Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

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Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:34 pm

This is directly in relation to the the "Pronouns" thread that got locked. I learned quite a lot in that thread, and other than certain people using the "F" word (which is crazy, I haven't seen that on this forum and didn't think it was allowed), I felt that the discourse was civil. I didn't really see it get to the point where people were being crass. The discourse was continuing just fine.

Why was it locked? I think there was more that could have been discussed, and possibly some more opinions might have been changed.

I am all for locking threads that devolve into gross and pointless dialogue, and again, aside from the "F" word being used, I didn't see it in that thread -- it was civil.

I learned a lot about an issue I had no idea about, and was starting to see why using different pronouns at another person's request is a nice and kind thing to do for them. I don't think it's cool to lock up a thread just because not everyone agrees with one another.

If it's because it wasn't related to the trombone and got too far off topic, then it shouldn't have been broken off into it's own topic in the first place.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Doubler » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:49 pm

It was in "Tangents" after all....
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:58 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:34 pm
This is directly in relation to the the "Pronouns" thread that got locked. I learned quite a lot in that thread, and other than certain people using the "F" word (which is crazy, I haven't seen that on this forum and didn't think it was allowed), I felt that the discourse was civil. I didn't really see it get to the point where people were being crass. The discourse was continuing just fine.

Why was it locked? I think there was more that could have been discussed, and possibly some more opinions might have been changed.

I am all for locking threads that devolve into gross and pointless dialogue, and again, aside from the "F" word being used, I didn't see it in that thread -- it was civil.

I learned a lot about an issue I had no idea about, and was starting to see why using different pronouns at another person's request is a nice and kind thing to do for them. I don't think it's cool to lock up a thread just because not everyone agrees with one another.

If it's because it wasn't related to the trombone and got too far off topic, then it shouldn't have been broken off into it's own topic in the first place.
I don't necessarily disagree with you in that I think threads tend to get locked early here, and this was an educative thread for sure, but to be fair it did go beyond people not agreeing. Someone revived the thread [correction, it was the second post of the revived thread. still.] just to be dismissive without really engaging in good faith conversation, and then when they did post something more than just a cheap attempt at dismissive humour, called non-cis people deviants who need counseling to correct their behaviour and attemps at treating them with respect nothing more than enabling their "fantasy". I don't care that it was said without swear words, I certainly wouldn't qualify calling your interlocutor a deviant as "civil".
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:00 am

LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:58 am
harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:34 pm
This is directly in relation to the the "Pronouns" thread that got locked. I learned quite a lot in that thread, and other than certain people using the "F" word (which is crazy, I haven't seen that on this forum and didn't think it was allowed), I felt that the discourse was civil. I didn't really see it get to the point where people were being crass. The discourse was continuing just fine.

Why was it locked? I think there was more that could have been discussed, and possibly some more opinions might have been changed.

I am all for locking threads that devolve into gross and pointless dialogue, and again, aside from the "F" word being used, I didn't see it in that thread -- it was civil.

I learned a lot about an issue I had no idea about, and was starting to see why using different pronouns at another person's request is a nice and kind thing to do for them. I don't think it's cool to lock up a thread just because not everyone agrees with one another.

If it's because it wasn't related to the trombone and got too far off topic, then it shouldn't have been broken off into it's own topic in the first place.
I don't necessarily disagree with you in that I think threads tend to get locked early here, and this was an educative thread for sure, but to be fair it did go beyond people not agreeing. Someone revived the thread just to be dismissive without really engaging in good faith conversation, and then when they did post something more than just a cheap attempt at dismissive humour, called non-cis people deviants who need counseling to correct their behaviour and attemps at treating them with respect nothing more than enabling their "fantasy". I don't care that it was said without swear words, I certainly wouldn't qualify calling your interlocutor a deviant as "civil".
Going back through, there was some bad language on both sides. Maybe it did devolve.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Matt K » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 am

I would say that we, and perhaps certainly I, do have a tendency to lock things before other people would prefer. There were calls, public and private, to close it - and felt that the thread was no longer serving the interests of those it was nominally intending to serve. Particularly since the person who spawned he discussion seems to have never logged in again. But yes, I think that it got to the point where further discussion certainly could have been more contentious. I'm not personally exposed to further discussion of the subject, but a regrouping might be in order. I think the key distinction for me is the lack of politics in particular and how it was primarily about contemporary culture and use of language. I know there was in particular a criticism that non-binary people were being treated as academic subjects and that's hard to delineate because as far as I could tell, the "academic" portions of the thread more more centered around language and not the people, so it's obviously a very touchy subject. At the end of the day, this site is for talking about trombones, it's perhaps the only thing that unites all of us in some capacity here! Its a matter of balancing being an inclusive place for all trombonists vs. keeping topics alive that are not totally related to trombones can be difficult because they are, at least in my opinion, useful and beneficial topics to discuss.

I do agree with your final statement though, Harrison, that it did cross lines at time that I would say devolved more than I was comfortable with.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Doubler » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:46 am

Just for the record, I made no mention of "correcting" behavior. In a society where a small number of people find themselves in a situation that deviates (deviant behavior) from the experience of most people and which is in conflict with their biology and social norms, counseling by informed, caring people with the purpose of helping them cope with this disparity seems appropriate. Insisting that the majority of people agree with the concept of a male actually being a female (and vice versa) and being treated as such does not. A member of one sex behaving as a member of the opposite sex is still a member of one sex behaving as a member of the opposite sex and not a true sex change, no matter what medical treatments are involved, for the technical reasons I mentioned in the locked thread. To believe something biologically and medically impossible is fantasy. It's the choice of those who are comfortable with their biological sex to accept, tolerate, ignore, or reject those who are not, and it's also the choice of those who are uncomfortable with their sex to do the same towards the majority.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:51 am

just cause of this last comment it's probably time to lock this thread too. no point in letting the same thing happen, and no point in letting hate speech stand.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Kdanielsen » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:30 am

I agree. this discussion is enabling hate speech. People like an audience. Shut it down.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:41 am

agreed, unfortunately.

I, along with a few other people, requested it be shut down because, unlike the really great conversation with you and a few other people where there was genuine space for understanding, the new iteration was pretty rapidly getting into some pretty solid dog whistle transphobic talking points based in pretty dodgy understanding of the scientific and societal delineations of gender and sex. It didn't feel like a space where positive discussion was going to happen so it made sense to request it be locked. The same person jumping on here with similar things is unfortunately further evidence that it was probably the right call.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by timothy42b » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:38 pm

Kdanielsen wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:30 am
I agree. this discussion is enabling hate speech. People like an audience. Shut it down.
Unfortunately we're now in the situation of letting one person shut down any thread they want, just by posting something deliberately objectionable.

Perhaps a locked thread should also generate a ban on the member causing it, or at least a warning.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by BGuttman » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:02 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:38 pm
Kdanielsen wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:30 am
I agree. this discussion is enabling hate speech. People like an audience. Shut it down.
Unfortunately we're now in the situation of letting one person shut down any thread they want, just by posting something deliberately objectionable.

Perhaps a locked thread should also generate a ban on the member causing it, or at least a warning.
If there is a rational reason for a warning it's often given when a thread is locked. Especially when there is a single identifiable person acting as a troll. People who get a reputation of a troll will sometimes get banishment -- either short term or long term.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:39 pm

biological essentialism is at the least hate-speech adjacent to many people. there is a veneer of science, sure, but like many past such views (eugencism, phrenology, etc.) it can be quite harmful and exclusionary.

also locking a thread to just let it re-open in a new thread like nothing happened feels like a bad precedent. i will not be participating in this thread anymore, and if this stands, and keeps happening, i will respectfully leave this forum.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by BGuttman » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:08 pm

Bill:

Sometimes when a thread gets heated or confrontational we may lock it down for a couple of days to let things cool down. After the "timeout" we reopen the thread. In many cases the confrontational arguments are let go and proper discussion resumes. If the confrontational argument resumes we will close the thread permanently.

I would hate to close a thread where legitimate differences are being discussed. Even if the consensus opinion is not mine. Look at the Slide-O-Mix vs, Trombotine threads in the past. Each has avid supporters and equally avid detractors.

If you feel that a thread has gone "off the rails" and nobody is dealing with it, let us know and stop reading the thread. I for one value your contribution to the Chat.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:25 pm

this is not a conversation about slide lubrication. this is about disenfranchising a group of people. this conversation was already locked, and someone decided to re-open it. i feel that the thread is off the rails, as do others.

my name is also not Bill.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by timothy42b » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:45 pm

WilliamLang wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:25 pm
this is not a conversation about slide lubrication. this is about disenfranchising a group of people.
I am, well, not exactly offended, but certainly irritated at that comment.

I contributed to that thread and this one, so you have included me as one of the disenfranchisers. I don't believe that I am.

I am on the side of inclusiveness, and yet I sometimes see nuances and may disagree slightly with some portions of the party line of those on the "righteous" side.

That's not unique to this discussion. I, and to a large extent anyone who perceives shades of gray, routinely find ourselves canceled over exactly that.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:58 pm

I am specifically talking about Doubler, earlier on this thread, not you. If you find yourself routinely cancelled, or called out, I'm sorry but that's not on me.

I still do not think that conversations about slide lubrication and conversations over gender identity should be conflated.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:07 pm

Are we really going to compare the hateful posts in question to an avid supporter's opinion on Trombotine? Really? Jeeeez...

I would like to know, if locked threads sometimes generate warnings or bans, was there a warning issued in this case? If not, what does it take for a warning to be issued? What more is required for there to be "a rational reason"? I've had posts censored on this forum because of using "BS" spelled out (not even in the context of a debate or heated discussion). Is hate speech allowed here, just as long as the post doesn't include expletives?
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:36 pm

LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Are we really going to compare the hateful posts in question to an avid supporter's opinion on Trombotine? Really? Jeeeez...

I would like to know, if locked threads sometimes generate warnings or bans, was there a warning issued in this case? If not, what does it take for a warning to be issued? What more is required for there to be "a rational reason"? I've had posts censored on this forum because of using "BS" spelled out (not even in the context of a debate or heated discussion). Is hate speech allowed here, just as long as the post doesn't include expletives?
the comparison of these issues to slide lubricant discussions....tracks. . . I'll avoid the paragraph long response I want to write.

Question that I genuinely don't mean to be inflammatory or an attack. In situations like the other thread where one of the parties involved in the discussion is a moderator, and especially when that moderator is essentially involved in the dispute part, is there a setup in place to make sure that that moderator isn't the one who is then moderating the discussion? ie would said person recuse themselves? I dont mean to imply that Bruce ever brought that up or did that, and want to be super clear on that, but I ask because that was a big issue on the pedagogy forum a while back where a contentious discussion got going and a moderator started moderating in support of their own side. It seems like there is, but just wanted to ask/seems like an important thing.

I also agree that I'm curious about what the line is between moderating hate speech and moderating profanity...
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by BGuttman » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:44 pm

mbarbier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:36 pm
LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Are we really going to compare the hateful posts in question to an avid supporter's opinion on Trombotine? Really? Jeeeez...

I would like to know, if locked threads sometimes generate warnings or bans, was there a warning issued in this case? If not, what does it take for a warning to be issued? What more is required for there to be "a rational reason"? I've had posts censored on this forum because of using "BS" spelled out (not even in the context of a debate or heated discussion). Is hate speech allowed here, just as long as the post doesn't include expletives?
the comparison of these issues to slide lubricant discussions....tracks. . . I'll avoid the paragraph long response I want to write.

Question that I genuinely don't mean to be inflammatory or an attack. In situations like the other thread where one of the parties involved in the discussion is a moderator, and especially when that moderator is essentially involved in the dispute part, is there a setup in place to make sure that that moderator isn't the one who is then moderating the discussion? ie would said person recuse themselves? I dont mean to imply that Bruce ever brought that up or did that, and want to be super clear on that, but I ask because that was a big issue on the pedagogy forum a while back where a contentious discussion got going and a moderator started moderating in support of their own side. It seems like there is, but just wanted to ask/seems like an important thing.

I also agree that I'm curious about what the line is between moderating hate speech and moderating profanity...
Since you are specifically referring to me, please note that I did not make any effort to block the topic.

When discussions seem to go off the rails, we generally have discussions among the Staff. We try to come to a consensus about whether to block a topic and how long. The Site Owner has the right to overrule any of us, but I haven't seen that happen yet.

Generally locking of a topic is a result of a majority of the regular Staff (you can recognize us by the green or red names) voting to close.

The definition of hate speech can sometimes vary with the perceiver. Certainly anybody who starts spouting anti-[insert ethnic group here] speech will be warned and possibly even muffled. Having a difference of opinion and arguing that position is not considered hate speech unless the arguer tries to demean people of the other side (just watch Fox News for examples of arguments with demeaning),

There are actually profanity filters attached to Forum software (I don't know if one is here). On the old Trombone Forum we had a euphemism for a female part, which sometimes got inserted in some really odd sentences. There are some words that are not acceptable in a public Forum and may be removed without warning. Classic one is the 4 letter word for coitus. Yes, I know there are people who spout it frequently, but it's not nice in polite company.

I hope this helps explain things, even if you aren't happy about it.

And by the way, some of the Trombotine vs. Slide-O-Mix discussions got pretty heated at times on the old Forum.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:57 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:44 pm


Since you are specifically referring to me, please note that I did not make any effort to block the topic.

When discussions seem to go off the rails, we generally have discussions among the Staff. We try to come to a consensus about whether to block a topic and how long. The Site Owner has the right to overrule any of us, but I haven't seen that happen yet.

Generally locking of a topic is a result of a majority of the regular Staff (you can recognize us by the green or red names) voting to close.

The definition of hate speech can sometimes vary with the perceiver. Certainly anybody who starts spouting anti-[insert ethnic group here] speech will be warned and possibly even muffled. Having a difference of opinion and arguing that position is not considered hate speech unless the arguer tries to demean people of the other side (just watch Fox News for examples of arguments with demeaning),

There are actually profanity filters attached to Forum software (I don't know if one is here). On the old Trombone Forum we had a euphemism for a female part, which sometimes got inserted in some really odd sentences. There are some words that are not acceptable in a public Forum and may be removed without warning. Classic one is the 4 letter word for coitus. Yes, I know there are people who spout it frequently, but it's not nice in polite company.

I hope this helps explain things, even if you aren't happy about it.

And by the way, some of the Trombotine vs. Slide-O-Mix discussions got pretty heated at times on the old Forum.
thanks for the clarification- it's great to know that that's there! I remember when the stuff went down on the pedagogy forum something like that wasn't and it caused...a lot of work! And interesting to know about the profanity filters- certainly.clarifies that some things are easier to deal with than others...

sorry Bruce if I wasn't clear- it didn't feel at all like you ever tried to pull the moderator card. the potential issue just came to mind in the current discussion because of the issue in the pedagogy forum.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm

If there is one, the profanity filter didn't work then. MBarbiers F bomb went right up, and it isn't the first time. I feel like I'm leaning on his side of the fence with the social issue side of the house, but don't like seeing that word on this forum, even though I don't mind seeing it on other media spaces. No real personal offense, MBarbier, no worries. You're cool on my book. I just don't see the need for profanity on this site.

To compare, in a much more extreme example, there was a great conference video I saw with a panel discussing the same sort off issues, and there was one conservative professor, who stated his beliefs calmly without profanity, and one transgender person who did the same. Those two had a great conversation. The rest of the panel got emotional and used profanity and tried talking over each other -- it was embarrassing for both sides. It was like two intelligent people surrounded by morons. The two calm people actually saw eye to eye on most issues discussed, while the emotional ones argued for the sake of argument.

I want to feel like this forum is OK for kids to read. Granted, the content of that thread was probably already beyond that point, but profanity is an easy fix. Also, I'm sure these days profanity is part of every 6 year olds vocabulary, so I'm probably a dinosaur at age 34.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by PosauneCat » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:37 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:44 pm


And by the way, some of the Trombotine vs. Slide-O-Mix discussions got pretty heated at times on the old Forum.
How in the name of all that is holy could a discussion of slide lubes become heated? I think people just like to argue. :wink:
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by PosauneCat » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:40 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm
If there is one, the profanity filter didn't work then. MBarbiers F bomb went right up, and it isn't the first time. I feel like I'm leaning on his side of the fence with the social issue side of the house, but don't like seeing that word on this forum, even though I don't mind seeing it on other media spaces. No real personal offense, MBarbier, no worries. You're cool on my book. I just don't see the need for profanity on this site.
I’m from Brooklyn, so I can’t tell you how hard it is to censor myself online!
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:02 pm

PosauneCat wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:40 pm
harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm
If there is one, the profanity filter didn't work then. MBarbiers F bomb went right up, and it isn't the first time. I feel like I'm leaning on his side of the fence with the social issue side of the house, but don't like seeing that word on this forum, even though I don't mind seeing it on other media spaces. No real personal offense, MBarbier, no worries. You're cool on my book. I just don't see the need for profanity on this site.
I’m from Brooklyn, so I can’t tell you how hard it is to censor myself online!
I was a US Army infantryman for three years before I joined the Army Band. The language was so bad that it became comical.

It can't be that hard to censor or at least soften what is typed on a keyboard if I can do it lol.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:23 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm
If there is one, the profanity filter didn't work then. MBarbiers F bomb went right up, and it isn't the first time. I feel like I'm leaning on his side of the fence with the social issue side of the house, but don't like seeing that word on this forum, even though I don't mind seeing it on other media spaces. No real personal offense, MBarbier, no worries. You're cool on my book. I just don't see the need for profanity on this site.
definitely guilty of that one! well probably more than one.

after becoming a parent i got really good about not dropping f bombs at home and pretty careful about language when teaching, so it's sorta moved into the rest of my life to compensate. i'm....not great about it. i hadn't noticed it was against the policy here so i'll make sure to reign it in since it's not the space for it! glad no offense was taken- you're cool in my book too.

just a quick note for operating things (and part of why i was much more involved with the other thread than i normally am on here)- my pronouns are they/them. i should add that to my account signature for clarity.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by timothy42b » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:53 am

A couple of the posts above illustrate a point I have been trying to make, trying and failing, in these two threads and in previous discussions. Many people have a fundamental rejection of my position, which seems reasonable to me but obviously isn't.

Someone remarked earlier that if I am offended, it's on me.
Others will vehemently insist that if I use the wrong pronoun, name, etc. and they're offended, I'm guilty.

I don't think either one of those are binary, zero sum scenarios, where one person is right and the other is always wrong.

In real life, I think situations fall on a continuum between the two positions.

At least, that is my perception. But my attempts to suggest that have uniformly met with rejection and often abuse. (and in the case of that FB discussion, private personal attacks and threats)
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mrpillow » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:15 am

I don't think a few F bombs are nearly as much an issue as the dehumanizing hateful rhetoric, but I guess that's just my opinion.

Tread lightly.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:57 am

I run a professional board that uses the same platform (phpbb). I would have immediately deleted the post and the account of the OP of the other thread because of several combining factors:
1) It was off topic
2) it was from someone who signed up that day and had never contributed before (or since)
3) it was an intentional troll, misconstruing the other post for the purpose of creating off-topic controversy
4) There is no evidence that the person who posted was a trombonist or even a "girl", as stated in their user name.

I don't care about who the poster was, I don't care about the politics, I don't care about the topic. Objectively speaking, there was enough reason to clear the space, and preserve the reputation of the board as focused on a topic, not trollable, easily triggered and distracted.

On the board I run, I wind up rejecting most of the people who want to be members because it is clear that they don't have any association with the topic. When I'm not vigilant, I get spammed or trolled (as y'all just did). This trombone board has ~9000 members, only about 1 of 10 contribute in any way (you can see the number of posts from each member in the member list https://trombonechat.com/memberlist.php). I would guess that most of the people signed up and not contributing are bots or wannabe hackers looking for weaknesses to exploit with spam, ransom hijackings, or general mayhem. The same people try to sign up at my board and get rejected there. (There are certain patterns you can notice in people's profiles, emails, usernames and other hints that they come from a couple of sources other than the world of trombone players.) Why would you sign up for a board without contributing when the only benefit of signing up is being able to contribute? You wouldn't, unless you were interested in something other than contributing. And then the rules state that you have to have 2 posts approved by moderators before you can post freely. So not only did the folks running the board allow this to happen, someone had to actively approve it.

You can't really blame bad actors for being bad actors. You're not going to fix that, but the moderators on this board should be more vigilant and careful. You see what happened at Tubenet, which is now just a faint shadow of its former self and overtaken by interests other than tuba interests.

Further, I really don't like off topic stuff. I go to a board for a reason, not some random distraction. Still, I had to allow an off-topic area on my board just because people wanted it. My feeling is that Facebook is a steaming pile of $#!+ in part specifically because it is infected with this type of garbage, and if what you want is a steaming pile of $#!+, that's ok, but you'll have to go to Facebook or reality TV for that, not my board and hopefully not a trombone focused board. On my board I discourage off-topic traffic by preventing search crawler bots from crawling the off-topic areas, and even preventing the off-topic stuff from showing up in the Active Topics list or searches. On my board if you want off topic nonsense, you have to go looking for it. Here it's treated at the same level as everything else.

The people who run the board have a lot of tools at their disposal to prevent or allow divisive controversy. You can tell by the results what kind of choices they have made.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by BGuttman » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:29 am

@Hyperbolica:

Most of the members of this board have a name that starts with "ttf_" which means they were brought along with the part of The Trombone Forum we were able to salvage.

Still, we have a small number of active posters. Most seem to want to use the Classifieds, which was a very popular part of The Trombone Forum as well.

I have much more on my plate than scrutinizing single posts that appear to be even tangentially appropriate. Right now we are under constant bombardment of Russian, Ukrainian, and other posters more interested in selling you various pharmaceuticals (of questionable value), services (how does a Russian company move people in New York City?), sex, and various online casinos (again, of questionable honesty or value).

We do have the Tangents section for various discussions peripheral to trombone, and these are kept politics and religion free (although I really like to support the Flying Spaghetti Monster ;) ).

All in all, I think TromboneChat is running a lot smoother than The Trombone Forum ever did.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:35 am

That one time poster is actually a girl trombonist. I looked her up early in that thread just to be sure. Now I don't remember the details, and it's entirely possible she reads this without signing on.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:12 am

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:29 am
@Hyperbolica:

Most of the members of this board have a name that starts with "ttf_" which means they were brought along with the part of The Trombone Forum we were able to salvage.
I was looking at users on page 180 and going in reverse, so I never got to the ttf_ users. Most NEW signups aren't doing anything.
I have much more on my plate than scrutinizing single posts that appear to be even tangentially appropriate. Right now we are under constant bombardment of Russian, Ukrainian, and other posters more interested in selling you various
Yeah, so am I, and looking through the signups, I can see you are way too easy on them. Isn't it funny that certain email address patterns never participate? Until one day...
All in all, I think TromboneChat is running a lot smoother than The Trombone Forum ever did.
In fairness, ttf leadership was derelict, right? Better than ...nothing? I know it's a lot of work, but you could make it easier on yourselves in a lot of ways. Nixing bogus accounts and trolls would be one way. Do you want a list of bogus accounts in the last 100?
Last edited by hyperbolica on Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:17 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:35 am
That one time poster is actually a girl trombonist. I looked her up early in that thread just to be sure. Now I don't remember the details, and it's entirely possible she reads this without signing on.
Did you contact her through the email listed? Are you sure it's not just someone linking two pieces of publicly available information? Still, registering just to troll is not something I'd reward.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Matt K » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:01 pm

I really don't think it was trolling. I know a lot of people who would be upset at similar comments; right or wrong, which is why I moved it to the tangent section in the first place and thought it was worthwhile to discuss. A lot of other people wanted to discuss the subject, evidenced by the fact that there is now a meta thread about wanting to talk about the subject.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:44 pm

Matt K wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:01 pm
I really don't think it was trolling. ....
Uh, let's see.
- drive-by comment
- knee jerk reaction intentionally misconstruing previous comment
- signed up just to register the false indignation
- hasn't been back for clarification or followup discussion
- leaves a wake of chaos behind

No, you're right. Sounds totally legit. :roll:
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by timothy42b » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:58 pm

I didn't read it as a troll.

It looked more like pointing out something secondary to the main discussion, a viewpoint that she thought we should know about. It wasn't phrased in a manner that felt like a troll. I like to give the benefit of the doubt. Even if it were a troll it merited some discussion.

Too bad about the disappearing act, but still could be legit.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Matt K » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:13 pm

Of that list, really the thing that to me makes it seem like not trolling is that they didn't stick around. Trolls are usually well... persistent and annoying, at least in my opinion. And they tiptoe up to the line and poke without technically breaking rules etc. Just doesn't seem like trolling to me. If it happened a lot then maybe my opinion would change. But I think the discussion it spawned was something people watned to talk about. If it was something stupid like how slide-o-mix is clearly inferior to trombotine, that would have been one thing but...
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 pm

I feel like the point is really being missed by focusing on the account of the poster rather than the positive and extremely negative discussions it spawned. The thread got locked cause people were rolling in with hate speech and feel like that should be a much bigger concern than the account of who made the comment, that was then branched off into it's own thread. A bit like equating a discussion of slide lubricant to gender issues, one of which is currently being subjected to a bunch of intensely discriminatory laws across the country and the other is... not, the discussion focusing on the account rather than some of what it brought out in the community is pretty illustrative.

I got 7-8 messages from other non-cis male trombonists thanking for taking the bandwidth for engaging with this, expressing happiness that there were some positives, and a complete lack of surprise at the more toxic content. All of the people who wrote me are clearly reading the forum but feel like they don't have the bandwidth to deal with a lot of what this brought up (and don't feel safe in doing so either). I feel like this should be a much bigger concern than the account of the comment.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:28 pm

mbarbier wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 pm
I feel like the point is really being missed by focusing on the account of the poster rather than ...
If you're going to have a public space shared by people with different views,you have to focus on the published forum rules. From an admin point of view, you have to administer the rules fairly. Focusing on the emotional content leads to chaos. Focusing on the published rules allows people to coexist. If you published other rules (like Tubenet did), your user base would change (like Tubenet did). It sounds robotic and harsh, but it's the only way to align everyone's expectations and allow people who differ greatly on some topics to interact civilly on trombone. By setting the other stuff aside, you can have a nice place for everybody. You want to yell and act offended, tell Jerry Springer. :weep:

If on the other hand this is really a social engineering forum, then that would need to be made clear in the TOS. (cough - tubenet - cough)

Moving from talking about getting your hair caught in a valve mechanism to to accusations of some social faux pas or another was a clear off-topic non-sequitur, and provocative enough for some folks to unload some bad language and unseemly behavior. That's what this is about. You can't turn everything into an identity crisis in a public shared area. You may have friends who want to talk about that, and Facebook would be the appropriate place. Just look at Tubenet to see what happens. Keep it on the rails, between the lines. You have a lot more friends when you aren't throwing accusations around.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:43 pm

hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/

noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by mbarbier » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:00 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:28 pm
[You have a lot more friends when you aren't throwing accusations around.
I got plenty of friends. my preference is having fewer than having transphobic ones (or transphobic apologists).

also- pointing out that someone's words are deeply problematic isnt exactly an accusation. it's pointing out an issue so that, ideally, they can work on it.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by LeTromboniste » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:52 pm

Hyperbolica, the comment that sparked this whole thing was absolutely worth discussing, and was actually trombone related, so what's your point exactly? It was a comment about the under-representation and under-acknowledgement of non-male trombonists, which very much is a big problem in the trombone world. If we can't talk about this here on a trombone-dedicated board, where exactly is that going to be discussed? Whether we agree or not that the comment it was responding to is indeed or isn't problematic is irrelevant. It was a legitimate trombone-related post, and it sparked a very interesting conversation.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Matt K » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:43 pm

LeTromboniste wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:52 pm
Hyperbolica, the comment that sparked this whole thing was absolutely worth discussing, and was actually trombone related, so what's your point exactly? It was a comment about the under-representation and under-acknowledgement of non-male trombonists, which very much is a big problem in the trombone world. If we can't talk about this here on a trombone-dedicated board, where exactly is that going to be discussed? Whether we agree or not that the comment it was responding to is indeed or isn't problematic is irrelevant. It was a legitimate trombone-related post, and it sparked a very interesting conversation.

To be fair, the counter which i understand, is that it was about a joke that was misinterpreted since non binary people were not specifically referenced initially. Therefore, everything else is fruit of the poisoned tree because the origin was unrelated to the topic that was forked.

Obviously I don't totally agree since I'm the one who forked the thread but I understand it.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 pm

WilliamLang wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:43 pm
hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/...
So your best defense is name calling? How about a hyperbola is a possible shape of the bell of an instrument? But you're not looking for innocence or relevance, are you?
LeTromboniste wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:43 pm
Hyperbolica, the comment that sparked this whole thing was absolutely worth discussing,
Possibly, but not here, and not in the way it was brought up. Take it to Facebook, and make it an opt-in discussion, not a hijacked one. I haven't gotten to the content of what was said, and I'm not going to. I don't give a damn if you all keep getting red in the face at each other, just don't do it here. I'm only concerned about keeping this place a nice place to visit for real trombone players where I can escape this bickering.

I keep referencing Tubenet because it is exactly relevant. Exactly what keeps playing out here happened over there, but they went that one step further by essentially banning anyone who did not give the appropriate salute (doesn't matter which side). The place is now a ghost town. They have had 3 or 4 posts TODAY. Not this hour, today. Want that to happen here, mbarbier?
MattK wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:43 pm
Obviously I don't totally agree since I'm the one who forked the thread but I understand it.
One honest comment. Anyone else want to step back from the brink a little? I'm not asking anyone to concede that the other side isn't idiotic or evil or whatever the contention is. I just want you to allow the trombone forum to be Switzerland (in the neutral ground sense). Call names, get all offended somewhere else, please. Go visit the Active Topics list at Tubenet. It's 3 posts long. http://forums.chisham.com/search.php?se ... ive_topics

They couldn't control themselves or act like adults, so the forum died an ugly death. If you spent any time there when it was happening, it was unbelievable, and totally self-imposed. You want that to happen here? No of course you don't. No one wants that. So take your bickering somewhere else.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:45 pm

i'm not looking for innocennce or relevance here. i think you demonstrate more troll like behavior than most, and have noticed it over a length of time. I'm tired of this forum, so i don't care as much about appearance and diplomacy as i should, which is probably what keeps a large amount of people away from here.

you are taking shots at people and also telling them to take bickering elsewhere. i'm just tired of trying to have people think of others as equals and ins some cases flat-out existing, and i'm also not interested in your pedantic arguements anymore.

you can't be the fire and the fireman simultaneously.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by PosauneCat » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:31 pm

I have tried unsubscribing from this thread several times, but I keep getting notifications. Anyone know why that is happening?
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by Schlitz » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:06 am

WilliamLang wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:45 pm
i'm not looking for innocennce or relevance here. i think you demonstrate more troll like behavior than most, and have noticed it over a length of time. I'm tired of this forum, so i don't care as much about appearance and diplomacy as i should, which is probably what keeps a large amount of people away from here.

you are taking shots at people and also telling them to take bickering elsewhere. i'm just tired of trying to have people think of others as equals and ins some cases flat-out existing, and i'm also not interested in your pedantic arguements anymore.

you can't be the fire and the fireman simultaneously.
You can leave now. This is the 2nd straight year during the July period, where you're one of the Charlie Foxtrots on the forum. Last year it was about Fillmore marches. I'm seriously considering sending all of your posts to your department head, asking simply if you're suitable for the position, as outlined in your signature. I've already printed them off.

So you have until 9:00am, Monday EDT to edit your comments, and stop posting.

I think you're at home, intoxicated, looking for a fight, and I'm going to make that very clear to several college officials.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by LeTromboniste » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:46 am

Schlitz wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:06 am
I think you're at home, intoxicated, looking for a fight, and I'm going to make that very clear to several college officials.
... And that would be defamation...


This is getting insane. Mods?
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by elmsandr » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:21 am

Schlitz wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:06 am
....
So, can we get ban for Schlitz here? This is WAY out of line.

Cheers,
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by ithinknot » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 am

Schlitz wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:06 am
WilliamLang wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:45 pm
...
You can leave now. This is the 2nd straight year during the July period, where you're one of the Charlie Foxtrots on the forum. Last year it was about Fillmore marches. I'm seriously considering sending all of your posts to your department head, asking simply if you're suitable for the position, as outlined in your signature. I've already printed them off.

So you have until 9:00am, Monday EDT to edit your comments, and stop posting.

I think you're at home, intoxicated, looking for a fight, and I'm going to make that very clear to several college officials.
If this doesn't earn an immediate - and permanent - ban, it's hard to know what would.
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Re: Locking Threads that Haven't Devolved Into Chaos

Post by WilliamLang » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:45 am

I will speak up for people and their identities as I see fit. No alcohol was involved at any point.

Do people ever wonder why pros don't come here?
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