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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:32 pm

Either this guy is the most brilliant brass player ever or a total pile of crap:

JIM PANDOLFI

I don't know what to make of it...

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_svenlarsson » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:54 pm

He is great. What is it that you wonder about?
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Post by ttf_blast » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:57 pm

Lots of hype in the words but I hear a lot of things that are sense to me in approach. Neither of your extremes .... in some ways mainstream... with spin.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_anonymous » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:16 pm

I went to school with Jim Pandolfi - he was great then, and by reputation became greater through the years.

He went through a lot with his eyesight issues to get and keep a job at the highest level. Very inspiring guy who has had a lot of success helping trumpet students through the years. I would guess, however, that his ideas would be best represented in a one on one student/teacher setting than in this video format.

No matter what, I can tell you that he's the real deal as a player and teacher, and has helped a lot of young players turn their playing around.

Jim Scott
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Thanks guys. What I'm wondering about are his teaching methods, if I can understand about 2 year's worth of his lessons summed up in a 45-minute video (which admittedly isn't fair to him).

For one thing, his discredit of the 1-2-3-inhale-blow method seems to fly in the face of Sam's Caruso teachings about getting the hoof, mouth & air in sync with the horn.

Also, while he makes a strong argument for "conversational" breathing, how the heck do you do that and still make a long phrase when you have diminished lung capacity?

I get his displeasure at the term "centering" substituting his concept of "the sweet spot", as pertains to making nice-sounding notes. It does seem to translate better.

But the overall impression I got was that he basically threw the pedagogy book out the window and substituted his own reality. I just wondered how that sat with anyone on this Forum who watched his video.

One thing that came across quite clear is what a personal guy he is; one whom would be a wonderful man with which to sit around and gab.  All his experiences and stories are fascinating - if that sample is any indication and I think it pretty much is.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_mwpfoot » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:51 pm

That was really fun. I think I love him.

Try it all, etc.

 Image
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Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:00 pm

I haven't watched the video yet, does it explain WTH "the taper" is?
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Post by ttf_Weston Sprott » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:37 pm

This video resonates with me big time.  I wish more teachers were like this.
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Post by ttf_hyperbolica » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:56 pm

He begins by complaining about terminology and then proceeds to throw around even more jargon. It must make sense once you've been there, but he's trying to lead people there Who have never been.  He explains ot all with metaphor,  but you need some key in real experience to understand.

He's a very entertaining guy,  I would probably wish for something a little more concrete if I were his student,  though. I wish he had played that trumpet instead of just holding it.  Great stories,  though.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:46 pm

Yeah, I wanted him to play something other than a simple toot as well. Who was it - Jack Benny? Did he ever actually play the violin on his show?

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:51 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Feb 01, 2017, 07:46PM... Who was it - Jack Benny? Did he ever actually play the violin on his show?

...Geezer

Actually, he did play the opening of an etude once or twice.  On the other hand he did a solo at Carnegie Hall on it.
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:28 pm

Always great to hear concepts and ideas from great players! Thanks for posting!

I personally did not like his use of the word "misconceptions" for those 3 points at the start of the video. Personally I like having a high chest and focusing on that area when i breathe, but for SOME people "breathing low" works fantastically well. It is absolutely NOT a misconception in my opinion, just another option for people to try. I felt the same when he talked negatively about using vowels like "A" or "O" in the mouth when you blow. Again, that is absolutely not a misconception, just something that works for some and not others. I have played and studied with plenty of world standard trombone players who have success performing and teaching the use of the "O" vowel in the mouth. But also on the flip side, i have absolutely seen players it doesn't work for. Again, not a misconception, just another option to try.

What do others think about his concept of "sitting on top of the sound"? I may have misunderstood, but from what i heard he was talking about the taper being when the player really lets their body go in a relaxed way to find where the pitch sits naturally with minimal body interference. I was surprised to hear him say the pitch goes up with a lot of people.... it definitely doesn't in my playing and personally i would be surprised to hear more TROMBONE players (I dont know enough about trumpet) say that their pitch was raised when they did this. I would have thought the pitch lowering would be much more common.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 01, 2017, 08:28PMAlways great to hear concepts and ideas from great players! Thanks for posting!

I personally did not like his use of the word "misconceptions" for those 3 points at the start of the video. Personally I like having a high chest and focusing on that area when i breathe, but for SOME people "breathing low" works fantastically well. It is absolutely NOT a misconception in my opinion, just another option for people to try. I felt the same when he talked negatively about using vowels like "A" or "O" in the mouth when you blow. Again, that is absolutely not a misconception, just something that works for some and not others. I have played and studied with plenty of world standard trombone players who have success performing and teaching the use of the "O" vowel in the mouth. But also on the flip side, i have absolutely seen players it doesn't work for. Again, not a misconception, just another option to try.

What do others think about his concept of "sitting on top of the sound"? I may have misunderstood, but from what i heard he was talking about the taper being when the player really lets their body go in a relaxed way to find where the pitch sits naturally with minimal body interference. I was surprised to hear him say the pitch goes up with a lot of people.... it definitely doesn't in my playing and personally i would be surprised to hear more TROMBONE players (I dont know enough about trumpet) say that their pitch was raised when they did this. I would have thought the pitch lowering would be much more common.

Good posts.

I also wondered about that "taper" thing. When I picked up my horn after the video, I noticed my pitch also tends to go down if I "let it go" at the end. Perhaps the physics of the trombone is different from that of a trumpet. Or maybe we both just aren't of that mold he spoke of. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we know it.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_blast » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:53 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 01, 2017, 08:28PMAlways great to hear concepts and ideas from great players! Thanks for posting!

I personally did not like his use of the word "misconceptions" for those 3 points at the start of the video. Personally I like having a high chest and focusing on that area when i breathe, but for SOME people "breathing low" works fantastically well. It is absolutely NOT a misconception in my opinion, just another option for people to try. I felt the same when he talked negatively about using vowels like "A" or "O" in the mouth when you blow. Again, that is absolutely not a misconception, just something that works for some and not others. I have played and studied with plenty of world standard trombone players who have success performing and teaching the use of the "O" vowel in the mouth. But also on the flip side, i have absolutely seen players it doesn't work for. Again, not a misconception, just another option to try.

What do others think about his concept of "sitting on top of the sound"? I may have misunderstood, but from what i heard he was talking about the taper being when the player really lets their body go in a relaxed way to find where the pitch sits naturally with minimal body interference. I was surprised to hear him say the pitch goes up with a lot of people.... it definitely doesn't in my playing and personally i would be surprised to hear more TROMBONE players (I dont know enough about trumpet) say that their pitch was raised when they did this. I would have thought the pitch lowering would be much more common.

I play at the top of my possible pitch center. That said, I often have issues with trombones being built flat for my technique. Natural breathing ?  Most of the great pedagogues talk about a natural breath. Vowel sounds/mouth shape ? In the upper register I go for more eee in mouth shape.... that would be low register on the trumpet, so perhaps it is not so strange.
So, we do what works, and avoid what doesn't..... but if we go wrong with a decision, we need people like this who think about process. Not saying I am 100% sold on what he says, but look beyond the hype and there is good stuff.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:11 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Feb 01, 2017, 07:46PM Who was it - Jack Benny? Did he ever actually play the violin on his show?

...Geezer


Trivia detour:  Indeed he did play it occasionally on the air.  This is the most elaborate piece I have heard on any of his broadcasts and happened after a 10 year-old violinist performed on his rival Fred Allen's show. Allen joked that the boy "already plays better than Jack Benny."

On his next show Benny declared he would perform the same piece the next week.  However, "next week" kept getting pushed back as a story line developed where Benny's violin was variously out for repair, lost, stolen, held for ransom...

Ultimately he did play it:

JACK BENNY PLAYS - THE BEE 1937 BROADCAST

Extra trivia: the "Franz Schubert" of "the Bee" is a different Franz Schubert from the one we typically think of.

 
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Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:09 am

One set of metaphors for another?
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:28 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Feb 02, 2017, 07:11AM
Trivia detour:  Indeed he did play it occasionally on the air.  This is the most elaborate piece I have heard on any of his broadcasts and happened after a 10 year-old violinist performed on his rival Fred Allen's show. Allen joked that the boy "already plays better than Jack Benny."

On his next show Benny declared he would perform the same piece the next week.  However, "next week" kept getting pushed back as a story line developed where Benny's violin was variously out for repair, lost, stolen, held for ransom...

Ultimately he did play it:

JACK BENNY PLAYS - THE BEE 1937 BROADCAST

Extra trivia: the "Franz Schubert" of "the Bee" is a different Franz Schubert from the one we typically think of.
 

Pity the poor fools who don't know Jack!

Along this tangent, Larry Fine of The Three Stooges also played the violin. He was classically trained and turned to comedy one night when he broke his G-string. Badda-Bing!

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_anonymous » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:38 am

There are definitely some interesting bits in there, some of it being new ways of explaining the same old thing, and some of it I find slightly more unconventional. His techniques have obviously resonated with many of his students ands that's fantastic. However, as somebody else has already said, we all probably know stunning players who 'breath low', and to say that this is actually detrimental to your playing is simply not true.  Surely the point of the whole thing is that there are no two players who play the same, and as such there isn't a 'one size fits all' method of teaching? All the top teachers make valid points but in my opinion, in the end, it comes down to this:

Find what works for you
Then practise really hard so it keeps getting better!

As long as it sounds and feels good, it doesn't really matter what your method is. That's just my opinion though!


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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:47 am

Quote from: RBWatkin on Feb 02, 2017, 11:38AMThere are definitely some interesting bits in there, some of it being new ways of explaining the same old thing, and some of it I find slightly more unconventional. His techniques have obviously resonated with many of his students ands that's fantastic. However, as somebody else has already said, we all probably know stunning players who 'breath low', and to say that this is actually detrimental to your playing is simply not true.  Surely the point of the whole thing is that there are no two players who play the same, and as such there isn't a 'one size fits all' method of teaching? All the top teachers make valid points but in my opinion, in the end, it comes down to this:

Find what works for you
Then practise really hard so it keeps getting better!

As long as it sounds and feels good, it doesn't really matter what your method is. That's just my opinion though!


I believe that being a student of his would involve buying into his philosophy of trumpet playing in a deeply committed way. He certainly is a charismatic guy and can sell his points quite well.

Identifying with any great instructor is a matter of faith and buying into his methods. Most students would probably progress well under any system, so long as they believed in it and practiced hard at it's tenets.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_anonymous » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:30 pm

Did you watch to the end? Amazing last statement...
I enjoyed him, interesting ideas, some challenging of received brass wisdom. Other time just good common sense. Thanks for the link.

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Post by ttf_RBWatkin » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:45 pm

I believe that being a student of his would involve buying into his philosophy of trumpet playing in a deeply committed way. He certainly is a charismatic guy and can sell his points quite well.

Identifying with any great instructor is a matter of faith and buying into his methods. Most students would probably progress well under any system, so long as they believed in it and practiced hard at it's tenets.

...Geezert

I think it's more the instructors role to identify with the student.  Most students might progress well under one system, but not all. I believe very best teachers are people who can recognise the individuality in the playing of others.  Just my views, and I'm happy to concede they may not be correct!

He's obviously a real character who's had great success with his ideas so it all has great value.

All the best,

Rich.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:12 pm

Quote from: Tim Dowling on Feb 02, 2017, 12:30PMDid you watch to the end? Amazing last statement...
I enjoyed him, interesting ideas, some challenging of received brass wisdom. Other time just good common sense. Thanks for the link.


Yes I did; some opera reference in answer to a question. I didn't get the reference, but no matter. Was that important?

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_blast » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:24 pm

Quote from: RBWatkin on Feb 02, 2017, 12:45PMI believe that being a student of his would involve buying into his philosophy of trumpet playing in a deeply committed way. He certainly is a charismatic guy and can sell his points quite well.

Identifying with any great instructor is a matter of faith and buying into his methods. Most students would probably progress well under any system, so long as they believed in it and practiced hard at it's tenets.

...Geezert

I think it's more the instructors role to identify with the student.  Most students might progress well under one system, but not all. I believe very best teachers are people who can recognise the individuality in the playing of others.  Just my views, and I'm happy to concede they may not be correct!

He's obviously a real character who's had great success with his ideas so it all has great value.

All the best,

Rich.

Hey Rich, nice to see you posting in this lion's den !!  Image Image

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_RBWatkin » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:59 am

I couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.
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Post by ttf_blast » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:57 am

Quote from: RBWatkin on Feb 03, 2017, 01:59AMI couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.

Now you have exposed my weakness... I can talk trombones all day ( you know that) but the technical stuff....  Image Image

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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:40 am

Quote from: RBWatkin on Feb 03, 2017, 01:59AMI couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.

If you look at the post you want to quote, you will see a button on the top right called "Quote".  Press that and a response block will open with the post at the top enclosed in a pair of tags "quote" and "/quote" in square braces.  You can type what you want below the quote (or above it if you go to the left of the first square brace).  Be careful not to mess with the tags, or the quote won't work properly (I can't even count the number of times I've fixed quotes).

If you already have the response block open and you just want to quote something, pressing the 2nd button from the right (looks like a  cartoon dialog balloon) will place a pair of quote tags and you just paste in what you want to quote (or type it if you have to).  Hope this helps.

Now I wish I could play bass trombone as well as Chris, but that's another matter entirely... Image
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Post by ttf_musicofnote » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:38 am

Thanks for the link - awesome ideas. They go against almost everything I "learned" as a trumpet player, most of which I discarded learning trombone 25 years ago. And from that standpoint, the thread title "Heresey! Pure Heresey! is spot on and much of it stuff I'd worked out. Sound, sound, sound. Thanks agin!
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:05 pm

I have been thinking about this idea of playing at "the top of your pitch center". The more I think about how the "taper" was described in the video the less i think i understand.

If I think about it, I can make sense from playing low on the pitch center because to do that it implies you should relax into the sound and blow freely with minimal tension. I dont understand the benefit to playing high on the pitch center because it would surely be the opposite of what i just described? If I try to play high on the pitch center it is a lot of work, and as we heard in the video, really the more you try to manipulate your playing, the more you are just fighting yourself. For me it creates a much thinner sound with less resonance.

I liked some of the descriptions mentioned about playing high on the pitch center, I think "floating" was the word used specifically but in reality I dont see that happening. Can anyone who plays high on the pitch center elaborate? And is there anyone who understood the idea of the "taper" a bit better than me? I cannot for the life of me figure out how if you relaxed into a note and just "let go" the pitch would find the sweet spot by going higher.
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:22 pm

BBB,

To me vibrant sound is a better represantation of that. Think Maurice Murphy, Allen Vizzutti, Fred Mills, Doc Severinsen in the trumpet world. Often "sitting on the pitch" results in playing low on the pitch, which makes it dark, but also often liveless.

Besides, if anything better be sharp. Aurally being slightly sharp is less audible than slightly flat.

Play there, where it sound best, or on the sweet spot, as some other brass players like to say. Even if this is not exactly where the pitch should be, on trobmone is easy - just move to slide accordingly. On valve instruments is a little more delicate.
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:20 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 03, 2017, 03:22PMBBB,

To me vibrant sound is a better represantation of that. Think Maurice Murphy, Allen Vizzutti, Fred Mills, Doc Severinsen in the trumpet world. Often "sitting on the pitch" results in playing low on the pitch, which makes it dark, but also often liveless.

Besides, if anything better be sharp. Aurally being slightly sharp is less audible than slightly flat.

Play there, where it sound best, or on the sweet spot, as some other brass players like to say. Even if this is not exactly where the pitch should be, on trobmone is easy - just move to slide accordingly. On valve instruments is a little more delicate.


Yeah by the sounds of it, It sounds like it could be one of those areas where trumpet just does it differently.... i dunno.
Just to be clear(er)  Image Im not talking about playing in a pitch center where the pitch is aurally noticeably out of tune, I do know that it is supposedly harder to hear a note as out of tune if its slightly high. I guess i mean that i just dont see how you could possible find that "sweet spot" by using a concept of playing high on the pitch. Im still waiting for responses on this, but i am skeptical that there are any players here who when they "let go" and relax the tone to find the sweet spot their pitch goes up.

Im not sure that sitting low on the pitch makes it sound lifeless if that is where you are most relaxed and that is where you find the sweet spot. The more relaxed you are, the more resonant the sound is going to be surely? (Of course to a point, im not talking about extremes!) And by relaxing or letting go, whatever you want to call it I dont understand how that would taper the pitch up.
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Post by ttf_hyperbolica » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:06 pm

There was a discussion some months back involving a professional female trombonist who talked about playing high on the pitch.  There were some other examples cited of other pros saying something similar. Not sure if this was all in the jazz/pop vein or if it carried over to classical styles.

I personally don't have a real opinion because id need a  better sense of Intonation to distinguish the fine hairs they must be talking about.
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Post by ttf_RBWatkin » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:46 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 03, 2017, 03:40AMIf you look at the post you want to quote, you will see a button on the top right called "Quote".  Press that and a response block will open with the post at the top enclosed in a pair of tags "quote" and "/quote" in square braces.  You can type what you want below the quote (or above it if you go to the left of the first square brace).  Be careful not to mess with the tags, or the quote won't work properly (I can't even count the number of times I've fixed quotes).

If you already have the response block open and you just want to quote something, pressing the 2nd button from the right (looks like a  cartoon dialog balloon) will place a pair of quote tags and you just paste in what you want to quote (or type it if you have to).  Hope this helps.

Now I wish I could play bass trombone as well as Chris, but that's another matter entirely... Image

Ahhhh, thanks very much. I was trying to do it on my phone where the quote option doesn't exist. 
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:01 am

Basically this is about semantics, but also about the role of every instrument in an orchestra.

A trumpet is supposed to be bright and brilliant compared to any other brass instrument.

A french horn is supposed to be mellow...and so on. Of course, there are nuances...where trumpet is supposed sound a bit darker, but never like a trombone. If a trombone starts to sound like a trumpet, that would be plain wrong  Image
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Post by ttf_blast » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:52 am

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 04, 2017, 01:01AMBasically this is about semantics, but also about the role of every instrument in an orchestra.

A trumpet is supposed to be bright and brilliant compared to any other brass instrument.

A french horn is supposed to be mellow...and so on. Of course, there are nuances...where trumpet is supposed sound a bit darker, but never like a trombone. If a trombone starts to sound like a trumpet, that would be plain wrong  Image

If you record a trombone and wind it up to double speed it sounds just like a trumpet... except the articulations are odd sounding. Good sounds are interesting... far too many uninteresting trombone sounds around these days.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_blast » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:04 am

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 03, 2017, 05:20PM
Yeah by the sounds of it, It sounds like it could be one of those areas where trumpet just does it differently.... i dunno.
Just to be clear(er)  Image Im not talking about playing in a pitch center where the pitch is aurally noticeably out of tune, I do know that it is supposedly harder to hear a note as out of tune if its slightly high. I guess i mean that i just dont see how you could possible find that "sweet spot" by using a concept of playing high on the pitch. Im still waiting for responses on this, but i am skeptical that there are any players here who when they "let go" and relax the tone to find the sweet spot their pitch goes up.

Im not sure that sitting low on the pitch makes it sound lifeless if that is where you are most relaxed and that is where you find the sweet spot. The more relaxed you are, the more resonant the sound is going to be surely? (Of course to a point, im not talking about extremes!) And by relaxing or letting go, whatever you want to call it I dont understand how that would taper the pitch up.

Harold Nash was principal trombone at Covent Garden and professor of trombone at the Royal Academy of Music. He used to make new pupils pull their tuning slides out at least an inch and lip the note back up to tune. It sounds odd, but his students included some of the finest players ever to work in the UK.... people like Lance Green and Bob Hughes.... Bob is still the gold standard in bass trombone sound here in the UK.... it's not about tension... it was Harold's way of making a student aware of an ability to manipulate pitch, and with it, focus sound. I don't know if he did that with all students. If you get it, you get an alive sound that projects like crazy. If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:24 am

Chris, even if you play a soprano trombone and do it right, it won't sound exactly like a trumpet. Sort of like the piccolo trumpet sounds compared to a normal B flat trumpet. It still sound a like trombone to me, just a piccolo trombone alike)

There is always exceptions...for example Wycliffe playing the trumpet on his crossover mouthpiece - it sounds like a trumpet, but it has something of that soprano trombone sound as well. But still sounds amazing. I've been there, where everyone wanted to sound dark, including me. Then a discovered Fred Mills, Vizzuti and Doc. And life forced me out of the symphonic world. So I went the vibrant, top of the pitch kind of conception...Which didn't only change how I sound, but made me gain some range in both extremities.
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:30 am

Quote from: blast on Feb 04, 2017, 02:04AMHarold Nash was principal trombone at Covent Garden and professor of trombone at the Royal Academy of Music. He used to make new pupils pull their tuning slides out at least an inch and lip the note back up to tune. It sounds odd, but his students included some of the finest players ever to work in the UK.... people like Lance Green and Bob Hughes.... Bob is still the gold standard in bass trombone sound here in the UK.... it's not about tension... it was Harold's way of making a student aware of an ability to manipulate pitch, and with it, focus sound. I don't know if he did that with all students. If you get it, you get an alive sound that projects like crazy. If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people.

Chris Stearn


Was that an exercise specifically for pitch awareness or was it actually to develop sound? I suppose from the sounds of it, it works, I have just never personally come across a teacher giving that advice. I have heard and seen well known performers and teachers create intonation exercises by having students play with an unusually placed tuning slide, but not for the purpose of developing sound.

"If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people." Im not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about amateur players or professionals? I know for a fact there are plenty of pros who would teach almost the opposite who have alive sounds which also project like crazy. I have been incredibly fortunate to have many lessons with Michael Mulcahy who I have heard mention its a good thing to sit at the bottom of your sound. He has one of the most exciting sounds ive ever heard and definitely has no problem with projection.

I suppose in the end the result is the same, its just different concepts on how to get there. Could you explain what you believe the negatives would be from using the concept of playing low in the pitch center? Perhaps that will help me understand a bit better.
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:02 am

If you get a really vibrant sound with good intonation, nobody will ever question what you think while doing it. Evenmore, if you can keep a relaxed mind and body while doing it, you'll be the happiest player around. That's all that matters. E everything else is just semantics.
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:12 am

Is playing high on the pitch about aiming to create more brilliance (while standing in tune), if so, is this flying in the face of playing large bore horns with copper rich bells, and large deep mouthpieces?
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Post by ttf_blast » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:18 am

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 04, 2017, 02:24AMChris, even if you play a soprano trombone and do it right, it won't sound exactly like a trumpet. Sort of like the piccolo trumpet sounds compared to a normal B flat trumpet. It still sound a like trombone to me, just a piccolo trombone alike)

There is always exceptions...for example Wycliffe playing the trumpet on his crossover mouthpiece - it sounds like a trumpet, but it has something of that soprano trombone sound as well. But still sounds amazing. I've been there, where everyone wanted to sound dark, including me. Then a discovered Fred Mills, Vizzuti and Doc. And life forced me out of the symphonic world. So I went the vibrant, top of the pitch kind of conception...Which didn't only change how I sound, but made me gain some range in both extremities.

Sorry not to be clear... I did this in a studio years ago.... sounded like a trumpet... exactly like a trumpet. I was surprised at the time myself.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_blast » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:27 am

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 04, 2017, 02:30AM
Was that an exercise specifically for pitch awareness or was it actually to develop sound? I suppose from the sounds of it, it works, I have just never personally come across a teacher giving that advice. I have heard and seen well known performers and teachers create intonation exercises by having students play with an unusually placed tuning slide, but not for the purpose of developing sound.

"If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people." Im not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about amateur players or professionals? I know for a fact there are plenty of pros who would teach almost the opposite who have alive sounds which also project like crazy. I have been incredibly fortunate to have many lessons with Michael Mulcahy who I have heard mention its a good thing to sit at the bottom of your sound. He has one of the most exciting sounds ive ever heard and definitely has no problem with projection.

I suppose in the end the result is the same, its just different concepts on how to get there. Could you explain what you believe the negatives would be from using the concept of playing low in the pitch center? Perhaps that will help me understand a bit better.

Okay... it's ALL semantics.... EVERYTHING said about playing.

Only playing and listening to playing is a direct and reliable source of knowledge.

High ... Low... in the end it is all meaningless. Perhaps fewer get the high conversation and more get the low conversation.

It's the same with the description of every aspect of technique.

When I was 12 or 13 an old guy spent an hour playing me stuff and telling me why it was important. That was the only lesson I really needed. After that I needed to study music.... that is the lifetime pursuit.

I wish I could pass that hour of playing on as he did.

Chris Stearn
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:35 am

Let me interject right here that I think you guys are getting why I thought his musings were very controversial and even flew in the face of pedagogy. When I listened to his interview, I thought I was being stood on my head and that everything I have here-to-fore learned was completely bass-ackwards.

Thanks to many on this discussion thread, I don't feel that way anymore. It's all dif'rent strokes - as long as the outcome is top notch.

I still believe that to follow him faithfully would be like becoming a member of a certain sect. I'm not stating that's necessarily bad if the results are great. I was going to use the term "cult", but thought that might have negative connotations and didn't feel that he deserved it.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:59 am

I got it from thr first take, Chris. Some say that the trombone is just a big trumpet with a slide Image
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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:39 am

Quote from: blast on Feb 04, 2017, 02:04AMHarold Nash was principal trombone at Covent Garden and professor of trombone at the Royal Academy of Music. He used to make new pupils pull their tuning slides out at least an inch and lip the note back up to tune. Chris Stearn

I would try that but I don't have a clue how to keep my slide hand from putting the note in tune.  I don't end up moving my tuning slide much, er, ever.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:47 am

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 04, 2017, 04:59AMI got it from thr first take, Chris. Some say that the trombone is just a big trumpet with a slide Image

...said no trombone player - ever! lol

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_bonenick » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:52 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Feb 13, 2017, 11:47AM...said no trombone player - ever! lol

...Geezer

That is as compared to more conical tubing instruments such as the cornet, the flugelhorn, the french horn and probably the tuba.
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:03 pm

I've been trying the breathing which I understand, but it's this "top of the note" that still baffles me. Any new input or thoughts on this?
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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:09 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Feb 13, 2017, 01:03PMI've been trying the breathing which I understand, but it's this "top of the note" that still baffles me. Any new input or thoughts on this?

Here is my opinion, take it for what you paid for it.

For any given length of trombone tubing, there is a frequency that has maximum response.  It's not a super sharp cutoff; on either side of the center resonance point there is an area high or low that also gets response.  As you get further away from center your response starts to drop off fairly sharply.  In some ranges and for some horn/mouthpiece/leadpipe combinations that distance is larger. 

So you can input your lip buzz exactly on that center point, or you can play habitually a little bit above or below.  You can't play a huge amount above or below or you'll chip every note, but you can learn to play a little bit above or below.

Why does that make a difference?  Because the fundamental frequency you are inputting is not the whole story.  There is a series of overtones present in your input and they are all mathematically related (oversimplification).  Your horn has a series of resonance points that roughly match some of those points, and they are NOT mathematically related.  So, playing above or below pitch center can excite different overtones and change your timbre. 

I don't think you deliberately play above or below while performing, I think you have a timbre in your head and you try to match it.  But probably experimenting with deliberately lipping up or down lets you experience different timbres and choose what you want.

Like I said, just my opinion.   Image
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:29 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 14, 2017, 05:09AM 
I don't think you deliberately play above or below while performing, I think you have a timbre in your head and you try to match it.  But probably experimenting with deliberately lipping up or down lets you experience different timbres and choose what you want.


This would be my best guess as well. It is a little strange to me that an accomplished player could play any other way though.
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:29 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 14, 2017, 05:09AM 
I don't think you deliberately play above or below while performing, I think you have a timbre in your head and you try to match it.  But probably experimenting with deliberately lipping up or down lets you experience different timbres and choose what you want.


This would be my best guess as well. It is a little strange to me that an accomplished player could play any other way though.
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