Embouture Collapse?

[Bassbonebabe]

So I've had this issue for around a month. My embouture burns and feels puffy and almost red after I play for an extremely short time. I'm cracking all sorts of notes and some of my lower notes dont speak or split before they make any sound. I'm missing easy partial jumps like a C above the staff to a Gb on the staff or an F on the staff to a lower Ab not even an octave away. I sound like I did a year ago and I can hear a vibrating from a mouthpiece that I only heard last time this happened. Help!

[Bassbonebabe]

My sister had the same issue but hers was so bad she couldnt buzz for a while. I've taken breaks and it only improved a little for around a day. My lips feel like they do after playing high for extended periods of time.

[AndrewMeronek]

Allergic reaction to something? I'd suggest to first give your horn and mouthpiece a week of daily vigorous cleaning to make sure there isn't a mold or something in the horn that you're reacting to.

[Bassbonebabe]

Allergic reaction to something? I'd suggest to first give your horn and mouthpiece a week of daily vigorous cleaning to make sure there isn't a mold or something in the horn that you're reacting to.

I hadn't thought to try that yet! I'll give it a shot! This all occurred after a VERY intensive set of stand tunes back to back to back at our last peprally. I remember playing towards the end and not knowing if the sound I hear was coming from my instrument bc I could not feel my buzz.

[Doubler]

Could mouthpiece pressure be the problem? Some inexperienced players fight fatigue with a combination of pressure, blowing harder, and stretching the lips. Force is the enemy of success here and could be the source of your problem. If it is, taking it easy for a few days and changing your technique may be the answer.

[Bassbonebabe]

Could mouthpiece pressure be the problem? Some inexperienced players fight fatigue with a combination of pressure, blowing harder, and stretching the lips. Force is the enemy of success here and could be the source of your problem. If it is, taking it easy for a few days and changing your technique may be the answer.

I've been using the same mouthpiece for around a year with my (bass) trombone. I had previously used a Bach 1.5 G for a few months but it was really restrictive, so I moved to my Griego CS1 and fell in love. I have considered other options though especially more open ones. For now I'm afraid its not this issue was never present in marching season only in last April's audition season and this February.

[harrisonreed]

Red chops, sore, pain? Is it sore muscles, or sore skin?

sore muscles? You are pressing too hard, not using proper compression/resistance, need an embouchure addressing lesson, or are using a rim that is way too big. Stop playing, heal, and then get a lesson.

If it's sore skin and not muscles, which I suspect, check it out: you might be reacting to the rim in a couple ways, from most likely to least likely:

1. You are chronically dehydrated, and/or you are playing in a very cold or dry environment. If you don't drink much water, and you keep pressing metal to your face covered in spit, you're gonna have a bad day. Remember when you were ten and got really bad chapped lips, and you kept licking them, and it just kept getting worse until they looked like clown lips? Your mouthpiece will tear em up 100x faster than that, and it will happen sooner and sooner the longer you keep drinking redbulls and coffee instead of water, and the longer you continue trying to play without properly rehydrating.

2. You didn't take care of your mouthpiece, and the rim is now burred at the slightly less than microscopic level. Maybe you like to keep it out because you like it so much, so you set it on tables upside down so the rim makes a curcle on the table. Don't do it. This makes number 1, if that scenario also fits you, 1000x worse. Mouthpiece stays in case, or in the business end of the trombone.

3. Your mouthpiece has its own biome, complete with flora, fungi, and fauna unknown to science. You cant be sure, but you think you saw a blast ended skrewt in the throat once. The sensitive skin on your lips doesn't like being attacked by this crap, especially if #1 above is true. Also if #2 is true. Get some nice mouthpiece spray, some dawn, and a mouthpiece brush and clean that thing.

4. You are allergic to silver. Get a gold plated version of your mouthpiece, keep it clean, and don't scuff it up by placing it anywhere other than its case, and into the trombone. Or, get a lesson from Doug Elliott, figure out the best mouthpiece specs for you, and order it with a hypoallergenic lexan rim. I used to think I couldn't play silver mouthpieces and that they tore my face up. But I just took better care of my gold plated stuff. As well as the conditions 1 and 2 above. At least I washed it though...

5. You blew your face out while you were blowing it up in pep band, and tore the musculature in you lips right beneath the skin. Go to the ER.

Try fixing #1, even if you don't think that's the reason. You'd be surprised what 2 liters if water a day will cure.

[Bassbonebabe]

Red chops, sore, pain? Is it sore muscles, or sore skin?

sore muscles? You are pressing too hard, not using proper compression/resistance, need an embouchure addressing lesson, or are using a rim that is way too big. Stop playing, heal, and then get a lesson.

If it's sore skin and not muscles, which I suspect, check it out: you might be reacting to the rim in a couple ways, from most likely to least likely:

1. You are chronically dehydrated, and/or you are playing in a very cold or dry environment. If you don't drink much water, and you keep pressing metal to your face covered in spit, you're gonna have a bad day. Remember when you were ten and got really bad chapped lips, and you kept licking them, and it just kept getting worse until they looked like clown lips? Your mouthpiece will tear em up 100x faster than that, and it will happen sooner and sooner the longer you keep drinking redbulls and coffee instead of water, and the longer you continue trying to play without properly rehydrating.

2. You didn't take care of your mouthpiece, and the rim is now burred at the slightly less than microscopic level. Maybe you like to keep it out because you like it so much, so you set it on tables upside down so the rim makes a curcle on the table. Don't do it. This makes number 1, if that scenario also fits you, 1000x worse. Mouthpiece stays in case, or in the business end of the trombone.

3. Your mouthpiece has its own biome, complete with flora, fungi, and fauna unknown to science. You cant be sure, but you think you saw a blast ended skrewt in the throat once. The sensitive skin on your lips doesn't like being attacked by this crap, especially if #1 above is true. Also if #2 is true. Get some nice mouthpiece spray, some dawn, and a mouthpiece brush and clean that thing.

4. You are allergic to silver. Get a gold plated version of your mouthpiece, keep it clean, and don't scuff it up by placing it anywhere other than its case, and into the trombone. Or, get a lesson from Doug Elliott, figure out the best mouthpiece specs for you, and order it with a hypoallergenic lexan rim. I used to think I couldn't play silver mouthpieces and that they tore my face up. But I just took better care of my gold plated stuff. As well as the conditions 1 and 2 above. At least I washed it though...

5. You blew your face out while you were blowing it up in pep band, and tore the musculature in you lips right beneath the skin. Go to the ER.

Try fixing #1, even if you don't think that's the reason. You'd be surprised what 2 liters if water a day will cure.

Thank you! I will consider ALL of these, and will put 1-3 into effect ASAP, and see how my playing changes over some time. #5 sounds like every brass player's nightmare. #4 is a possibility I've been considering recently, but it's horrifying when I realize my current mouthpiece is $255 when gold plated! . I'll begin with 1 today and 2 and 3 are in the process as I am currently deep cleaning.

[Doug Elliott]

My guess is it's a combination of 2 or 3 things at the same time.

Allergy, or maybe more accurately described as metal sensitivity. Maybe combined with sensitivity to something else you come in contact with, like your toothpaste.
Something you're doing wrong in your playing.
You blew your chops out, mostly because of whatever you're doing wrong.

You said this has happened before. Fix it before it happens again.

[Bassbonebabe]

My guess is it's a combination of 2 or 3 things at the same time.

Allergy, or maybe more accurately described as metal sensitivity. Maybe combined with sensitivity to something else you come in contact with, like your toothpaste.
Something you're doing wrong in your playing.
You blew your chops out, mostly because of whatever you're doing wrong.

You said this has happened before. Fix it before it happens again.

Thank you! Spring break is coming up in around 2 weeks and I'm looking forward to the chance for a break on my chops. I definitely blew them out. It just has lasted longer than usual and that's why I became so worried. I am actually currently looking at alternative mouthpieces for the dreaded metal allergy suggestion. If the problems are still there, the break hopefully will allow me to isolate the actual problem, and it could potentially lead to me finding a professional for specialized, in-person help.

[trombonedemon]

My guess is it's a combination of 2 or 3 things at the same time.

Allergy, or maybe more accurately described as metal sensitivity. Maybe combined with sensitivity to something else you come in contact with, like your toothpaste.
Something you're doing wrong in your playing.
You blew your chops out, mostly because of whatever you're doing wrong.

You said this has happened before. Fix it before it happens again.

That was my first impression; how much nickle is typically used in gold plating on mouthpieces?

[harrisonreed]

My guess is it's a combination of 2 or 3 things at the same time.

Allergy, or maybe more accurately described as metal sensitivity. Maybe combined with sensitivity to something else you come in contact with, like your toothpaste.
Something you're doing wrong in your playing.
You blew your chops out, mostly because of whatever you're doing wrong.

You said this has happened before. Fix it before it happens again.

Thank you! Spring break is coming up in around 2 weeks and I'm looking forward to the chance for a break on my chops. I definitely blew them out. It just has lasted longer than usual and that's why I became so worried. I am actually currently looking at alternative mouthpieces for the dreaded metal allergy suggestion. If the problems are still there, the break hopefully will allow me to isolate the actual problem, and it could potentially lead to me finding a professional for specialized, in-person help.

The person you were replying to, Doug Elliott, is such a person. He makes lexan rims, too.

[BGuttman]

My guess is it's a combination of 2 or 3 things at the same time.

Allergy, or maybe more accurately described as metal sensitivity. Maybe combined with sensitivity to something else you come in contact with, like your toothpaste.
Something you're doing wrong in your playing.
You blew your chops out, mostly because of whatever you're doing wrong.

You said this has happened before. Fix it before it happens again.

That was my first impression; how much nickle is typically used in gold plating on mouthpieces?

Most gold plating on mouthpieces is pure gold, especially if done by a mouthpiece manufacturer. If you go to your local jeweler to do the plating they may do 14 karat gold which has a fair amount of nickel. If you go to an electronics plater they may use something called "hard gold" which contains either nickel or cobalt to improve wear resistance.

You have another option, which will probably be easy since you are a girl. Try putting a thin layer of nail polish on the rim of your mouthpiece. It won't last forever (does it really last long on your nails?) but will provide a barrier between your skin and the mouthpiece plating.

One other possible issue: as a teenager your body is underoing some changes and this may be a response to some of those changes.

[trombonedemon]

That was my first impression; how much nickle is typically used in gold plating on mouthpieces?

Most gold plating on mouthpieces is pure gold, especially if done by a mouthpiece manufacturer. If you go to your local jeweler to do the plating they may do 14 karat gold which has a fair amount of nickel. If you go to an electronics plater they may use something called "hard gold" which contains either nickel or cobalt to improve wear resistance.

You have another option, which will probably be easy since you are a girl. Try putting a thin layer of nail polish on the rim of your mouthpiece. It won't last forever (does it really last long on your nails?) but will provide a barrier between your skin and the mouthpiece plating.

One other possible issue: as a teenager your body is underoing some changes and this may be a response to some of those changes.

I agree, as we age (some slower then others) we tend to get less tolerant to our environment. I now have to go through immunotherapy.

[harrisonreed]

Also, don't forget, if yiu try seeing if hydration helps, it takes about two days to hydrate.

[Bassbonebabe]

Thank you! Spring break is coming up in around 2 weeks and I'm looking forward to the chance for a break on my chops. I definitely blew them out. It just has lasted longer than usual and that's why I became so worried. I am actually currently looking at alternative mouthpieces for the dreaded metal allergy suggestion. If the problems are still there, the break hopefully will allow me to isolate the actual problem, and it could potentially lead to me finding a professional for specialized, in-person help.

The person you were replying to, Doug Elliott, is such a person. He makes lexan rims, too.

Yep! I had his website open before he replied! I am very interested in the mouthpieces; I just do not have the funds at the moment. I am unable to travel to see him in person if that was the implication. I do know exactly who he is tho

[PaulTdot]

Another idea:

Sometimes your lips could react to some kind of wear and tear away from the instrument. Two common examples that come up are wind exposure (going outside a lot on cold, windy days) or kissing someone with obnoxious facial hair (!!!), for instance. Are you eating a different diet (e.g. spicy food)? When I eat spicy food, I try to avoid contact with my lips - that helps avoid them swelling, especially if it's after a long gig.

Definitely make sure you're well hydrated (give it two days, as someone said, above) in case that helps things (it usually does, worth it even if it doesn't entirely solve your issue).

[Bassbonebabe]

Another idea:

Sometimes your lips could react to some kind of wear and tear away from the instrument. Two common examples that come up are wind exposure (going outside a lot on cold, windy days) or kissing someone with obnoxious facial hair (!!!), for instance. Are you eating a different diet (e.g. spicy food)? When I eat spicy food, I try to avoid contact with my lips - that helps avoid them swelling, especially if it's after a long gig.

Definitely make sure you're well hydrated (give it two days, as someone said, above) in case that helps things (it usually does, worth it even if it doesn't entirely solve your issue).

Noted! The weather is all over the place here in the south too so that makes sense, and no diet change that I'm aware of. I'll rule out obnoxious facial hair as I'm a guy and my girlfriend has none lol!

[Doug Elliott]

The folowing, which you wrote, is going about it backwards.
"If the problems are still there, the break hopefully will allow me to isolate the actual problem, and it could potentially lead to me finding a professional for specialized, in-person help."

If you have Skype you don't have travel to see me.

Sometimes I have some used mouthpieces available for half price.

[Slideofhand1]

To repeat basics
Clean horn
Mouthpiece not only clean but cup and lip must be well plated , no brass peeking through
and no abrasions on Lip .

Sore chops
Most common reason is incorrect breathing method ,too much pressure.
Or ,you are physically tired .Happens to the best of us.
Remember ,we train and work the muscles in our face to play brass instruments and these muscles need rest.
Many musicians consider resting their chops make them weaker .
I use these interludes to mentally practice .Visualize new patterns , come back fresh .