Alto Trombone Chops

[TromboneConcerto]

Hi there,

I'm currently struggling to get through the entire Wagenseil Concerto without being completely chopped out about closer to the end. My tenor chops seem to last a whole lot longer. Anyone have any idea as to why this is happening?

Thanks!

[harrisonreed]

You aren't letting the air do the work.

alto trombone sound concept, sure. But that doesn't mean tight embouchure.

getting the right mouthpiece helps tremendously. Not being afraid to push air does too.

A completely different can of worms: bad intonation kills chops. Let your ears and slide do the work. If you are trying to play the slide like a tenor trombone, you'll chop out pretty quick.

[AndrewMeronek]

I would say there's not enough information to say definitively. But there are a few things to check (I agree with harrisonreed):

Bad intonation will indeed kill chops.

I've never really had air support issues with my alto, but others may have.

Make sure your physical setup is basically the same between alto and tenor. The alto can have a narrower slide, so sometimes that can change how you place the mouthpiece on your mouth.

Play quieter.

Let the alto sound like it's own thing - don't force it to sound like a tenor. That is too much work. To my ears, the alto sound is between a tenor and a trumpet - which makes it a fantastic instrument to 'bridge the gap' in sounds between these two sections, which can be a really fun part of playing some 19th century rep. like Brahms overtures.

[Matt K]

When I play alto on the same rim size as my tenor, I have no issues. When I play it on something much smaller, I sound like horsemeat. If you happen to be one of those players that can make considerable switching of rim sizes work, more power to you but you'll still have to put in roughly equally as much time on both rim sizes if you want your endurance on them to be roughly the same. If not, might be worth it to get something that more closely resembles wha tyou play on tenor but probably with a shallower cup and obviously with a small shank back bore.

[TromboneConcerto]

When I play alto on the same rim size as my tenor, I have no issues. When I play it on something much smaller, I sound like horsemeat. If you happen to be one of those players that can make considerable switching of rim sizes work, more power to you but you'll still have to put in roughly equally as much time on both rim sizes if you want your endurance on them to be roughly the same. If not, might be worth it to get something that more closely resembles wha tyou play on tenor but probably with a shallower cup and obviously with a small shank back bore.

I have a Doug Elliott setup that's the same rim as what I'm playing on tenor, but I prefer the way I sound on my Bach 7C and I actually seem to have more endurance problems when I use the DE. I'll try it again though while using more air, I think that's probably the right way to go.

[johntarr]

I’ve experienced similar (I think) issues and found that I was blowing too much air and I think my lips were having to compensate and create resistance. As some of the posts above said, let the horn do more of the work and make sure your sound concept isn’t causing you to use more energy than the instrument needs.

[Matt K]

When I play alto on the same rim size as my tenor, I have no issues. When I play it on something much smaller, I sound like horsemeat. If you happen to be one of those players that can make considerable switching of rim sizes work, more power to you but you'll still have to put in roughly equally as much time on both rim sizes if you want your endurance on them to be roughly the same. If not, might be worth it to get something that more closely resembles wha tyou play on tenor but probably with a shallower cup and obviously with a small shank back bore.

I have a Doug Elliott setup that's the same rim as what I'm playing on tenor, but I prefer the way I sound on my Bach 7C and I actually seem to have more endurance problems when I use the DE. I'll try it again though while using more air, I think that's probably the right way to go.

Is it just a small shank or does it have comparable specs to the 7C? You might just be one of those people that can make it work but there's no free lunch - you'll need to put time in on both rim sizes if you want to have similar amounts of endurance. Otherwise, you might want to consider something like a C + C Alto underpart (which is similar to the 7C). I find that I much prefer Doug's "Alto" shanks on altos than the regular sizes.

[TromboneConcerto]

I have a Doug Elliott setup that's the same rim as what I'm playing on tenor, but I prefer the way I sound on my Bach 7C and I actually seem to have more endurance problems when I use the DE. I'll try it again though while using more air, I think that's probably the right way to go.

Is it just a small shank or does it have comparable specs to the 7C? You might just be one of those people that can make it work but there's no free lunch - you'll need to put time in on both rim sizes if you want to have similar amounts of endurance. Otherwise, you might want to consider something like a C + C Alto underpart (which is similar to the 7C). I find that I much prefer Doug's "Alto" shanks on altos than the regular sizes.

It's a 102N rim (similar size to my tenor) a C cup and a C 3 Shank? I think? Its not the alto specific one but it's the one right above it.

[Matt K]

It's a 102N rim (similar size to my tenor) a C cup and a C 3 Shank? I think? Its not the alto specific one but it's the one right above it.

C3 is meant for larger, small bore tenors. There isn't as much a difference between the 2 and 3 as there is the alto and 2 though. Or alto S if you have an odd sized shank... I think the Yamaha are the standard size though but I could be wrong. The alto backbore really changes where the partials line up. At least they have on all the altos I've played. Makes it far easier to play to have the backbore matching the instrument. I don't know specifically what the throat or backbore is for the 7C but I would be really surprised if it was as large as the C3 shank. On a normal small bore in Bb you'd probably be fine but having used the alto shank... I really can say it makes a huge difference. Fwiw. At the end of the day, if you prefer the sound of the one you'll just need to put the time in on it. It's a lot smaller than the 102 (equivalent would be like an ST98 rim size). I spent roughly 6 months on a similar size for small bore and it still gave me trouble!

[harrisonreed]

I think the alto "s" backbore was specific to the weird conn alto leadpipe taper. I don't think it's a generic shank for all altos. Is there just an "alto" shank?

[Matt K]

I think the alto "s" backbore was specific to the weird conn alto leadpipe taper. I don't think it's a generic shank for all altos. Is there just an "alto" shank?

The "S" is the outside shape so that it fits in certain altos that have a different insertion depth than standard small shank; my Conn 36 was like this but there are other altos for which it applies, though I don't believe Yamaha has any that are oddly shaped.

In contrast, the regular "Alto" shank has the same outer shape as the other shanks but the different throat/backbore to match the altos. I replaced my 36H pipe with a Shires '2' that was flared out at the end - it worked best with the "Alto" shank; with the stock pipe, it worked best with the 'Alto S' shank. Though both of the Alto shanks were better than the '2' shank for me.

In Doug's words:

alto S - backbore for most Eb alto trombones, slightly smaller taper than tenor to go in farther
alto - backbore for Eb alto trombones with normal tenor taper

[Doug Elliott]

Almost all altos play best and easiest with the "alto s" shank.
C3 is probably a bad choice for alto, that may be a majority of the endurance problem.

[Matt K]

Funny this should get brought up... I was playing my medium bore today and was wondering why my low range wasn't working so well. I like to do things that cover the whole range of the horn when I have limited time to practice... today the pedals and F side in particular were just... not quit there. Turns out I mixed up my small shanks in my drawer... I was planing an ST104N/C+/CAlto, which is what I historically used on my alto which is currently in the shop... normally I use an XT104N/E/E4 shank on this particular horn! Not just placebo I suppose!

[TromboneConcerto]

Interesting... Okay. I'll check out a C Alto shank. Doug, if you're at ATW again I'll stop by.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes I'll be there and I will have C Alto and C Alto s shanks.

[harrisonreed]

Yes I'll be there and I will have C Alto and C Alto s shanks.

Doug, will you have any Alessi "1" shaped rims there? I have an XT105 gold plate and an XT106 lexan, and the 106 feels a tad too big, and the 105 feels like the rim is too thin. Could be that lexan just isn't for me.

On alto I'd much rather use your mouthpiece but I just can't get the rim right. The S shank and C+ cup are both better than what I use, but I'm stubborn about my rim, I guess.

[Doug Elliott]

I have not made copies of that rim.

[harrisonreed]

I have not made copies of that rim.

maybe the 106 not in lexan would be the one. Thanks for the reply, Doug!

[Matt K]

Going to sound a little funny but you might want to try one of the Euph rims. They are from the bass blanks though so something would have to be done to accommodate that... (e.g. custom such as a Euph C+ cup too...) but you can at least feel if the rim is right. The series really make a big difference. More than I thought would be the case. I have an ST104N in lexan that works really well for playing lead (and alto, coincidentally) but I find that my endurance on that particular shape requires that I play on it for a few days even if I've been playing on an XT104N a lot.

EDIT: Actually, it dawned on me after I hit 'post' that there may be SB series in stock and those go down to 105 rims and also have stock C and E cups.

FWIW: I actually have an LB D cup that works... surprisingly well. I don't usually perform on it and keep it in my small bore mouthpiece pouch so I can practice on that rim size without getting out a full bass or for when I travel and only take one horn etc. I think I've pulled it out for a performance once and it was for a big band gig where the 3rd part had some F side stuff on it that were parallel 5ths with the bass bone so it actually fit the bill for that perfectly.

[harrisonreed]

If a SB 106 is a bit beefier and fits my XT stuff, I'd try it. Thanks Matt

[imsevimse]

The Alto does not need as much volume (air) as a tenor. One of the mistakes one does in the beginning is to push to much air and play it too loud. Think "slim" rather than "fat/big". This is my experience with the Bach 39 I use for Alto parts., and it helped.

/Tom

[Matt K]

If a SB 106 is a bit beefier and fits my XT stuff, I'd try it. Thanks Matt

Alas, anything larger than an XT is a bass blank but if you're at a convention or whatnot you can at least try it without any risk! Remember too that the stock bass rims are 'narrow'. Slightly confusingly, the Euph are bass blanks but have the same nomenclature as the tenors. So a regular width Euph is wider like the standard wider rims of the XT series. But starting with SB, you'd want an SB106W or SB106sW. You might also want to try something with the SR designation (semi-round).

Hah or I suppose the simplest oddly enough might be just to thread the '1' rim for your XT stuff

[bcschipper]

I am just a dilettante on both alto and tenor but initially I also noticed much less endurance on the alto. This changed somewhat when I realized that due to the narrow slide I placed the alto lower on my neck. This changed the angle of the instrument and put more pressure on the upper lip. After realizing it and correcting for it, my endurance improved a lot. It is still less than on my tenor though.

The advice of using more air on alto is a bit confusing I believe. Generally I need less air on alto but it helps to have more air support to move (less) air quicker on alto. That is, less air (out) but more air support (i.e., enough air in the lungs) seem to help me.

In terms of equipment, I use an old smaller alto made by Kruspe that really sounds like an alto. I use an original old Kruspe alto mouthpiece in bronze-nickel. It is essentially similar in rim width and rim shape as my Kruspe Weschke tenor mouthpiece I use on my Kruspe Weschke tenor but the cup is less deep. I tried others but I like the sound, response, and intonation with this old mouthpiece best. Since the rim size is the same as on my tenor, it is also very easy to switch between my tenor and alto.