"Letter M"

Post Reply
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:24 am

Very often the "letter M" is used to explain the formation of the lips to form an embouchure.

What letter M?

How many ways are there to say M? Many, And more, different for different language.

What is gained from the "letter M"? The lips meet. The same way as they meet when you are playing?

Maybe if you are lucky. Swedes ofte say mmm with the lips pressed together, witch is actually a common problem for

many students, to much compression between the lips.

Also wery often students in Sweden put the lower lip in fron of the upper lip when say mmm or turn one or two lips

inwards, but can not play like that.

Thoughts?
ttf_bigbassbone1
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:20 am

I dont think i ever heard any of my teachers say that. I dont think i was aware of it being a way to teach how to firm the lips until quite late in life.
I dont hate the idea of it.... the lips meet but you dont force them together with pressure, (you dont crunch them together when you use that "M" sounds in normal conversation) it activates the corners a little bit.... i dunno. I dont think it could do any major damage to a student.

I had a teacher for a while who would tell me to put my top lip on the top rim of the mouthpiece and bottom lip on the bottom. I dont think i ever did it literally, but as a concept it really helped broaden my sound. Come to think of it, I dont think i ever had a teacher that taught a specific way of how for form an embouchure. Unless you really know how you want to do it, I think over thinking it is one of the most counterproductive things you can do. Especially a student...

"M" is probably good then based on that train of thought..... gives you a good start without being able to do much damage and is a super simple concept so you aren't going to over think it.
ttf_Matt K
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Matt K » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:40 am

I was taught a variation of it: "Hmmmmmm" (humming).  That's one of the few things I learned in Music Ed school that I think actually makes sense, particularly because it was in an American context where "Hmmm" doesn't really change the location of the lips drastically much, but insinuates how to keep the lips somewhat firm.  Its a good starting point and normally there is another set of instructions that follows, but that instruction changes drastically depending on what happens next. To the best of my knowledge, I'm unaware of any other common thing we do with our lips that would serve as a better indicator of how to start out. It also serves the dual purpose of reducing tension in students. A lot of times when I see a student approach the trombone for the firs ttime, they tense up. A LOT.  You can demonstrate to them how a tense hum feels and sounds different than a relaxed one.

Certainly makes more sense than telling them to smile  Image
ttf_davdud101
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_davdud101 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:38 am

I've never had an embouchure-specific lesson, but I know for myself that I form an embouchure more reminiscent of how the lips form when saying the letter "P" rather than M. That is, a *little* bit of lip curl as opposed to straight-on-the-lips, like M would do for me.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_savio » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:37 pm

I tell my beginners to form lips like mmm in first lesson, but also to not press so hard together. Just put the lips together a natural way and not do anything weird things. Then we make that buzz without mouthpiece. I use this only in first lesson. And my priority is to do the buzz as natural as possible. Not do any weird or to much tension. Maybe letter p is better? I will try that one to.

But I dont explain or use too many words. Mostly this go ok by it self. If it doesn't I try buzzing with them both with and without mouthpiece , together. If that doesn't work I'm not sure what to do. Depends on the kid and what he do. What I have noticed is some of them believe they have to do many weird things, and I then try to take that away. I don't tell much about the mouth because I have a limit in knowledge about it.

Leif
ttf_Burgerbob
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Burgerbob » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:22 am

In the US, M (for most students I work with) is a pretty tame consonant, with most of them just putting the lips together with no pressure.

Maybe a side effect of bad pronunciation? Not sure, but it's a good way to get younger students to get the concept of having the chops together but not squeezed.
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:36 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Feb 14, 2017, 12:22AMIn the US, M (for most students I work with) is a pretty tame consonant, with most of them just putting the lips together with no pressure.

Maybe a side effect of bad pronunciation? Not sure, but it's a good way to get younger students to get the concept of having the chops together but not squeezed.

I thought of that. I think "Letter M" is different from "Bokstaven M" (Swedish).

As the "Tu" Tha" "Do" and more is different in different languages.

Yes maybe "P" could work sometimes.?
ttf_bonenick
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_bonenick » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:44 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Feb 14, 2017, 01:36AMI thought of that. I think "Letter M" is different from "Bokstaven M" (Swedish).

As the "Tu" Tha" "Do" and more is different in different languages.

Yes maybe "P" could work sometimes.?

If you do this with your student in front of you, it will be very easy to tell whether he uses the right "M". It is not a big discussion, it is quite visible, while other things, not so visible (tongiung and position of the tongue) are not so easy diagnose and correct.
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:26 am

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 14, 2017, 01:44AMIf you do this with your student in front of you, it will be very easy to tell whether he uses the right "M". It is not a big discussion, it is quite visible, while other things, not so visible (tongiung and position of the tongue) are not so easy diagnose and correct.

Absolutelly true.

But when using the "M" metafor in a seminar or a book the situation is different.

My situation is different since I don´t teach beginners any more (I am 73 years old  this year) but sometimes I meet older players who still compress their lips together, thinking "M". "That is what xxxx said in a seminar".
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_anonymous » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:21 am

Hi,

An interesting topic that I had to think about for a few days before formulating a reply (which I've also had to edit).  Image This is not a definitive answer as to when M should be used, but just a couple of ideas regarding linguistic issues that can tie into the letters M and P.

Often, the expression "like the letter M" refers to forming the letter M, not using the letter M in a word. In English, Swedish, German and probably most languages, we precede the formation of the voiced M sound with a vowel. The lips touch lightly to end the formation of the "letter". The key here is that the lips should meet in a relaxed manner even though the embouchure (mouth corners) is firm.

Of course not everyone's lips meet at exactly the same place depending on their physical attributes (teeth, lips, jaw) and I suppose that is an important aspect as to the relevance of the M as a universally suitable device for embouchure formation.

If one, on the other hand, were to think of different words or sounds starting with M, the exact formation and pressure of the initial consonant would be influenced by the following vowel sound and this is probably not a good thing.

The problem with the letter P is its explosive nature. This sound is formed by building up pressure (not a relaxed consonant at all) and releasing it, and it is probably worth noting that the following vowel differs depending on the player's language. The letter P is pronounced differently in English and Swedish and there will be slight differences in the formation of the lips and the position of the tongue due to the different vowel sounds. Not that you are saying that one should say "P" but I bet that the player would be influenced somewhat subconsciously by how the letter is normally pronounced.


Regards,

Everett
ttf_Exzaclee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Exzaclee » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:17 am

Sam Burtis writes about this a little in his book "Time Balance and Connections." I don't want to attempt to paraphrase what he says because I'll most likely screw it up - if he wants he can come by and describe it. His swinging saloon door analogy really helps in this regard. With my students I don't really discuss this much unless they are having problems - and even then I'm just trying to get them to understand the concepts, I don't want them over thinking it and I don't want to mess them up.

When I first saw this post I thought it might be some esoteric discussion about the movie "M" or the Donnie McCaslin tune "M". Wanna do your head in? Experience both...
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:49 am

I much prefer Sam:s swinging saloon door analogy.
Actually that is brilliant.

No I don´t like the M, yes it can work if you really show a student how to tweet the M.
But then it is not a real M anymore.
ttf_Pre59
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:56 am

I go with "M" because IMO it opens the door to the idea of an "active" aperture that can be controlled and adjusted throughout the range and/or volume.
ttf_stealthheartocarinaZ
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_stealthheartocarinaZ » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:13 pm

Someone once taught me to say "poe" to set up my embouchure. I'm not entirely sure if this is accurate, but it has helped me a lot when I was struggling with my embouchure.
ttf_robcat2075
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:20 pm

Are they not able to hum in Swedish without mashing their lips together too hard?
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:50 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Yesterday at 09:20 PMAre they not able to hum in Swedish without mashing their lips together too hard?
Image
Oh yes. Is that how you set your embouchure?

Does that work for you? Image

To me the "M" that actually work is combinated with "tuck in the corners" and set your jaw,
though often enough that instruction is not needed.
 
I can hum in a way that resembles how my trombone embouchure is set.
When I hum (without mashing my lips together)the "M" is not the "M" that I play trombone on. Of course I can hum with my corners tucked in, that is not how Swedish chorus singers hum though. Or American.

Na, the letter "M" does only work if you are in the same room with the student, and not allways even then.

ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:47 am

Ghitalla from https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... tation.pdf
He felt that any begining student should not touch the trumpet unless supervised by a teacher who can help the player set up a correct embouchure. Ghitall devised a very specific process for the basic formation of an embouchure:
1 Without the trumpet or mouthpiece, roll the in as if saying the letter "m", if this  is done correctly, no red part of the lips should show.
2 Blow an airstream through the center of the lips without unrolling them. Saying piiiip or peeeep while blowing can help this.
3 The teacher should place the mouthpiece on the students lips while they are holding the "m" formation. Placement should be 50-50 on the top and botto, lips, and reasonable centered side to side.
4 The students should hold the mouthpuece and blow the same airstream as step 2, The student should only be blowing air and not making a buzz.
5 Join the trumpet to the mouthpiece and have the student play the first note wich is second line G or higher. The student should not play lower then the G for thhree to five days in order to set the embouchure.

That is an explanation of the "say M" that is specific. To evaluate remember that Armando Ghitalla was a well known trumper and teacher.
ttf_robcat2075
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:53 am

QuoteWithout the trumpet or mouthpiece, roll the in as if saying the letter "m", if this  is done correctly, no red part of the lips should show.
Maybe that's  fair generalization but maybe it doesn't account for wide variety of lips among people.

If I look at a picture of Wynton Marsalis, with his trumpet in place, his upper lip is like that but his lower lip has a lot of red showing. He's got more red lower lip showing than I have in two lips.

I tried looking for a similar picture of Ghitalla playing but couldn't find a clear one.













ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:21 am

QuoteWithout the trumpet or mouthpiece, roll the in as if saying the letter "m", if this  is done correctly, no red part of the lips should show.Quote from: robcat2075 on Yesterday at 06:53 AMMaybe that's  fair generalization but maybe it doesn't account for wide variety of lips among people.

If I look at a picture of Wynton Marsalis, with his trumpet in place, his upper lip is like that but his lower lip has a lot of red showing. He's got more red lower lip showing than I have in two lips.

I tried looking for a similar picture of Ghitalla playing but couldn't find a clear one.



Yes, there are many methods, many of them does not fit everybody.
There are also good players who place their mpc differently.
But he describes the "M" in a way that you can understand. Not that it is a common way to say "M". And, many players do not play like that.

ttf_W/SBTRB
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_W/SBTRB » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:59 am

There are pedagogical Brass method books that suggest using "em" or saying the word "hum" or"m". I believe that it is more for the concept than actually teaching student the correct embouchure. When an elementary band director is teaching a heterogeneous instrument class consisting of a large number of students, they teach from the idea of where is the common ground that can fit all the instruments. Those who teach beginners are constantly on the look out for ideas to help their students. Somebody could do a study of how differing languages effects the the formation of the embouchure... if it even does. Or one could do like Allen Ostrander would say to me "just do it!"
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_boneagain » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:08 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jul 07, 2017, 06:53AMMaybe that's  fair generalization but maybe it doesn't account for wide variety of lips among people.

If I look at a picture of Wynton Marsalis, with his trumpet in place, his upper lip is like that but his lower lip has a lot of red showing. He's got more red lower lip showing than I have in two lips.

I tried looking for a similar picture of Ghitalla playing but couldn't find a clear one.

How about this one? https://trompemundo.wordpress.com/2014/ ... s-stevens/

But I think the point is NOT the rolled in lips, but the very specific description of what is meant by "...saying the letter..."

I agree with the core idea here: every language says "M" differently, and within a language, most people have their own variations on saying "M", and based on lip and face structure, "M" might not even be the right syllable.  

Where "M" DOES work, it's great.  But I agree it takes a knowledgable teaching watching to help the studnent find the right model.

But I also think a beginner NEEDS something like "M."  With NO playing background at all, the beginner needs something from HIS OR HER OWN backgrond to help get a toehold.  "Firm corners" means nothing to someone who has never made conscious use of face muscles.  My hat is off to the folks who regularly get students to make their first-ever buzz!
ttf_Wilktone
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Wilktone » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 am

Lip vermillion has so much variety (and confusion about its role in brass embouchures) that I prefer brass players and teachers virtually ignore it altogether. Ghitalla's recommendation would result in a lip position way too rolled in for me to play.

Donald Reinhardt used "like the letter M" in his discussions about embouchure formation. Here are a couple I found:

QuoteThe expressions "like the later M", "remember the letter M", etc., refer to the vibrating point or the vibrating area of the upper lip reaching down and slightly inward so that it overlaps and makes light contact with the lower lip vibrating area. This idea of the upper lip reaching down and slightly inward like the letter M is often suggested to certain physical types in the PIVOT SYSTEM as an added point while the mouthpiece placement is being enacted, during the inhalation, and often to ascend the register of the instrument.
QuoteThe prepare to buzz, the lips should be saturated with saliva, the membrane of the lower lip is drawn slightly in and over the lower teeth (not by smiling), and the center of the vibrating area of the upper lip reaches down (like enunciating the letter "M") so that it makes a light contact and overlaps the lower lip a trifle.
I agree that simply telling a student to make an embouchure by "saying M" is problematic, particularly on an online forum where you can't see the results. Even these more detailed explanations are open to interpretation and can lead someone along the wrong path. In person lessons are best.

Dave
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:35 am

I think we are comming to an agreement?
The letter M can be said in so many ways, it merrely say that the lips do touch, and it is still not enough since that can be done in different ways also.

I do wonder about Ghitallas advice, Maybe what he said is not to be taken letterly?
I don´t know, he was a really bad trumpeter though.

ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_savio » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:11 am

Quote from: W/SBTRB on Jul 07, 2017, 08:59AMOr one could do like Allen Ostrander would say to me "just do it!"

Please tell more about Allen Ostrander, you was a student of him? I have some of his method books for bass trombone.

Have anyone tried using the letter "P" ? Then you nearly dont have to use the tongue. And you get a beautiful clean start on soft notes.

Leif


ttf_Wilktone
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Wilktone » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:09 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 09, 2017, 01:35AMI think we are comming to an agreement?
The letter M can be said in so many ways, it merrely say that the lips do touch, and it is still not enough since that can be done in different ways also.
Maybe, but maybe not. I agree that without additional description just saying "like saying M" can be problematic. I also can't really say how it's different for folks in Sweden or countries other than the U.S., but it seems to be useful in my neck of the woods.

Ultimately we can reduce all trombone instruction down to the advice that it's better to get someone to show you in person. Who was it who said "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture?" Why not simply lock all the content boards here and just make everything about the Chit Chat section if we're not going to do our best to try to describe into words something that is challenging, if not impossible to do?

QuoteOr one could do like Allen Ostrander would say to me "just do it!"
With respect to Ostrander, I think the reason to avoid this is because:

A) It doesn't help the student to become their own best teacher by understanding the mechanics of brass technique better. While I acknowledge that a lot of playing the trombone is "knacky" and requires the student to experiment and find his or her own way, there are some ways that are more likely to provide long-term success than others. You can just as easily get better at playing wrong and think you're on the right track.

B) It doesn't help the student to understand the mechanics of brass technique well enough to offer advice to their own students. Most musicians are also teachers. At the very least, many will offer advice on an internet forum.

C) It encourages a lack of curiosity, questioning, and analysis. It's intellectually lazy to reduce everything to "just do it." Sure, a lot of the time (maybe even most of the time) students need to keep an external focus while playing the horn, but they deserve to have their questions answered and they deserve to learn how and when to do the analysis. Too often I feel that "just do it" becomes a cover for "I don't really know and I'm not going to admit it and do my homework to get back to you next week."

QuoteHave anyone tried using the letter "P" ? Then you nearly dont have to use the tongue. And you get a beautiful clean start on soft notes.
I've heard this many times, but I don't think that one should begin a note by putting your lips together and immediately commencing blowing. Maybe "like the letter P" could be a way to get a student to correctly set the lips in position, but if you want to practice breath attacks I think it's much better to set the lips together first, then use the idea of "hoo, no tongue attack."

Or at least these are my opinions. Make your own choices.

Dave
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:10 am

 QuoteI agree that without additional description just saying "like saying M" can be problematic. I also can't really say how it's different for folks in Sweden or countries other than the U.S., but it seems to be useful in my neck of the woods.
In a teaching situation the "M" can be used with succes. Or not. It is never enough though. I am sure even in USA there are many ways to say "M", well actually I know there are.
QuoteUltimately we can reduce all trombone instruction down to the advice that it's better to get someone to show you in person. Who was it who said "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture?" Why not simply lock all the content boards here and just make everything about the Chit Chat section if we're not going to do our best to try to describe into words something that is challenging, if not impossible to do?Sure. People can learn to drive a car by the self to. That is not a good reason to not talking and discous stuff like "M" and other metaphores.

"Just do it" may be used in a situation. Sometimes doing an exercise can help even if we do not understand why.

Letter "P" may also be usefull in some situations. Students have so many different attidudes and problems.
I don´t think the "P" should be used as a "standard" method without caution. Neither do I think the "M" should be used without caution.

Ostranders methods books are usefull, I did play lots of Ostrander about 50 years ago. Good stuff. I used it for many students.
I do have an issue with his possions for the F VALVE when the F is on a good first position he tell the low Eb is on "flatted 3rd". Leif have you noticed how so may players play low Eb sharp? Or play in tube with the slide to short and lipping down? I believe in their mind they think flatted 3rd so losng that they get accostumed to the sharp position. I like Lew Gillis #4 for low Eb.
 
 As usual look out for the miss spelling in my posts.


[fixed quotes but not spelling...]
ttf_Blowero
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Blowero » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:46 pm

I think it was Miles Davis who said this, but I could be remembering wrong. Forming an embouchure is like trying to spit a seed out of your mouth.
ttf_sabutin
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_sabutin » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:45 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jul 15, 2017, 05:46PMI think it was Miles Davis who said this, but I could be remembering wrong. Forming an embouchure is like trying to spit a seed out of your mouth.

That's an old school jazz idea. Not just Miles...many jazz brass players. I have heard it attributed to Roy Eldridge, myself. It works, too.

"M", "P", spitting a seed out of one's mouth...they all depend on the mouth in question. Thick lips/thin lips, big teeth/small teeth, big tongue/small tongue...whatever. A balance must be found...or perhaps better, a set of balances through the ranges...between the essentially non-adjustable upper lip (It can only roll, and not very far) and the incredibly adjustable (with the aid of the movable jaw) lower lip. It's all very individual.

This is where freebuzzing can be very useful. With practice, one can freebuzz with the lower lip in any number of positions vis-á-vis the upper lip...further back, further forward, etc...through particular registers and volumes, but only a few of these positions can be put into a m'pce or playing the horn with good results through many registers and volumes.

S.
ttf_ALT
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_ALT » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:05 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jul 15, 2017, 05:46PMI think it was Miles Davis who said this, but I could be remembering wrong. Forming an embouchure is like trying to spit a seed out of your mouth.

Quote from: sabutin on Jul 15, 2017, 08:45PMThat's an old school jazz idea. Not just Miles...many jazz brass players. I have heard it attributed to Roy Eldridge, myself. It works, too.


In Jules Levy's "Cornet Instruction Book" (1895) he describes an embouchure formation (I paraphrase) as trying to get rid of a hair that is on your tongue. Basically the same concept.


Source: http://sheetmusic.library.sc.edu/MusicP ... 1&mid=2991 (Page 3)


Would love to hear someone play exercise 302 (page 61) from this book, too!
ttf_Blowero
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Blowero » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:08 pm

Quote from: ALT on Jul 15, 2017, 09:05PMIn Jules Levy's "Cornet Instruction Book" (1895) he describes an embouchure formation (I paraphrase) as trying to get rid of a hair that is on your tongue. Basically the same concept.
Ha, I like that one!
ttf_Doug Elliott
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:18 pm

What kind of hair?
...never mind...
ttf_ALT
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_ALT » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:00 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 15, 2017, 10:18PMWhat kind of hair?
...never mind...

Unicorn
ttf_Pre59
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:37 pm

Hare lip?
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:55 am

I have been practising Phil Teelys book for some time now. His advice "try to keep the "M" all the way down" All the way down means the lowest you can sound. Most of us are used the shift around form pedal E or D, me to. I have now been practising down to may be double pedal G without shift, trying to keep the "M".

You know what!

My "M" has changed! Not only in the low!

Another thing that have happend ios that Sam:s "Buzz on and off" Works like a charm!
I found the "M" that is really naturall for me. After 65 years of playing! After mor that 50 years playing proffesional!

There are many kinds of "M". Not all works.
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:00 am

Quote from: sabutin on Jul 15, 2017, 08:45PM
"M", "P", spitting a seed out of one's mouth...they all depend on the mouth in question. Thick lips/thin lips, big teeth/small teeth, big tongue/small tongue...whatever. A balance must be found...or perhaps better, a set of balances through the ranges...between the essentially non-adjustable upper lip (It can only roll, and not very far) and the incredibly adjustable (with the aid of the movable jaw) lower lip. It's all very individual.

This is where freebuzzing can be very useful. With practice, one can freebuzz with the lower lip in any number of positions vis-á-vis the upper lip...further back, further forward, etc...through particular registers and volumes, but only a few of these positions can be put into a m'pce or playing the horn with good results through manyregisters and volumes.

S.

Absolutely!
ttf_sabutin
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_sabutin » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:32 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Yesterday at 05:55 AMI have been practising Phil Teelys book for some time now. His advice "try to keep the "M" all the way down" All the way down means the lowest you can sound. Most of us are used the shift around form pedal E or D, me to. I have now been practising down to may be double pedal G without shift, trying to keep the "M".

You know what!

My "M" has changed! Not only in the low!

Another thing that have happend ios that Sam:s "Buzz on and off" Works like a charm!
I found the "M" that is really naturall for me. After 65 years of playing! After mor that 50 years playing proffesional!

There are many kinds of "M". Not all works.

I am glad to have been able to help, Svenne. It's hard to get people's serious attention with new ideas, and doubly hard when they feel they might be risking their abilities by trying something new. All I can say is...as you have done...unless you are perfectly happy with the way you play now, don't be afraid to try new things. If something doesn't work, you'll know fairly soon after trying it and you can always go back to the way that you have been playing fairly easily.

I've been a trombone "experimenter" since I was in my early 20s.

Still learning.

Try everything and use what works.

For you.

Later...

S.
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:36 am

 Image
It is all about balance.
Thank you!
ttf_sabutin
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_sabutin » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:04 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Yesterday at 07:36 AM Image
It is all about balance.
Thank you!

I am happy to have been of help.

S.
ttf_Pre59
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:03 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Yesterday at 07:32 AM
It's hard to get people's serious attention with new ideas, and doubly hard when they feel they might be risking their abilities by trying something new.


I couldn't agree more, there's a kind of fear that to discuss a technique that's unfamiliar could be rocking the boat, or creating "ripples in the field".
ttf_Pre59
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm

"Letter M"

Post by ttf_Pre59 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:03 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Yesterday at 07:32 AM
It's hard to get people's serious attention with new ideas, and doubly hard when they feel they might be risking their abilities by trying something new.


I couldn't agree more, there's a kind of fear that to discuss a technique that's unfamiliar could be rocking the boat, or creating "ripples in the field".
Post Reply

Return to “Pedagogy”