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ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

So I'm doing a solo for my school, (well not for it but it's a festival)

The piece I'm doing is "the Acrobat" by J.A. greenwood.

There's a part written in bass clef and one in treble clef.  I want to read the treble clef part

Then first note in bass clef is an A3, but on the treble clef part it's a B4 so how does the transposing work and what would I need to play to successfully utilize the treble clef part?

Also I'm aware that bass clef is concert pitch and treble clef isn't and treble clef instruments are a non transposing instrument. Etc etc


ttf_timothy42b
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Check the key signatures on both parts.

If they are the same, they are both in concert pitch.

If the treble clef has two less flats or two more sharps, it is Bb treble.  Add two flats and read as tenor clef, or lower everything by a ninth, or just know that 3rd space C is really tuning note Bb and work from there. 
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Is the treble clef part for a Bb trumpet or Euphonium?  If so, it's transposed treble.  You can read it as tenor clef adding 2 flats to the key signature (and remember that some naturals are flats and some sharps are naturals.  In this case Image Image is  Image Image (or  Image Image ).

Are you normally a Brass Bander?  Is your normal part in Transposed Treble?  Remember that the transposed treble part is written a 9th above the bass clef part.  So B4 on the treble clef part IS A3 in bass clef.
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

I bet 99% that the parts are the same. If you play the bass clef part, you are also playing the treble clef part.

What instrument does the treble part say and what instrument is the bass clef part for?
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Post by ttf_xspartacusx »

The bass clef part is in the key of G at the beginning. And the treble clef is in G at the beginning (1 flat and one sharp respectively)

I think it's transposed treble clef.  I have never played in a brass band but I do know about how they read the music.  Both parts say trombone solo on the top.
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

 Image

If you realize they are the same, why does it matter which part is on your stand? The notes are exactly the same.
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Quote from: xspartacusx on Mar 17, 2017, 10:02AMThe bass clef part is in the key of G at the beginning. And the treble clef is in G at the beginning (1 flat and one sharp respectively)

I think it's transposed treble clef.  I have never played in a brass band but I do know about how they read the music.  Both parts say trombone solo on the top.

You mean the bass clef part is in F (1 flat), right?

They are the same part and you can play either one, but if you are playing with accompaniment, make sure you are playing the correct notes.  The treble clef part is transposed and written a 9th higher.
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Post by ttf_xspartacusx »

My question was just what are the transposing rules for playing a trombone in treble clef.  Assuming I wasn't given a bass clef Variant, how would I transpose the treble clef part to be played correctly
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

I think I found what he's playing.  The parts are for Trombone bass clef, the Posaune is treble clef, treble clef baritone and bass clef tenor tuba. 

Seems to me that the treble clef instruments will play in the key of G with the tenorhorn of tuba playing bass clef.  Is a tenorhorn of tuba a euphonium?

For the posaune playing you may just have to learn treble clef note placement.  Excuse me if I found the wrong music.
ttf_robcat2075
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Post by ttf_robcat2075 »

I'm confused.  Why do you want to play the treble clef part if you have a bass clef part and (it sounds as if) you already can play the bass clef fine? 

What am I missing? Image
ttf_Piano man
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: xspartacusx on Mar 17, 2017, 11:12AMMy question was just what are the transposing rules for playing a trombone in treble clef.  Assuming I wasn't given a bass clef Variant, how would I transpose the treble clef part to be played correctly

Down a major ninth.

I think what you're missing here is that you don't get an 'extra part' with treble clef baritone parts. They're just the same part written differently so it's easier for trumpet players to read them. You should just play the bass clef part.
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Sorry folks, this is nothing to do with trumpet players, or baritone players or anything else like that. It is simply that this old British trombone solo is supplied with 2 versions of the solo part; one in concert pitch bass clef(for the majority of trombone players throughout the world) and one in Bb transposing treble clef(for those trombone players who prefer to read this system which is still used in British Brass Bands)

The solo is an old trombone feature using lots of glissandi so it cannot be played on a trumpet, baritone or any other valved instrument!

They are both the same and if the OP is used to reading concert pitch, bass clef, then that is the part to play from and it will work with the piano accompaniment. If the OP was brought up playing Bb treble clef parts, use the other one.

Cheers

Stewbones
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

It's an old brass band piece; the two parts will sound exactly the same.
One is in transposed treble clef written for trombone in B flat
One is in bass clef concert pitch.
If you are not used to reading treble clef, really just ignore the part.  It is written a 9th higher than actual sounds. This is absolutely standard in a British-style brass band. As others have hinted, you can pretend its tenor clef and change the key signature, and the notes will be in the right places.


ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Quote from: uncle duke on Mar 17, 2017, 11:28AMI think I found what he's playing.  The parts are for Trombone bass clef, the Posaune is treble clef, treble clef baritone and bass clef tenor tuba. 

Seems to me that the treble clef instruments will play in the key of G with the tenorhorn of tuba playing bass clef.  Is a tenorhorn of tuba a euphonium?

For the posaune playing you may just have to learn treble clef note placement.  Excuse me if I found the wrong music.

Posaune playing is extremely different from Trombone playing, and definitely requires treble clef music. I see where the problem has stemmed from now.

Also, Stewbones, apology accepted since we established that a while back.
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 17, 2017, 11:34AMI'm confused.  Why do you want to play the treble clef part if you have a bass clef part and (it sounds as if) you already can play the bass clef fine? 

What am I missing? Image

Maybe he just wants to learn Bb treble.

I played euph in a band that carried two euph players.  I always preferred to have my own folder, and there was always a bass clef and a Bb treble folder. Whatever the other player preferred, I took the other one. 
ttf_timothy42b
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 17, 2017, 12:01PMPosaune playing is extremely different from Trombone playing, and definitely requires treble clef music.
Which one is Bayrische Polka in?  I've never seen the music; worked on it by ear a bit.  I'd be willing to bet the part says Posaune on it, dunno what clef though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUv76QcT_5c
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Mar 17, 2017, 11:59AMSorry folks, this is nothing to do with trumpet players, or baritone players or anything else like that. It is simply that this old British trombone solo is supplied with 2 versions of the solo part; one in concert pitch bass clef(for the majority of trombone players throughout the world) and one in Bb transposing treble clef(for those trombone players who prefer to read this system which is still used in British Brass Bands)
Stewbones

I appreciate the clarification, but the underlying purpose is still the same--to make it easier for band members to move between instruments without relearning notes. Hence my idea that treble clef baritone parts make it easier for band directors to move 'excess' trumpet players to low brass.

I'm not familiar with the British brass band system, but I do understand why it works. The purpose of transposed, treble clef trombone parts isn't quite as obvious, since it's a slide, but I know these bands use valve trombones, and a person switching to slide trombone would surely notice the similarity between slide positions and valve fingerings and want to read the same music.

I think the single thing that's most difficult for most students with respect to transposition is understanding exactly what it is and why we do it. Once you get past that, the mechanics aren't too hard.

I was self-taught in composition, so I just sort of figured out transposition on the fly. My work study job my sophomore year in college was tutoring music theory. I'd been transposing charts for years by then, but I spent some time thinking about the 'why', and the 'how to explain it' before I met with my first student on the subject.  I was successful in getting kids to pass the transposition chapter after the instructors had failed.
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

That was a joke about the posaune playing. Since the treble and bass clef parts sound exactly the same when read properly, I thought it would be fun to compare that with the comment about "posaune" being on one part and not the other, since a posaune also sounds exactly the same as a trombone, because it is a trombone.
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 17, 2017, 01:13PMThat was a joke about the posaune playing.
Going through a security checkpoint in Germany years ago, the guard wanted to see inside the trombone case.

I thought I'd lighten the mood with a little joke myself.  "Hab keine Angst.  Es ist nur Posaune - nicht Akkordeon." 

It didn't go over too well.  But that evening I had rehearsal with some guys from the local Musik Hochschule, and they thought it was hilarious. 
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 17, 2017, 01:13PMThat was a joke about the posaune playing. Since the treble and bass clef parts sound exactly the same when read properly, I thought it would be fun to compare that with the comment about "posaune" being on one part and not the other, since a posaune also sounds exactly the same as a trombone, because it is a trombone.

I got the joke. I was about to ask the difference and realized I was being obtuse.

The French use the term 'trombone'. But it means 'paper clip'. I'm not kidding.
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

The idea of these transposing parts goes back even further in the US.  In the mid 19th century, Saxhorn bands were the norm.  All of them pitched in Eb or Bb.  All (except maybe the tuba) with 3 valves.  So with a set of transposed parts you could easily shift bandsmen from part to part.  In the US Civil War, this could be a lifesaver since bandsmen got killed just like regular soldiers.
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Post by ttf_John Thomas »

Since it does not seem you asked your band director, here is what I would say if you were in my band (retired from 32 year career) and pretty close to what your band director would say.

"I don't care what part you want to play from, play the bass clef part when we practice and perform.  Learn the bass clef part when you practice and you can compare to the treble part when you practice to learn but play using the bass clef part so you don't make a mistake when you have a brain fart trying to read the treble clef in the middle of our performance."
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Post by ttf_growlerbox »

Quote from: BGuttman on Mar 17, 2017, 01:49PMIn the US Civil War, this could be a lifesaver since bandsmen got killed just like regular soldiers.

So, clearly not a lifesaver.
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Post by ttf_xspartacusx »

Stewbones got it correct.

Thank you guys for your responses it means a lot.

It's titled "the Acrobat" and it's a "famous" trombone solo written by J.A. GreenWood.  If you go on YouTube and search "the Acrobat trombone solo", the first video that should come up is played by Michael Louis for a performance in front of an audience. 

I actually started looking at the treble clef part and moved the notes down a major 2nd and then an octave lower. So I'm kinda figuring out the treble clef part just by looking at it (although I already have an idea of what the pitches are supposed to be).
Below is an image of my solo, or part of it.  This is reference for those.ofnyou that don't Know which song I'm talking about.
Image
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Quote from: xspartacusx on Mar 22, 2017, 08:39AM

I actually started looking at the treble clef part and moved the notes down a major 2nd and then an octave lower. So I'm kinda figuring out the treble clef part just by looking at it (although I already have an idea of what the pitches are supposed to be).

 Below is an image of the solo:

Image

The pitches should be exactly the same as that bass clef part you already have. You don't have to just have an idea, you can just know.

Also, is Stewbones only correct up until the part where he says "if he is more comfortable reading bass clef, he should just read that part" ? Or is that part correct too? I think it is....

 Image

It's kind of like having the lyrics to a song written out in english, and then having another part that is the same English lyrics written phonetically out in Cyrillic for non english speakers. If a Russian singer sings the Cyrillic part, it will sound exactly the same as the English part, but they might call the letters by different names.

If you can read English, why would you choose to read the phonetic part written in Cyrillic?

I don't understand the struggle
アイ ドーン アンダースタンド ザ ストラーガル
ttf_uncle duke
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Post by ttf_uncle duke »

Not that you need to xspartacusx but I'm not convinced that will be good enough for a 2nd trombone part.  Any chance of posting the 1st trombone part for comparison?
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: uncle duke on Mar 22, 2017, 09:26AMNot that you need to xspartacusx but I'm not convinced that will be good enough for a 2nd trombone part.  Any chance of posting the 1st trombone part for comparison?

For crying out loud, it's not a second trombone part. The one he posted is the solo, and the other one is THE SAME SOLO transposed up a 9th and written in treble clef for people who read trombone that way. That was resolved in the very first reply, by Timothy42B, and repeated in several subsequent posts.

I'm a bit baffled by this discussion. It's the equivalent of someone trying to decide whether to play the BC or TC baritone part. They're exactly the same.
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Hahahhaha!!!   Image Image Image

 Image Image Image Image
 Image Image Image Image

Don't worry about it ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ドンマイドンマイ

Contrast with~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

気にしないで

Is there a rosetta stone of BC / TC part
 translation, cuz we need it

DJ plz help us
health, health me
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Post by ttf_uncle duke »

I was under the assumption that he was using the original score to transpose the second part treble clef horn, which is called the posaune in the original transcription or what I assume to be the original transcription.  So maybe I jumped the gun a little......what else could he be transcribing/transposing from?     
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Quote from: uncle duke on Mar 22, 2017, 10:55AMI was under the assumption that he was using the original score to transpose the second part treble clef horn, which is called the posaune in the original transcription or what I assume to be the original transcription.  So maybe I jumped the gun a little......what else could he be transcribing/transposing from?     

So ... the set of parts comes with more than one solo part.

There is the Trombone Solo Bass Clef part.

There is the Trombone Solo Treble Clef part (ie, a trumpet solo part)

The OP wants to play the solo from the T.C. part. Possibly because he thinks it's a better part. Maybe he believes it is more difficult. Maybe he just wants practice reading a T.C. Bb part. Regardless of why he wants to use the T.C. part, the fact remains that it is THE SAME EXACT SOUNDING PART as the B.C. solopart.

Other facts include :

The OP "has a good idea of what the notes are supposed to be by transposing down a maj 2nd and then an octave"

The OP clearly has a bass clef part that already tells him EXACTLY what the notes are. Although it is possible that he believes that the bass clef part is a treble clef part -- he did post a picture of a bass clef part as an example of the treble clef solo he is playing.

Many people have come up with some absurd responses to the original question. Myself included. Myself especially.
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Piano man on Mar 17, 2017, 01:05PMI know these bands use valve trombones, and a person switching to slide trombone would surely notice the similarity between slide positions and valve fingerings and want to read the same music.

British brass bands use slide trombones. 1st and 2nd transposing  Image , Bass using concert pitch  Image
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Post by ttf_LowrBrass »

Quote from: xspartacusx on Mar 22, 2017, 08:39AM...I actually started looking at the treble clef part and moved the notes down a major 2nd and then an octave lower. So I'm kinda figuring out the treble clef part just by looking at it (although I already have an idea of what the pitches are supposed to be).
...


Treble clef part == bass clef part, right?

So I'm confused why you're still "kinda figuring out the treble clef part just by looking at it."

For fun...?
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 »

WHENEVER I talk about Bb treble with anyone who hasn't done much brass band playing they get proper confused.... I have no idea why! It is SO simple, really not an issue at all. As a trombone player you should know how to read tenor clef. It is EXACTLY the same, read it the same way but add 2 flats to the key signature. If the key signature has no flats in it, play Bb's and Eb's etc.....

I am sure you have it figured out by now, my rant is more an astonishment to why some people find Bb treble hard to understand. Playing in Eb treble is a liiittle more complicated, but you just read it as though you are playing in bass clef and add 3 flats.

I know someone who did have a proper issue with Bb treble. She learnt trumpet from a very young age and didn't realise until later in life that she had perfect pitch. So as a professional playing  adult, she has perfect pitch IN Bb so when she hears a Bb she calls it a C in her head. She says its not a massive problem, just annoying!  Image
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: eightyeightH on Apr 03, 2017, 09:00AMBritish brass bands use slide trombones. 1st and 2nd transposing  Image , Bass using concert pitch  Image

Of course you're right. When they don't have enough slide players, they use valve trombones, which surely exist for some reason other than Bob Brookmeyer.

Regardless of the details, transposition exists for no musical purpose rather than the mundane expediency of letting people switch instruments. Even when someone switches to slide (which has no 'fingerings' in common with valve instruments), he's bound to notice that the fingerings he learned on other instruments compare with the newly learned slide positions, and it will thus be easier to read the same clef and transposition he's used to.

That's why the bass trombone parts are in bass clef, untransposed--because they're unlikely to be read by trumpet players or other TC players.

In any case, the mystery of the 'posaune' part was solved early on in the thread--it's the same solo part written for British brass band players.
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Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 »

Quote from: Piano man on Apr 03, 2017, 09:55PMOf course you're right. When they don't have enough slide players, they use valve trombones, which surely exist for some reason other than Bob Brookmeyer.

Regardless of the details, transposition exists for no musical purpose rather than the mundane expediency of letting people switch instruments. Even when someone switches to slide (which has no 'fingerings' in common with valve instruments), he's bound to notice that the fingerings he learned on other instruments compare with the newly learned slide positions, and it will thus be easier to read the same clef and transposition he's used to.

That's why the bass trombone parts are in bass clef, untransposed--because they're unlikely to be read by trumpet players or other TC players.

In any case, the mystery of the 'posaune' part was solved early on in the thread--it's the same solo part written for British brass band players.

I could be wrong but I am reasonably sure that bass trom parts in brass band being in bass clef is due to older "bass" trombones being played on instruments pitched in "G" and trying to play that in a clef that is not in concert pitch adds unnecessary confusion.
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Post by ttf_Larry Preston Roberson »

Just to add to the confusion...

In the wild in you may also find trombone  Image in C (non transposing, well written an octave higher actually, but same pitch class) and trombone  Image in Bb (transposing). Johan de Meij's Symphony No. 1: The Lord of the Rings is one such piece. I played it in high school. It has all four variations ( Image in C & Bb &  Image in C & Bb) for trombone 1 and 2; I don't recall the 3rd/bass parts.
ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

Wow did this thread crack me up xD


Quote from: Piano man on Mar 17, 2017, 01:48PMThe French use the term 'trombone'. But it means 'paper clip'. I'm not kidding.

Actually it's the other way around - the instrument came first, then the paperclip was named after it

*rainbow*The More You Know*****
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Post by ttf_greenbean »

Quote from: growlerbox on Mar 17, 2017, 04:03PMSo, clearly not a lifesaver.

Unless you stop a bullet with your Saxhorn... 
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 03, 2017, 11:12PMActually it's the other way around - the instrument came first, then the paperclip was named after it

*rainbow*The More You Know*****

I figured as much, but it sort of surprises me that they'd notice the resemblance and use a word they don't even use for the actual instrument.

It would be like Americans calling a paper clip a 'posaune', because it looks like a trombone.
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Piano man on Apr 03, 2017, 11:51PMI figured as much, but it sort of surprises me that they'd notice the resemblance and use a word they don't even use for the actual instrument.

It would be like Americans calling a paper clip a 'posaune', because it looks like a trombone.

So what do the French call a trombone then?  I thought it was the same word.

Ronnie




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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Quote from: ronnies on Apr 04, 2017, 12:21AMSo what do the French call a trombone then?  I thought it was the same word.

Ronnie

They call it a 'paper clip.'

Just kidding. For some reason, I thought they used 'posaune', but I was wrong. Apparently there's more than one country in Europe. Who knew?
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

Quote from: Piano man on Apr 04, 2017, 12:27AMThey call it a 'paper clip.'

Just kidding. For some reason, I thought they used 'posaune', but I was wrong. Apparently there's more than one country in Europe. Who knew?

Well they did call it saqueboute... But i don't think they had paperclips back then Image
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

As this started off as a discussion about The Acrobat I wondered if people had seen this.  Great example of the brass community pulling together to help. I know all help would be appreciated.
http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=28547

ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

Ouch, poor slide
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

(But seriously, great initiative!)
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Piano man on Apr 03, 2017, 09:55PMOf course you're right. When they don't have enough slide players, they use valve trombones

Sorry I'm not a hardcore brass bander but I do play for one and in all my years I have never seen a valve trombone being used,not to say that some folk don't but I reckon it's rare.

I think the reason the tenors went to treble was to make it easier for people to change instruments without reading issues, the exception being the bass bone which was in G and too much trouble so stayed in bass. I have come across treble bass bone parts - mental with the ledger lines!

There seems to be a bit of a stooshie about Bb pitch treble for trombone. I played the acrobat many moons ago at school and read the bass side but as been mentioned already the treble side is exactly the same as it was written by a brass band oriented composer and is much loved over here.

I've got a few bass bone pieces where on the other side you get a treble clef saxhorn part which isn't in Bb. You can also buy a lot of the trombone concertos in both bass and treble over here for the brass band players, there's even a brass band degree course in Manchester.

If you think this is all confusing try this.... a lot of the band music I order for school band now come with "world parts" where you get Bb bass clef for trombone/euph/tuba plus a couple of other weird things which are for European bands.

Ross


ttf_Piano man
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Post by ttf_Piano man »

Thanks for the heads-up. Brass bands are definitely not my area of expertise. I wish I hadn't brought up valve trombones, but I had the impression that they were commonly used to fill in gaps in marching and brass bands that were short of trombonists. I stand corrected.

Your comment that the treble clef Bb trombone parts are to help people switch instruments with minimal reading issues was my point all along. It makes a little less sense with slide trombone than with a valve instrument, but even there, there's a natural correlation between valve fingerings and slide positions that most players will notice, so reading the same music is still an advantage. One of the things that makes transposition a mystery to some people is that the purpose of it can seem obscure.
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Quote from: Roscotrombone on Apr 09, 2017, 12:27PM...

If you think this is all confusing try this.... a lot of the band music I order for school band now come with "world parts" where you get Bb bass clef for trombone/euph/tuba plus a couple of other weird things which are for European bands.

Ross



I think those World parts are best used for fire starter.  I wound up with a transposed tuba part in Eb bass clef.  Couldn't get my head around the notes.  In this case,  Image Image would be played  Image b Image
ttf_Larry Preston Roberson
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Post by ttf_Larry Preston Roberson »

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 09, 2017, 04:08PMI think those World parts are best used for fire starter.  I wound up with a transposed tuba part in Eb bass clef.  Couldn't get my head around the notes.  In this case,  Image Image would be played  Image b Image

Speaking of world parts, the university's Wind Ensemble is playing Alfred Reed's "Armenian Dances". The 3rd trombone Bass clef (in C) is missing. So, my choice was between Image (in Bb) or  Image (in Bb). I can play euphonium or trombone in  Image (Bb or C), but I just couldn't get my head around transposing  Image!
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Actually, learning bass clef transposed to Bb is useful if you are ever called upon to play the tenor tuba parts in some Richard Strauss tone poems.

But as I said, the other ones are (for me) totally useless and confusing to most players as well.
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