Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

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jazzman
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Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by jazzman »

I need to make concert programs for a medium sized community orchestra. We have three trombonists and one tuba player. I want to include the tuba player in every program. The third trombonist is sometime unavailable and I would like to know if I could have the tuba player play the third trombone part.
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BGuttman
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by BGuttman »

He may have to take some notes down an octave, but yes. Then again, a good tuba player may have the range to play a 3rd trombone part even when it goes relatively high.
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jazzman
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by jazzman »

Are there any translation issues when a tuba plays a bass trombone part? Are all trombones and tubas in b flat?
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BGuttman
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by BGuttman »

Bass clef parts are writen in concert pitch (the note you see is the note you should play). String bass parts are written an octave lower, but all oher bass clef parts (and tenor and alto clef as well) are written in true pitch so what kind of instrument is playing is unimportant.

Having played a fair amount of 3rd trombone parts in my career, as well as tuba, the big issue is tha sometimes the 3rd trombone part goes a bit high for most tuba players. Also need to watch out for some Russian music which has the 3rd trombone (as well as 1st and 2nd) in alto clef -- with a LOAD of ledger lines down.

One big excepion is Brass Band music (English Brass Band) where he 1st and 2nd trombone parts are in transposing treble Bb, the bass trombone is in non-transposing bass clef, and the tuba is in transposing treble clef. A tuba expecting a treble clef part and given a Brass Band 3rd (bass) trombone part will have problems reading it.
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SimmonsTrombone
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by SimmonsTrombone »

If you’re talking about normal band music, yes. As Bruce said all bass clef music is written in concert pitch and the tuba player should be able to play it. I frequently practice 3rd/bass trombone parts and exercises on my tuba. Any reasonably experienced tuba player should be able to play high parts down an octave maybe needing a little practice.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by sungfw »

Play the notes, yes; play with the appropriate timbre and clarity to match the rest of the trombone section, not so much.

In a community orchestra/band setting, I'd try and find a sub first, and only hand the part to the tuba player as a last resort.
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BGuttman
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by BGuttman »

sungfw wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:07 pm Play the notes, yes; play with the appropriate timbre and clarity to match the rest of the trombone section, not so much.

In a community orchestra/band setting, I'd try and find a sub first, and only hand the part to the tuba player as a last resort.
In a community orchestra the LAST thing I'd do is call a sub for a regular player. Community orchestras are inended to be places to play and also a social outlet. If you start calling in pros to replace regular members you get the reputation of being '"snooty". I don't care if you are having cellos play string bass parts because you have no string bass or trombones playing cello or bassoon parts (I've done both). The idea is to have the part covered, and if there is a player with no part who can cover it, that's how the game is played.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by hyperbolica »

Isn't it an option to use other amateurs as subs? That's how it works where I play. We frequently use non-paid subs. I would suggest finding another bone player. Tuba is not really an appropriate replacement for a trombone.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by JohnL »

If I read the original post correctly, it’s not so much about covering the third trombone part as it is a matter of giving the tuba player something to do on every program. It’s not uncommon for there to be three trombone parts and no tuba part. Sounds like the OP is looking to turn two problems (unavailable third trombonist and a tubist at loose ends) into one solution.

It might just work for a community orchestra. Depends on whether the tubist can handle the range and whether the boss is satisfied with the sound.

One thing - be careful about the tuba playing parts an octave down. Only do so when necessary, and always be aware of what’s going on in the other low voices. Tinkering with voicing like that can sometimes cause trouble.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by sungfw »

BGuttman wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:51 pm
sungfw wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:07 pm Play the notes, yes; play with the appropriate timbre and clarity to match the rest of the trombone section, not so much.

In a community orchestra/band setting, I'd try and find a sub first, and only hand the part to the tuba player as a last resort.
In a community orchestra the LAST thing I'd do is call a sub for a regular player. Community orchestras are inended to be places to play and also a social outlet. If you start calling in pros to replace regular members you get the reputation of being '"snooty". I don't care if you are having cellos play string bass parts because you have no string bass or trombones playing cello or bassoon parts (I've done both). The idea is to have the part covered, and if there is a player with no part who can cover it, that's how the game is played.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by tubagirl »

I'm primarily a tuba player and I've played a few trombone parts on tuba. It's great that you're trying to give the tuba something to do. Even if their high range is good, I would recommend having them take everything from the 3rd bone part down an octave. They should be able to read the part as is without needing it transposed down, and having them play it down will round out the sound and sound more natural and fuller on their instrument.
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JohnL
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by JohnL »

tubagirl wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:15 am I'm primarily a tuba player and I've played a few trombone parts on tuba. It's great that you're trying to give the tuba something to do. Even if their high range is good, I would recommend having them take everything from the 3rd bone part down an octave. They should be able to read the part as is without needing it transposed down, and having them play it down will round out the sound and sound more natural and fuller on their instrument.
It puts the part in a better range for the tuba, but you're messing with the chord structure. Sometimes it'll "round out the sound" and sometimes it'll be more like "What the heck is that?"
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by afugate »

JohnL wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:43 pm
tubagirl wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:15 am I'm primarily a tuba player and I've played a few trombone parts on tuba. It's great that you're trying to give the tuba something to do. Even if their high range is good, I would recommend having them take everything from the 3rd bone part down an octave. They should be able to read the part as is without needing it transposed down, and having them play it down will round out the sound and sound more natural and fuller on their instrument.
It puts the part in a better range for the tuba, but you're messing with the chord structure. Sometimes it'll "round out the sound" and sometimes it'll be more like "What the heck is that?"
Yep. Probably okay if the 3rd bone is playing roots or fifths. But any other notes? That will definitely wreak havoc with the chord structure.

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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

In terms of range, the more appropriate tuba-like instrument to cover a 3rd bone would be a euphonium. But, often, a piece of music will have very similar roles between the bass trombone and the tuba - I'm thinking marches and other dances with prominent bass notes on downbeats. In those cases, the particular octave shouldn't matter too much. A Holst suite, that's different.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by sterb225 »

Can vs. should is the question ... just because something is possible does not mean it's a good idea. Timbre of the bass trombone vs the tuba is a major mismatch. I like to say that the bass trombone really can shape the overall sound of the 'bone section (dare I say entire brass section) at key moments in ways not possible with any of the other voices.
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Kingfan
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by Kingfan »

I used my bass 'bone to cover tuba parts in a brass quintet on occasion. Can't see any reason it can't be done in reverse. Being you want to keep the tubist busy and fill a hole in a community group, I say go for it and see how it works. What do you have to lose?
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by jthomas105 »

Give the tuba player a Bari sax part change to bass clef and give it the same key signature as the trombone parts and watch for accidentals. The sax part accidental may not follow the trombone key signature. However, which way the sax part accidental changes 1/2 step up or down from the original key signature is how the new tuba part will change. For example a Bari sax part may change a F# to a F natural and the tuba part would go up 1/2 step depending on the new tuba key signature if it is Db up to D natural, if it is D up to D#.
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Re: Can a tuba player play a third trombone part?

Post by JohnL »

jthomas105 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 pm Give the tuba player a Bari sax part change to bass clef and give it the same key signature as the trombone parts and watch for accidentals. The sax part accidental may not follow the trombone key signature. However, which way the sax part accidental changes 1/2 step up or down from the original key signature is how the new tuba part will change. For example a Bari sax part may change a F# to a F natural and the tuba part would go up 1/2 step depending on the new tuba key signature if it is Db up to D natural, if it is D up to D#.
Except the OP was asking about a community orchestra. Not many bari sax parts. Also, the OP isn't just looking to keep the tubist busy, he's also trying to have the third trombone part covered when that person is absent.
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