10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

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ttf_Steven
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Steven » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:03 am

It is time for me to alter my daily drills.  Sight unseen, it seems like the Michael Davis books would be useful additions to the mix.  Which should I get?  It would be nice to look at each and pick and choose, but I don't have access to them.  Buying all three at once seems impractical.  What are the advantages of one over the other?
ttf_Chris Fidler
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Chris Fidler » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:10 am

I have the 20 min book and would say that it's more of a maintenance practice book.
I like it a lot but would say it's more than a warm up....... The Super 9th exercise is a ball breaker!!!!

Everything Michael produces is well worth while IMHO Image
ttf_Matt K
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Matt K » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:17 am

They're all very similar.  They all have a backing CD with the first half being the exercises with him playing them and the second half being just the accompanying track. The tracks themselves are sort of rock-ish/pop.  It isn't a drone + metronome for sure.  The exercises in them are not the same but there are only so many variations on slurs and intervals that you can do. So if you want to buy one, you could probably just get the 20 minute one since it technically has the most content. If you only have 15 minutes, then just do fewer of the exercises then, etc.

I will also say that I'm not a huge fan of them though I suppose I can understand their merit.. but I get a lot more out of a few minutes playing with drones like the Tuning CD than I do with background tracks. The Ralph Sauer warmup duet book + CD is my favorite in the genre because its harmonizing with Sauer, not just playing in unison. It still makes you think whereas the backing tracks take some of the element of thinking out of practicing for me which I find to be counter intuitive.  

But different things work for different people so you may have more success than I do with them.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:31 am

I started with the 15-minute book. I think it is essential as a first step in developing the sound you hear on the demo. After that is secure, the 20-minute warm-up will take it further. Just b/c you might be able to play through the simplistic exercises in the 15-minute book doesn't guarantee you can do them perfectly, with a creamy sound and buttery, flawless & seamless transition between notes.

We can all learn the moves in the game of chess in about 10 minutes, then spend a lifetime perfecting our play. I believe those two books are the same concept.

I also believe they should be played in four different ways:

1) with demo background track (to hear how it SHOULD sound)
2) with playalong background track (so the demo track doesn't cover your sound)
3) with a metronome
4) sans a metronome

They can also be played as above in various dynamics. I believe the most difficult is pianissimo.

There is also merit in just listening to the demo track with book in hand, sans the horn.

...Geezer
ttf_Steven
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Steven » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:33 pm

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Nov 03, 2017, 08:10AMI like it a lot but would say it's more than a warm up.......

Thanks.  I'm looking for more than a warm-up. 
ttf_fsgazda
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_fsgazda » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:55 pm

The 15 minute book is basically the Remington routines with backing tracks, which keeps it a little more interesting than just a metronome.  The 20 minute book is pretty tough at times and IMO, should be played slower than the backing tracks allow, at least at first.  Not familiar with the 10 minute.

Dave Vining's routine book has a lot of variation in the different routines, and can be played with a drone and/or metronome for a similar effect to the Davis books.  There are also some metronome apps that have drum-machine like functions that are a little more interesting than click, click, click.

Any routine played with drones and a rhythm track are interesting and beneficial.
ttf_Bob Riddle
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Bob Riddle » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:19 am

While these are called warm-ups,they can be used as so much more.These have the ability to really raise your game for most if not all players.There are three separate books that each one hits different things and the shortest of the three actually has three variations on each exercise allowing a lot of variety in your sessions(all good IMHO).Like any set of exercises you will only get out of them what you put in.Especially as to paying attention to details in your playing/breathing from an accuracy/technical finesse point of view and also how your body is working,maybe needs work in order to be more in coordination with your overall playing/performing.These are certainly not the "only game in town",but they certainly are a great addition to the pedagogical repertoire.My students who practice these have shown significant improvements in sound,flexibility,attack,control, and rhythmic accuracy.My advice,if I may be so bold-"Try it ,you'll like it".
All the Best,
Bob

ttf_bassboneman
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_bassboneman » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:29 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Nov 03, 2017, 08:10AMI have the 20 min book and would say that it's more of a maintenance practice book.
I like it a lot but would say it's more than a warm up....... The Super 9th exercise is a ball breaker!!!!

Everything Michael produces is well worth while IMHO Image
I agree!
FWIW - I use the CD in my car to buzz on a mouthpiece on the way to a gig or rehearsal! It is excellent just for that purpose.

Sam
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:33 am

Here is another approach for these (and any other) routines. When you can get through the exercises very, very well - then try playing through them as softly as possible with great quality tone while extending the phrases in each breath! Can you double phrases up? Can you do two whole lines in one breath and not have anything suffer? No missed notes or pinched tone allowed!

...Geezer
ttf_savio
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_savio » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:52 am

I dont use a book anymore when I warm up. Long notes until I find the sweet sound on each note. Then some few melodies and slurs. And a cooffe, thats the most important part  Image About 15 minutes, cooffee included.

Leif
ttf_svenlarsson
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:07 am

Quote from: savio on Nov 16, 2017, 12:52AMI dont use a book anymore when I warm up. Long notes until I find the sweet sound on each note. Then some few melodies and slurs. And a cooffe, thats the most important part  Image About 15 minutes, cooffee included.

Leif

It was many years ago I used a book for warm up. Long tones, flexes, some arpeggios etc. A book is not making me listen to my sound. Cooffe before, along, and after. Image
Svenne
ttf_blast
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_blast » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:59 am

Cooffee.... love that Image

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_blast » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:04 am

Also agree with Leif and Svenne... no books... warm up the brain and the ears not just the face. Don't get locked into routines.

Chris Stearn
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:01 am

Quote from: blast on Nov 16, 2017, 03:04AMAlso agree with Leif and Svenne... no books... warm up the brain and the ears not just the face. Don't get locked into routines.

Chris Stearn

Well, if one has been playing as long as you guys!  Image

But for me as a student - nothing beats a routine. It gives both a bench-mark and a goal for measuring progress.   Image

The book itself, can't make you do anything. But it's a tool. And like any other tool, if it's helpful - fine. If not, then don't use it.

...Geezer
ttf_Pre59
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:15 am

Quote from: blast on Nov 16, 2017, 03:04AMAlso agree with Leif and Svenne... no books... warm up the brain and the ears not just the face. Don't get locked into routines.

Chris Stearn

I agree, I think that the warmup works best when reflecting the upcoming task. Warming up using the traditional (positions)1 to 7 harmonic series sequence isn't to going to help ease the mind into a creative gear for a jazz gig.

But I can also see the sense in having a structured one for a player who has yet to arrive at his/her targeted playing situation though.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:24 am

Oh, I get it. Yeah, I warm up for a rehearsal or a gig differently as a player than I do at home as a student for my daily growth exercises.  Image

Warming up for a rehearsal or a gig is situational. Daily growth studies at home help to win me that situation.  Image

...Geezer
ttf_Pre59
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:25 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 16, 2017, 04:24AM
I warm up for a rehearsal or a gig differently as a player than I do at home as a student for my daily growth exercises.  Image

...Geezer

IMO yes.


ttf_timothy42b
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_timothy42b » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:33 am

I have a morning routine.  I don't call it a warmup although I suppose the first few notes is one.

It's pretty much the same every morning so I haven't needed a book in a very long time.  It does include coffee. 

We attended a session Michael Davis did at JMU last year including playing along with his backing tracks.  He is very good at doing those seminars and his backing tracks made it both interesting and challenging.  I probably should buy his CD, but I'm not sure how to fit much more into the time I have.  Josh Hauser has free backing tracks on his site but you can't download them, at least I couldn't figure out how.  I did play along with them when he did a "warmup" at ATW last year. 

You'd think doing the same thing every day would be boring but Dave Taylor told us at one of his sessions that he'd started every day with an hour of scales, for the past 40 years. 
ttf_sonicsilver
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_sonicsilver » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:00 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 16, 2017, 06:33AMYou'd think doing the same thing every day would be boring but Dave Taylor told us at one of his sessions that he'd started every day with an hour of scales, for the past 40 years. 

I think it's a safe bet that Dave Taylor does something interesting with his scales....
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:12 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 16, 2017, 06:33AMI have a morning routine.  I don't call it a warmup although I suppose the first few notes is one.

It's pretty much the same every morning so I haven't needed a book in a very long time.  It does include coffee. 

We attended a session Michael Davis did at JMU last year including playing along with his backing tracks.  He is very good at doing those seminars and his backing tracks made it both interesting and challenging.  I probably should buy his CD, but I'm not sure how to fit much more into the time I have.  Josh Hauser has free backing tracks on his site but you can't download them, at least I couldn't figure out how.  I did play along with them when he did a "warmup" at ATW last year. 

You'd think doing the same thing every day would be boring but Dave Taylor told us at one of his sessions that he'd started every day with an hour of scales, for the past 40 years. 

You don't have to "download" music files if you can play them from the source. Just open up Audacity and hit record, then play the files from the source and save your recording. Anything that can run through your sound card can be recorded with Audacity. There is even software available to record anything the goes onto the screen as well as through the sound card.

If we always strive to play scales as technically perfect and as musical as possible, how could it ever be boring. Same with a daily routine. But it's obviously not for everyone...

...Geezer
ttf_timothy42b
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_timothy42b » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:32 am

Quote from: sonicsilver on Nov 16, 2017, 07:00AMI think it's a safe bet that Dave Taylor does something interesting with his scales....

Uh, no, but I don't want to share it here.

ttf_Steven
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Steven » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:01 am

To (hopefully) be clear, the reason we are using the expression "warm-up" is that is what the books are called.  I'm not looking for the notes to play that will get me ready for the day.  I'm looking for exercises to add to daily maintenance routines.  I haven't used a book for my daily maintenance routine in years.  I've gotten exercises from Remington, Buddy Baker, and various other places, and adapted them to my purposes.  Having played mostly the same stuff for a few years, it is time to add to the mix.  I've run out of my own ideas, and need to get new ideas.  The idea is to mix in a full range of range, articulations, dynamics, intervals.  When I do this, all my playing improves. 

If I had an hour to spend on scales, would I?
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:02 am

QuoteYou'd think doing the same thing every day would be boring but Dave Taylor told us at one of his sessions that he'd started every day with an hour of scales, for the past 40 years.
Well, that is not a warm up for me, that is what I might do after the warm up. Still without books. There is so much you can do with scales, and many scales to practise, and many scale patterns to use, there is a reason for one hour scales for a guy like Dave Taylor. I do not play scales for one hour every day, but pretty often I do, more than an hour sometimes. I like playing scales.
ttf_timothy42b
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_timothy42b » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:36 am

Quote from: Steven on Nov 16, 2017, 08:01AMI'm looking for exercises to add to daily maintenance routines. 
That makes sense, now.

You might consider working through the Reinhardt Routines or at least the 5 page Warmup #57, and of course the Maxted are challenging. 

Then there are the Brad Edwards Lip Slurs. 

For a while I was playing the Lyrical Studies out of the Arban trumpet book, in their range, a new one each day, but I added something else to the routine and those had to go.

Some people play the Concone vocalizes. 
ttf_Steven
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Steven » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:27 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 16, 2017, 09:36AM
Then there are the Brad Edwards Lip Slurs. 


Yes, I want to add those back into the mix.  My copy seems to have wandered off to Ohio.
ttf_W/SBTRB
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_W/SBTRB » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:04 pm

I like to think of warm ups being a shortened version of my routine. My routine is about 25 minutes in length and contains at least one item from each of my teachers. Probably half comes from the Remington Warm ups and material Allen Ostrander Bass Trombone Method. If I am consistent with my Routine I need only about 5 minutes to warmup. 
ttf_Steven
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Steven » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:10 pm

My "20 Minute Warm-Up" has arrived.  As much as anything, it exposes holes in my technique.  I've got work to do.  I also reacquired Brad Edward "Lip Slurs".  Both of these books move me around the horn more than my pre-existing routines.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:03 am

Quote from: Steven on Dec 01, 2017, 08:10PMMy "20 Minute Warm-Up" has arrived.  As much as anything, it exposes holes in my technique.  I've got work to do.  I also reacquired Brad Edward "Lip Slurs".  Both of these books move me around the horn more than my pre-existing routines.

I believe that would be a very typical reaction to some of those "extreme" flexibility exercises.

FWIW, I try to keep two things in mind:

1) When I play in a group, nobody knows or cares where I am in that 20-minute book (or that it even exists) and how competent I might be. All they know is what they hear and if they like what they hear, then I am judged accordingly

B) Every little incremental gain I make in that book (even if I still can't do all the exercises perfectly) translates into larger gains I can hear in my actual playing.

I feel it is worth it to humble myself inside my music studio with that book - where no one can hear me honk - so that when I play in an outside group, I make nicer noises.

...Geezer
ttf_Geezerhorn
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10 Minute Warm-Up vs. 15 Minute Warm-up vs. 20 Minute Warm-up

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:03 am

Quote from: Steven on Dec 01, 2017, 08:10PMMy "20 Minute Warm-Up" has arrived.  As much as anything, it exposes holes in my technique.  I've got work to do.  I also reacquired Brad Edward "Lip Slurs".  Both of these books move me around the horn more than my pre-existing routines.

I believe that would be a very typical reaction to some of those "extreme" flexibility exercises.

FWIW, I try to keep two things in mind:

1) When I play in a group, nobody knows or cares where I am in that 20-minute book (or that it even exists) and how competent I might be. All they know is what they hear and if they like what they hear, then I am judged accordingly

B) Every little incremental gain I make in that book (even if I still can't do all the exercises perfectly) translates into larger gains I can hear in my actual playing.

I feel it is worth it to humble myself inside my music studio with that book - where no one can hear me honk - so that when I play in an outside group, I make nicer noises.

...Geezer
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