Tongue Motion/Placement

Post Reply
cigmar
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:56 am

Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by cigmar »

I've recently noticed something in my playing. When I play a sustained note, the tip of my tongue strikes the area where the upper teeth meet the gum and then travels down to the gully behind the lower teeth with the remainder of the tongue arched to direct the air flow, resulting in a mostly up and down motion. But when I articulate a rapid series of notes in succession my tongue travels back and forth only. It's like there isn't enough time for the tongue to move up and down and rest in the gully as it does with long tones. Is this normal?
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by Doug Elliott »

I think that's pretty typical. I've worked on making my tonguing action more vertical and less forward & backward, and I think it's been worthwhile.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
cigmar
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:56 am

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by cigmar »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:44 pm I think that's pretty typical. I've worked on making my tonguing action more vertical and less forward & backward, and I think it's been worthwhile.
To clarify, my tongue doesn't move to the forward and backward motion until I need to articulate sixteenth notes at around 132 and beyond. All other times it's pretty much, as you say, vertical. The tone is more focused when vertical due to the tongue properly shaping the air stream, I believe. How does one go about adhering to the vertical motion throughout, or should I not worry about the few times it goes horizontal under those circumstances.
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by Doug Elliott »

I have never been able to single-tongue 16ths anywhere near 132. I double tongue starting much slower, probably around 120.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
cigmar
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:56 am

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by cigmar »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:02 pm I have never been able to single-tongue 16ths anywhere near 132. I double tongue starting much slower, probably around 120.
Yeah, well I was never really adept at doubling tonguing, so I guess I developed an increased area of single tonguing to compensate. It's funny though, I can double or triple tongue with a certain degree of success when the pitches change. But to do either when the pitch remains the same just doesn't seem to work for me. I get tongue-tied. I think it may be my need to coordinate slide motion with tongue motion. Don't know.
baileyman
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:33 pm

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by baileyman »

132 is grrr-EATTTT!!!

Tonguing seems far more complicated and subtle than the discussions I have seen and heard. No advice I have heard matches what seems to happen at all possible pitches at all possible tempos at all possible volumes, not to mention styles. The thing seems to have to move around in order to accomplish the specific pitch and tempo at hand. 3rd partial F may work as in the books, but 6th partial is different, and 12th partial is way different, as are the lower ones.

My own solution is to practice at a daily tempo, then the rest has to conform to that. On a different day the conformance may be different. In the end I can't understand how it works, or say how it works either, but I sure can feel it.
trombonedemon
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:25 pm
Location: NC

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by trombonedemon »

That Emory Remington method, the syllable "Tu, Tu,.." seems to work best for me, and the "Da, Da" tongue for slurred passages seems in the middle ground for me. Although it seems to be up to the composer or the conductor's interpretation or the section you are in.

Seems to be more of an interruption of air than stopping of the air stream in classical training..so on so forth.

To the original poster, how are you starting the notes...tongue or chops? What type sound do you have in mind?
Conn 112 H w/bored out rotors w/heavyweight caps, Sterling Silver Edward's B3 and Shires B3 leadpipe w/62H slide. Long Island Brass Comp Dimensions 29.5 inner rim .323 backbore solid silver lefreque
cigmar
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:56 am

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by cigmar »

trombonedemon wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:48 pm That Emory Remington method, the syllable "Tu, Tu,.." seems to work best for me, and the "Da, Da" tongue for slurred passages seems in the middle ground for me. Although it seems to be up to the composer or the conductor's interpretation or the section you are in.

Seems to be more of an interruption of air than stopping of the air stream in classical training..so on so forth.

To the original poster, how are you starting the notes...tongue or chops? What type sound do you have in mind?
I agree with and am doing pretty much everything you say. "Tu" for articulated notes, "Da" for legato, interrupting rather than stopping the air stream especially on legato passages. My question revolved around the issue of my tongue changing from primarily an up and down motion to a back and forth motion when encountering rapid articulated passages.
WillydeWoofer
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:21 pm

Re: Tongue Motion/Placement

Post by WillydeWoofer »

1 Place the tip of your tongue at the inside of the upper lip. This brings your cheek in the right position. That meens
the lips and teeth are coming across each other. Take care you hold your sheek in the same position.

2 Give air using the stomach muscles and put the tongue tip behind and leaning to the under teeth.
Now the airflow reaches the lips with the least resistance. And the throat opens as far as possible, also little
resistance.

3 Change pitch by saying tah, toh, tee, tie, etc. Or like you are whistling, that's the same.

It helped hundreds of students to get a better sound, high notes, low notes, etc.
Act like your air stream never stops.
Good luck.
Post Reply

Return to “Performance”