Numb top lip

[singingbowlorchestra]

Greetings Trombone Chatters! I asked a question here before about ending notes and thanks to the kind advice of many members and careful practicing I now have beautiful rounded notes and my colleague who initially brought it up with me has complimented me on how well shaped my notes are now! Thanks a lot!

I have a new problem and I cannot afford a teacher to ask. Last September I entered for my ABRSM Grade 7 exam to be played in December and quickly realised that I had overstepped myself somewhat but didn't want to waste the fee so set about doing 3 hours practice a day alternating between high days and medium range days with one day off a week (just a warm up and a quick mid range piece.) I pulled through and managed to get a distinction in the exam. Then in the month before Christmas I was busking Christmas carols for up to 6 hours a day on my Baritone Horn but not going any higher than G on top of the treble staff, I barely played anything higher for a month. For Christmas my friends and family bought me trombone books with many of the Grade 8 pieces in and I have set about learning them doing 2 or 3 hours daily with my alternating days and one full day off a week. Some of the pieces I have chosen go pretty high; David Concertino 3rd movement (goes up to top C) and Tony Cliffs Four Sketches for Trombone (goes up to a top D flat). On a good day I can squeal a top D flat. My top C although a bit of a struggle sometimes is really coming on and has a nice tone (verified by my colleague at the orchestra). I went at it pretty hard the other day and by the end of 3 hours (not all at once but spread out through the day) the top C could no longer be played but the top B flat was still clear and resonant. After playing my top lip felt a little numb. My colleague says that this is just fatigue and I shouldn't worry too much. But the day after when I was playing a super easy day (everything below the high F) my lip would periodically get a little numb. This numbness is only slight and I wouldn't say that it was even uncomfortable the sensation just caused some worry as I had never felt it before. Has this happened to anyone else before? Did it go away on its own after a while or did you have to change routine/technique etc? How worried should I be? Again I would state that I went hard that day and repeatedly played very high notes (the Tony Cliff is just full of them), going over the phrases again and again until I was exhausted. Did I come back to playing high notes too quickly?

Thank you for reading this long story and any advice that anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again. Alex

[Doug Elliott]

It's a little late to tell you what you should have done, but...

Never practice on fatigued chops. Nothing good comes from doing that.

If you're going to alternate days it should be hard and light, not hard and medium. And I wouldn't take a day completely off.

At this point I would try 2 light days and one medium day, and repeat that pattern, nothing hard. Keep your volume down. Lips slurs, very little articulation. Limit the range both directions, you probably playing both wrong

Lots more I would tell you in a lesson but you said you don't want that.

[MrHCinDE]

Things have certainly got harder since I did the ABRSM exams many moons ago. IIRC I played the Guilmant Morceau Symphonique and the solo from Mahler 3. Not that those are without some challenges, and I don’t claim to have mastered them, but I’d expect the pieces you mentioned would give me more trouble.

I'd suggest to work on other aspects of playing before exhausting yourself going though phrases over and over again, especially those which are at the very limit of your range. Nothing good will come of that, only frustration.

How about working though range building and flexibility exercises very slowly until you have at least comfortable Db. You could continue to work slowly on to a usable D and a couple of notes above which should make you more comfortable with the Db. A few weeks of focus on getting the range comfortable and with a good sound cannot harm (caveat: unless you have an embouchure problem which is limiting you and for which no amount of practice will compensate and may even be counter-productive). Don’t move on to a higher note or exercise until the previous one is rock solid.

Personally I’ve been using the Charles Colin Lip flexibilities book for self study and am enjoying it, there are plenty of other too.

How do you split up the 3 hours? How long for each session and with what breaks? 3 hours sounds like a lot to me, you could try to practice more efficiently instead. Like I said, no point playing phrases repeatedly and getting exhausted. Be disciplined.

Are you still playing baritone? Do you use a similar mouthpiece (maybe with different shank) on both? Some people are quite sensitive to alternating between mouthpiece rims, especially when playing for hours at a time as you have been. Considered focussing 100% on trombone for a bit.

If there's an embouchure issue, you're unlikely to be able to fix, or even identify it, without expert help but I understand that as you say, you're not looking for a teacher so will have to rely on suggestions on here.

[singingbowlorchestra]

Things have certainly got harder since I did the ABRSM exams many moons ago. IIRC I played the Guilmant Morceau Symphonique and the solo from Mahler 3. Not that those are without some challenges, and I don’t claim to have mastered them, but I’d expect the pieces you mentioned would give me more trouble.

I'd suggest to work on other aspects of playing before exhausting yourself going though phrases over and over again, especially those which are at the very limit of your range. Nothing good will come of that, only frustration.

How about working though range building and flexibility exercises very slowly until you have at least comfortable Db. You could continue to work slowly on to a usable D and a couple of notes above which should make you more comfortable with the Db. A few weeks of focus on getting the range comfortable and with a good sound cannot harm (caveat: unless you have an embouchure problem which is limiting you and for which no amount of practice will compensate and may even be counter-productive). Don’t move on to a higher note or exercise until the previous one is rock solid.

Personally I’ve been using the Charles Colin Lip flexibilities book for self study and am enjoying it, there are plenty of other too.

How do you split up the 3 hours? How long for each session and with what breaks? 3 hours sounds like a lot to me, you could try to practice more efficiently instead. Like I said, no point playing phrases repeatedly and getting exhausted. Be disciplined.

Are you still playing baritone? Do you use a similar mouthpiece (maybe with different shank) on both? Some people are quite sensitive to alternating between mouthpiece rims, especially when playing for hours at a time as you have been. Considered focussing 100% on trombone for a bit.

If there's an embouchure issue, you're unlikely to be able to fix, or even identify it, without expert help but I understand that as you say, you're not looking for a teacher so will have to rely on suggestions on here.

I have been doing the 3 hours almost in one go but with short breaks because my neighbour has specific times that I can practice although I have worked out a plan to break it up a bit. So I would do 40-50 minutes warming up with long notes, lip slur exercises, single, double and triple tonguing exercises, a few scales and then work on some of the lip slur studies from "How Trombonists Do It" for the rest of that time. Then the rest of the time would be spent in 30-40 minute sections playing pieces. I take 5-10 minute breaks between these sessions. I try to be as efficient as possible; I play through a piece until a problem passage is identified then I stop and work on that passage for a while then leave it for the day and move on to the next problem passage. The next day I will play the piece again and review those passages. As for the baritone I use the same mouthpiece (Vincent Bach 5GS) as for my trombone but with a smaller shank as the baritone is medium bore and my trombone is large bore (Conn 88HO) I am playing 100% trombone currently, but with the occasional busking day on baritone if I am short of money.

I couldn't afford regular lessons but I could probably stretch to a few one offs but where I live (Liverpool UK) there are not a whole lot of brass teachers. Some years ago I had a few lessons with one of the most recommended teachers and I felt like I got nothing out of it, all he ever said to me was "good just keep doing what you're doing". I'm quite conscientious about my embouchure and check it for evenness in the mirror and I am making significant progress with my range and playing ability that band mates have commented on. I'm not sure how fast progress with high notes should be...a year ago I was struggling to make an F sharp consistently and now on my high note days I can consistently and clearly hit A's and B flats in pieces. Are there any teachers that you could recommend? I am a little nervous about online lessons as I'm not sure that with my limited equipment (pretty much just webcams and mic that are in my laptop) that a teacher would even be able to see an embouchure issue...I could travel as far as Manchester or Warrington or somewhere of similar distance, I have no car so I would be relying on public transport.

Thank you for taking the time to write me such a detailed reply, I love to play the trombone and it really means a lot to me.

[singingbowlorchestra]

It's a little late to tell you what you should have done, but...

Never practice on fatigued chops. Nothing good comes from doing that.

If you're going to alternate days it should be hard and light, not hard and medium. And I wouldn't take a day completely off.

At this point I would try 2 light days and one medium day, and repeat that pattern, nothing hard. Keep your volume down. Lips slurs, very little articulation. Limit the range both directions, you probably playing both wrong

Lots more I would tell you in a lesson but you said you don't want that.

I couldn't afford regular lessons but there are possibilities of a few one offs perhaps. How much do you charge and where are you based? I'm not sure that online lessons would be appropriate because I have a limited tech setup (only the inbuilt mic and webcam that came with my laptop). I got my Conn 88HO just over a year ago and was previously playing a King 4B with no trigger and when I first got the Conn any of the trigger notes sounded breathy and unreliable in pitch but after a year of work I can play everything from low F to C with clear pitch and good tone. Also my pedal B flat is pretty reliable. I can accurately slur down from Top C to Pedal B flat with good intonation. And most days when I try I can slur from bottom B flat to the Top B flat either in a scale or arpeggio. On a good day I can do the same with a C major scales starting in the staff (two octaves).

I would also say that sometimes I take a complete day off and sometimes I do just half and hour to an hour of light exercise on the trombone. When I take the full day off though the next practice session is always fantastic and has helped me increase my range considerably.

Thanks for the advice.

[MrHCinDE]

Ok, quite a lot to go through threre!

Most importantly, I would 100% recommend even a one off lesson with Doug. I had a one-off lesson with him and it helped a lot.

It sounds like you're doing a lot of the right things and have made good progress already so all credit to you.

Peronally I prefer shorter practice sessions and longer breaks but that's very much an individual preference. To take the extremes of what you mentioned, 5 mins break between 50 min sessions seems verys short, try longer breaks for a couple of days and see how you feel.

I'm originally from Cheshire but moved away more than 10 years ago so don't know who I'd recommend for an in-person lesson these days. It's surprising how well online works, even with a simple sound and camera setup. Teachers who are experienced with online lessons can guide you how to set up the audio settings etc.

Enjoy your trombone playing!

[AndrewMeronek]

40-50 minutes of "warmup" is not right in my experience. The actual warm-up, where blood gets flowing and muscles stretched out/lips vibrating properly only should take 1-2 minutes. What many people consider such a lengthy warmup, I consider technical drills.

As I've gotten older and more experienced, I really like to focus more on the music-making than the technical drills, and only use drills to reinforce physical feats that aren't well-covered in the music I'm practicing. For example, there's no need to really drill triple-tonguing drills if I'm working on a piece of music that has a lot of triple-tonguing in it already - practicing the piece is also practicing the technique.

[singingbowlorchestra]

40-50 minutes of "warmup" is not right in my experience. The actual warm-up, where blood gets flowing and muscles stretched out/lips vibrating properly only should take 1-2 minutes. What many people consider such a lengthy warmup, I consider technical drills.

As I've gotten older and more experienced, I really like to focus more on the music-making than the technical drills, and only use drills to reinforce physical feats that aren't well-covered in the music I'm practicing. For example, there's no need to really drill triple-tonguing drills if I'm working on a piece of music that has a lot of triple-tonguing in it already - practicing the piece is also practicing the technique.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I warm up at the start of the 40-50 minutes and that takes maybe 5 minutes. The other time is spent on technical drills. I appreciate your experience and input though. I have often wondered about the value of drills rather than just playing pieces and using them to practice technique. I believe Chopin didn't believe in drills and did absolutely minimal warmup and then just worked on pieces with students. Thanks for the tips, I love this forum because you can so many different perspectives and they all add up to create a bigger picture.

[Doug Elliott]

For my lessons you don't need anything more than a notebook, tablet, or even just a phone on a music stand. I only use a notebook.
One lesson is very likely all you need. I diagnose and fix problems very quickly. Don't take my word for it, just ask anybody who has had a lesson with me. $150 for an hour. I'm in US Eastern time, 5 hours earlier than the UK.

[greenbean]

If I had this problem, getting a session with Doug is the FIRST thing I would do!

[singingbowlorchestra]

For my lessons you don't need anything more than a notebook, tablet, or even just a phone on a music stand. I only use a notebook.
One lesson is very likely all you need. I diagnose and fix problems very quickly. Don't take my word for it, just ask anybody who has had a lesson with me. $150 for an hour. I'm in US Eastern time, 5 hours earlier than the UK.

Thanks Doug I sent you a message.

[Vegasbound]

If I had this problem, getting a session with Doug is the FIRST thing I would do!

This ^^^^^^^^^^

[sf105]

also, after Doug, I don't know who best to ask, but in Liverpool, you're within striking distance of 3 significant orchestras (RLPO, Halle, BBC Phil). There must be someone who's a decent teacher.

[Geordie]

For my lessons you don't need anything more than a notebook, tablet, or even just a phone on a music stand. I only use a notebook.
One lesson is very likely all you need. I diagnose and fix problems very quickly. Don't take my word for it, just ask anybody who has had a lesson with me. $150 for an hour. I'm in US Eastern time, 5 hours earlier than the UK.

From my home in Manchester (UK) I had an online consult with Doug prior to buying a mouthpiece set up from him that has made a big difference. Picked up a couple of tips that helped. I later had a short lesson that was also a great help. I used a mobile phone at my end. Some of the best money I’ve spent, made a big improvement. Highly recommend.

[robcat2075]

Is there such a thing as Repetitive Strain Injury in the face?

Like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome but without the carpals and without the tunnels?