key of C all the problems of transposition, bass clef and treble clef (see recent posts -going back about 100 years Image) would be solved/ would never have happened!

Cheers

Stewbones
ttf_BGuttman
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:48 pm

I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with arm length.

The original trombones were made in the key of A (much like the violas and cellos, whose top string is A).  When the pitch standard changed, the trombone suddenly seemed to be in Bb.  Rather than change the length it was decided to keep it as a Bb instrument.  The rest is inertia.
ttf_BillO
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_BillO » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:43 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 12, 2017, 02:48PMI'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with arm length.

The original trombones were made in the key of A (much like the violas and cellos, whose top string is A).  When the pitch standard changed, the trombone suddenly seemed to be in Bb.  Rather than change the length it was decided to keep it as a Bb instrument.  The rest is inertia.
I was referring to maximum length that gives you 7 positions.  Longer arms would allow a longer trombone.  It was my was of saying it had nothing to do with length(s).
ttf_kbiggs
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_kbiggs » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:15 am

A lot of early brass scholars (perhaps David Guion or Byron Pillow could address this?) support the idea that the trombone (sacbut, or trombone before about 1750) was a part of the everyday kit of court and town trumpeters. If you disassemble an old natural trumpet (they used to be held together with beeswax), the "yards" or straight tubes of the trumpet are the same length as the slide. It was several steps in development over many years, but it didn't take long for some inventive player or trumpet maker to come up with the slide trumpet or draught trumpet: put a smaller tube inside a larger tube. You can then move the trumpet away from and closer to your body, but it's awkward and you risk hitting your teeth with the trumpet if you're not careful. It's only a few more steps to say, "If we can put one tube inside another, why can't we put two tubes inside two other tubes?" Voila! The instrument is more stable, and you're moving a crook--the hand slide--rather than the whole instrument. That is, you have a trombone (sacbut) in A, and not a trumpet in D or a slide trumpet in D or C.

The pitch and length of the trombone is a confluence of different factors over time: arbitrary labelling (why is A=440 when sometimes people play A=442, or they used to play A=415 or A=465), custom ("We've always built it this way! We're in a guild!"), ergonomics (what's comfortable to hold and use), and aesthetics (what was pleasing to the ears and eyes of late Medieval and Rennaissance Western Europe?).

As Bruce says, the rest is inertia...
ttf_kbiggs
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C-trombone

Post by ttf_kbiggs » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:15 am

A lot of early brass scholars (perhaps David Guion or Byron Pillow could address this?) support the idea that the trombone (sacbut, or trombone before about 1750) was a part of the everyday kit of court and town trumpeters. If you disassemble an old natural trumpet (they used to be held together with beeswax), the "yards" or straight tubes of the trumpet are the same length as the slide. It was several steps in development over many years, but it didn't take long for some inventive player or trumpet maker to come up with the slide trumpet or draught trumpet: put a smaller tube inside a larger tube. You can then move the trumpet away from and closer to your body, but it's awkward and you risk hitting your teeth with the trumpet if you're not careful. It's only a few more steps to say, "If we can put one tube inside another, why can't we put two tubes inside two other tubes?" Voila! The instrument is more stable, and you're moving a crook--the hand slide--rather than the whole instrument. That is, you have a trombone (sacbut) in A, and not a trumpet in D or a slide trumpet in D or C.

The pitch and length of the trombone is a confluence of different factors over time: arbitrary labelling (why is A=440 when sometimes people play A=442, or they used to play A=415 or A=465), custom ("We've always built it this way! We're in a guild!"), ergonomics (what's comfortable to hold and use), and aesthetics (what was pleasing to the ears and eyes of late Medieval and Rennaissance Western Europe?).

As Bruce says, the rest is inertia...
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