Double Pedals

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toofar
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Double Pedals

Post by toofar » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:26 pm

How can I play a double pedal on a straight tenor trombone (no triggers)? I can currently false tone down to a pedal b natural but I cannot quite feel a definite partial below it. :(
hOw...? :amazed:
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Burgerbob
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Burgerbob » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:30 pm

2nd position should be a double pedal Bb, so on and so forth.
toofar
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by toofar » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:05 am

Do you know if I should expect to feel a definite partial down there? Because I know the partials keep getting further apart the lower you go... so is it meant to be false toned?
And would a larger mouthpiece help a lot? I'm currently playing on a Blessing 11C.
Thanks for the help!
hOw...? :amazed:
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Burgerbob
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:19 am

The double pedals (and anything past pedal E on a straight horn) are all false tones.

2nd position Bb doesn't really "lock," it's just the most resonant place for that false tone.
toofar
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by toofar » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:26 pm

Cool thanks! Just curious, what's the next partial down then?
hOw...? :amazed:
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Burgerbob
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Not sure there is one! Some people can play an octave below that, but we are getting far into the range that is not very hear-able!
Basbasun
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Basbasun » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:43 am

The doubble pedal is really locking in if you find it, sometimes the tripple pedal is mentioned, they are not of any musically use like the doubble pedal (I have used doubble pedal Bb in a piece written by Sven-David Sandström). The tripple pedal Bb can be (weak) find in third position. There are some strange factitious tones in horns, but the doubble pedal and "false positions" one position lower are the ones who is most slotting. Sometimes I do include tripple pedals in my practise.
Mikebmiller
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Mikebmiller » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:37 am

Would someone explain this whole "false tone" thing? I have read about it for years on here and the old TTF, but still have no idea how to play one.
timothy42b
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by timothy42b » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:52 am

Any system will respond to the frequencies you input. Trombones don't add any frequencies, they just amplify your buzz. Whatever it is.

Fortunately or unfortunately, they also tend to stabilize your buzz at the resonant frequency of that tubing length. So it's really hard both physically and psychologically (an unexplained factor) to buzz very far away from the note that would sound for that position. But it can be done. It just doesn't usually sound good unless your chops are unusually strong. It also depends a little on how tightly the horn "slots." If you can do pitch bends you can eventually play false tones.

False tones in the trigger range for many people sound better if played one position down from the note an octave above. For example, Eb in the staff would be 3rd; Eb below the staff with no trigger would be somewhere around 4th. As I understand it, the reason is that there is no resonance at the fundamental, but you get some contribution from higher overtones.

Some tubas and euphs also have a very clear resonance in the "open = low Eb" series. I don't think trombones ever do that, at least I haven't run into one.
Mikebmiller
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Mikebmiller » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:06 am

Thanks. I guess if I were a pro, I would worry about learning to play these, but I don't really see the point for what I need to do.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by LeTromboniste » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:13 pm

toofar wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:26 pm
Cool thanks! Just curious, what's the next partial down then?
There is none, the pedal note is the fundamental of whatever length of tubing your blowing into, which is by definition the lowest note that can create a standing wave in that length of tubing.

Of course you can buzz lower notes and some pitches may get *some* resonance going, from the horn reacting to the overtones of the pitch you're buzzing, and you can even make those notes sound good with practice (and some horns like those false tones better than others), but it's not like having another partial. You can never get the same kind of resonance you get from playing notes that are really on the instrument.
Maximilien Brisson
blast
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by blast » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:48 am

Mikebmiller wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:06 am
Thanks. I guess if I were a pro, I would worry about learning to play these, but I don't really see the point for what I need to do.
Even if you were a pro, you wouldn't need to worry about playing those notes.... never been asked for one in over 40 years. There seems to be confusion between double pedals and false notes . Whilst double pedals are indeed false notes, that term is usually reserved for the notes you would normally play on the F valve, played on the Bb trombone. Double pedals are one octave below a pedal note, starting at BBb. I play them in the same position as regular pedals, but that's just me.
Triple pedals..... ha ha... really ? That would be lower than a Harley at tickover.

Chris
Basbasun
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Basbasun » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:46 am

There are thousands of pro tromboneists who dont ever play false tones or doubble pedals, actually those are not needed to play good trombone.
I use them, for a good reason I can tell you, many old tromboneist used them.
They have been used for hundreds of years.
For players that buzz in the mouthpiece they are no harder the to buzz the tones in the mouthpiece, and place the slide in the right position, so if I want to play a false tone low C under the staff, I can buzz the tone in the mpc, place the slide i 7th position and play. It can be played just as strong as using the F attachemnet. Some players make to much embouchure distorsion to get them, and end up with a fuzzy sound that is not useful in music. Typically they end up with positions that does not give the best resonance. Tip, if you can play a low fake D in 4th position, keep tone and move the slide to 5th position, keep blowing the D will come with much better tone. If you have chops to play a fake doubble pedal in 1st, keep blowin and move to 2nd pos, and listen. Or just forget it all.
harrisonreed
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:23 am

Double pedal? Why?

You can play that pitch on a tuba or contra, but why would you want to play an octave lower than a pedal Bb on a straight tenor with an 11C? It won't sound good no matter what you do.
baileyman
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by baileyman » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:39 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:23 am
Double pedal? Why?

You can play that pitch on a tuba or contra, but why would you want to play an octave lower than a pedal Bb on a straight tenor with an 11C? It won't sound good no matter what you do.
"Because it's there"?
harrisonreed
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:45 am

True. Except not true, because it's not there. False tones are just that - false.

Tim mentioned the trombone as being a megaphone for the buzz. On false tones, that is true. That's why they sound bad. If a brass instrument is just a megaphone for the buzz, let's get rid of valves and slides.

In any case, good luck getting any partials to slot below the 1st partial Bb. I don't think they will. It's called 1st partial for a reason.
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Savio
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Savio » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:58 pm

toofar wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:26 pm
How can I play a double pedal on a straight tenor trombone (no triggers)? I can currently false tone down to a pedal b natural but I cannot quite feel a definite partial below it. :(
toofar wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:05 am
Do you know if I should expect to feel a definite partial down there? Because I know the partials keep getting further apart the lower you go... so is it meant to be false toned?
And would a larger mouthpiece help a lot? I'm currently playing on a Blessing 11C.
Thanks for the help!
Are you sure you are talking about the right octave or register? Double or triple pedals notes have no use in a bass trombonists daily life, and certainly not in a tenor players reportoir. I believe it sounds like a baby pludder the lips together or like Chris mention; An old Harley Davidson with asthma problems... :biggrin:

Anyway, why are you so interested in double and triple notes?

Leif
baileyman
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by baileyman » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:45 am
True. Except not true, because it's not there. False tones are just that - false.
...
"False" may be a propaganda term.

There is something happening, because horns resonate better at some positions for some "false" pitches better than others. When Sam Burtis flaps a triple pedal into his mouthpiece it has that resonant character, a vigorous metronomic flap that sure seems to indicate the horn may be regulating it through acoustic feedback.

Or it could be a parlor trick.
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BGuttman
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by BGuttman » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:04 pm

As you are trying to achieve these notes, bear in mind that human hearing ranges from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz (an average). If you are really curious, an audiologist can test your actual range (in my case it tops off somewhere around 8,000 Hz because I'm older and my ears aren't as sensitive as they used to be.

The A 3 lines above the bass staff is 440 Hz.
The A on top of the bass staff is 220 Hz.
The A on the bottom space of the bass staff is 110 Hz.
Pedal A is 55 Hz. Now we are beginning to get to the bottom of the hearing range.
"Double Pedal" A is 27.5 Hz. This is what a BBb tuba player would call "Pedal A".
"Triple Pedal" A would be 13.75 Hz. I doubt you could hear that, although you could hear the overtones.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Basbasun
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by Basbasun » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:25 am

What is the use of tripple pedals?
Absolutely non.
Except something to talk about.
Are they there?
Who knows? I dont think there is any real proof.
So, why? Is it good for the embouchure? I do not know.

"As you are trying to achieve these notes, bear in mind that human hearing ranges from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz (an average). If you are really curious, an audiologist can test your actual range (in my case it tops off somewhere around 8,000 Hz because I'm older and my ears aren't as sensitive as they used to be."
When the audiologist test your ears, you are listen to sinus tones in earphones. You do not hear sinus tones as low the contrabass lowest octav, because there is no overtones to guid your brain. When listen to a modern synthesizer playing as low as 12Hz and even lowe you hear it loud and clear.
timothy42b
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Re: Double Pedals

Post by timothy42b » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:03 am

Basbasun wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:25 am
When the audiologist test your ears, you are listen to sinus tones in earphones. You do not hear sinus tones as low the contrabass lowest octav, because there is no overtones to guid your brain. When listen to a modern synthesizer playing as low as 12Hz and even lowe you hear it loud and clear.
Yes. And if you completely filter out the fundamental in that range, but leave the overtones in, your ear and brain will still hear the fundamental.
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