Dave brought up a good point in one of the other threads about playing loudly, so I thought I'd set up a prompt here that is more constructive.
I am generally a bright player; it took me a long, long time to be able to play in a way that I thought was musical, but playing loudly has never been much of a challenge for me. Playing musically though is something that everyone at least on the surface claims to strive for. Clearly, playing loud and aggressively can be done very well. For example, I love the Dick Nash's playing in the Kenton band and I've had the pleasure of hearing the Pittsburgh Symphony live a few years ago on Bruckner 8 and Pictures at an Exhibition. Their brass section definitely doesn't hold back, but they are also quite capable of turning off when they need to.
So with that in mind, what are things you can do to play loudly while also being musical? After all, we have to blend with a section most of the time. One of the strategies I've used is that, since I know my tendency is to be TOO loud or aggressive is to back off to being quieter and listen more when I'm initially playing with a group and then bring that up gradually, especially if asked. But I also practice at dynamic levels in excess of what I'm anticipating, with drones in particular, so that I'm not being unnecessarily sharp. Anyone else have the opposite difficulty and what types of things do you do to cope?
How to play musically, loudly
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Matt K
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How to play musically, loudly
Within the realm of "loud" there are still different dynamics, legato, articulations, attacks, releases, and everything that defines style. It's good to be in control of all of that, at all dynamics, and that takes practice and recording yourself. Lots of times what you think you're doing doesn't come across to the listener.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Burgerbob
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Re: How to play musically, loudly
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:14 pm Lots of times what you think you're doing doesn't come across to the listener.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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harrisonreed
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Re: How to play musically, loudly
Just musings, but I've found that not having to work hard just to play loudly let's you do things musically within that "loud" zone.
I think I've mentioned before that recently I've been told more and more that the trombone section is not putting out enough sound. I think a lot of it has to do with recordings that are being made today, heck for the last 40 years, even classical recordings. There was physically no way for me to play any louder without it becoming blat city. The issue in the big band was that, on recordings, everyone is miked. That's just the way those recordings are. So the only way to get that volume, compete with an amplified rhythm section, and still be musical is to use a mic. That's IF the conductor wants it to sound exactly like the recording they studied. Otherwise the rhythm section will win every time.
In "classical world", I was getting the same thing. Chicago and New York sound huge, so everyone needs to sound huge. My solution was eventually to just design a new mouthpiece and have it made as a last ditch effort to get more volume without completely overblowing the horn. The new mouthpiece has a much larger and longer throat with a special venturi and a medium cup depth. This raises the base volume and presence of everything, without changing the perceived effort. Even mp playing is more present (trombones, I want that same INTENSITY but play it mp!!!). This has, for now, 100% solved the problem.
In short, equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Conductors are asking for "impossible" stuff because recordings are not realistic representations of the actual playing that was going on. Everything is mixed in post now, regardless of how perfectly the whole ensemble was playing. Orchestra recordings often have spot mics for every section, and the "single Decca Tree" days are long gone. A few geniuses are still pulling that off, but everyone else doing it is the local guy who records the local community orchestra and bands.
Here is an article from Stork that suggests that the typical mp bore we are stuck with from Bach designs after they switched to mass production is probably wrong 75% of the time. Yet the typical Bach sized bores are seen time and time again, even in boutique mp makers, regardless of cup depth. I've also read that Bach had possibly intended the bore to be modified by majority of pro players, which would mean it was intentionally the smallest usable size that would cause the least complaints. Yes, it's from a trumpeters perspective, but it points to a viable and interesting solution for someone who already knows how to play musically, and probably just needs help to play with more volume of sound. Stork is saying that a majority of Bach customizations they do is to the bore and backbore.
https://storkcustom.com/the-backbore-myth/
I think I've mentioned before that recently I've been told more and more that the trombone section is not putting out enough sound. I think a lot of it has to do with recordings that are being made today, heck for the last 40 years, even classical recordings. There was physically no way for me to play any louder without it becoming blat city. The issue in the big band was that, on recordings, everyone is miked. That's just the way those recordings are. So the only way to get that volume, compete with an amplified rhythm section, and still be musical is to use a mic. That's IF the conductor wants it to sound exactly like the recording they studied. Otherwise the rhythm section will win every time.
In "classical world", I was getting the same thing. Chicago and New York sound huge, so everyone needs to sound huge. My solution was eventually to just design a new mouthpiece and have it made as a last ditch effort to get more volume without completely overblowing the horn. The new mouthpiece has a much larger and longer throat with a special venturi and a medium cup depth. This raises the base volume and presence of everything, without changing the perceived effort. Even mp playing is more present (trombones, I want that same INTENSITY but play it mp!!!). This has, for now, 100% solved the problem.
In short, equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Conductors are asking for "impossible" stuff because recordings are not realistic representations of the actual playing that was going on. Everything is mixed in post now, regardless of how perfectly the whole ensemble was playing. Orchestra recordings often have spot mics for every section, and the "single Decca Tree" days are long gone. A few geniuses are still pulling that off, but everyone else doing it is the local guy who records the local community orchestra and bands.
Here is an article from Stork that suggests that the typical mp bore we are stuck with from Bach designs after they switched to mass production is probably wrong 75% of the time. Yet the typical Bach sized bores are seen time and time again, even in boutique mp makers, regardless of cup depth. I've also read that Bach had possibly intended the bore to be modified by majority of pro players, which would mean it was intentionally the smallest usable size that would cause the least complaints. Yes, it's from a trumpeters perspective, but it points to a viable and interesting solution for someone who already knows how to play musically, and probably just needs help to play with more volume of sound. Stork is saying that a majority of Bach customizations they do is to the bore and backbore.
https://storkcustom.com/the-backbore-myth/