Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

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Terka
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Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

Hello,

Would you think that removing old lacquer on a old and valuable horn will make it lose some of his value, as the original work on the horn is altered?

To keep the value of the horn, Is it better to just let the horn tarnish without thinking of the aspect ?

Thanks !!
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Burgerbob
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Burgerbob »

Depends on the state of the lacquer, but it's best to let the next person decide what they want to do with the finish if you're worried about the money you'll get.
hyperbolica
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by hyperbolica »

The thing about lacquer is that everyone says it doesn't matter, but won't buy a horn without it. Theoretically it doesn't matter but in practice it does. Don't remove the lacquer unless that's what you want and you're keeping it.
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

Agree !

But does the aesthetic of a tarnished lacquer from original craft gives more value than a new finish to make it more a "looker" ?
Hope it make sense !!

Thx
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

hyperbolica wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:59 pm The thing about lacquer is that everyone says it doesn't matter, but won't buy a horn without it. Theoretically it doesn't matter but in practice it does. Don't remove the lacquer unless that's what you want and you're keeping it.
I noticed it !
jorymil
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by jorymil »

If you'd like some more concrete advice, tell us what kind of horn this is, and attach some pictures of it. I play a couple of unlacquered Kings, but I don't intend to delacquer my basses, for example.
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elmsandr
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by elmsandr »

Terka wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:29 pm Agree !

But does the aesthetic of a tarnished lacquer from original craft gives more value than a new finish to make it more a "looker" ?
Hope it make sense !!

Thx
Lacquer has to be REALLY bad to make removing it add to the value. Re-finishing, if not done by the person the buyer thinks is best, will not add to the value.

Cheers,
Andy
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

Thank you Andy!
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SlidemanSailor
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by SlidemanSailor »

Image

As delivered from the Salvation Army thrift store in 2013, the cheap 1958 Conn 6H was not just ugly, neither the hand slide nor tuning slide actually slid.

It was really not much of a decision to finish removing the remaining lacquer.

Somewhat surprisingly, I have not messed with the brass in the nine years since I worked it over with Brasso to begin with. It does not seem to tarnish much at all.

Image
Intermediate 3rd trombone, always looking for people to play with in the lower-left-corner Montana wilderness.
Mostly: 2006 Conn 88HCL 525/547 bore, rose bell and 1958 Conn 6H
rarely: 1976 Yamaha YSL 354 and ex-middle-school Yamaha euphonium
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Matt K
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Matt K »

Something to bear in mind is that not all lacquer is created equal. Some processes are now illegal that were once standard practice. So if you remove, you might not be able to "go back". This applies to King instruments in particular with that orangish stuff from the.. 60/70s(?) for sure. I hate the stuff personally but I have heard of people specifically looking for that vintage lacquer. I typically remove lacquer and leave it off, personally.
CharlieB
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by CharlieB »

Terka wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm Hello,
Would you think that removing old lacquer on a old and valuable horn will make it lose some of his value, as the original work on the horn is altered?
To keep the value of the horn, Is it better to just let the horn tarnish without thinking of the aspect ?
Thanks !!
There are a few trombones that have a special provenance for varied reasons, such as being formerly owned by a famous trombonist. Those horns should be maintained in as close as possible to original condition.
"Old and valuable horn ?" Maybe. Can you post pictures and details about the horn? There are some pretty knowledgeable trombone guys here.
In general, unless you have a very special horn, it will not be devalued by a new lacquer job. Most buyers prefer good lacquer, some prefer no lacquer at all, and almost nobody prefers grungy lacquer.
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BGuttman
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by BGuttman »

Just remember that the increase in value is less than the cost of the lacquer job. You won't be able to recoup your investment. Don't relacquer if you are just planning to sell.
Bruce Guttman
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Chatname
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Chatname »

BGuttman wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:21 am Just remember that the increase in value is less than the cost of the lacquer job. You won't be able to recoup your investment. Don't relacquer if you are just planning to sell.
Just out of curiosity: how much approximately would a relaquer of a straight horn cost?
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Matt K
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Matt K »

Almost all the cost is in labor so it entirely depends on how long it takes to clean up. The high side would be a few hundred iirc
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elmsandr
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by elmsandr »

Chatname wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:12 am
BGuttman wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:21 am Just remember that the increase in value is less than the cost of the lacquer job. You won't be able to recoup your investment. Don't relacquer if you are just planning to sell.
Just out of curiosity: how much approximately would a relaquer of a straight horn cost?
Not much if you do a bad job.

Quite a bit if you have to do a lot of careful restoration and try to preserve engraving.

Having any random repair person strip, buff, and lacquer a vintage horn could make it more appealing; or it could completely decimate the value of the horn.

Buff away the detail on a Stenberg Conn? Value gone.

Strip the lacquer carefully on one without buffing... maybe no change.

Cheers,
Andy
mcphatty00
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by mcphatty00 »

I never want to overhaul a horn because of the effect of buffing. I mean, yeah, it's gonna change the value, but also the sound.
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SlidemanSailor
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by SlidemanSailor »

Sometimes players want the lighter, thinner horns and work or hire labor to sand, buff, polish the brass for brighter sound ... regardless of aesthetics.
Intermediate 3rd trombone, always looking for people to play with in the lower-left-corner Montana wilderness.
Mostly: 2006 Conn 88HCL 525/547 bore, rose bell and 1958 Conn 6H
rarely: 1976 Yamaha YSL 354 and ex-middle-school Yamaha euphonium
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Matt K
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Matt K »

Typically, a lighter bell is accomplished by getting a bell with a thinner gauge. Although Edwards offers a “double buffed” bell that they describe as an in between size. Doing something like that to a Mt Vernon 50 or Elkhart 88 would likely destroy the engraving and whatever characteristics people like about that horn. Would usually be advisable to sell that and get something that is made lighter. Just the bell off of a Mt Vernon 50 alone is probably going to fetch you a good portion of a replacement horn.

Not vintage is a bit of a different calculus but it still might be cheaper/easier to swap for a bell that has the gauge you want.
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

CharlieB wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:19 pm
Terka wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm Hello,
Would you think that removing old lacquer on a old and valuable horn will make it lose some of his value, as the original work on the horn is altered?
To keep the value of the horn, Is it better to just let the horn tarnish without thinking of the aspect ?
Thanks !!
There are a few trombones that have a special provenance for varied reasons, such as being formerly owned by a famous trombonist. Those horns should be maintained in as close as possible to original condition.
"Old and valuable horn ?" Maybe. Can you post pictures and details about the horn? There are some pretty knowledgeable trombone guys here.
In general, unless you have a very special horn, it will not be devalued by a new lacquer job. Most buyers prefer good lacquer, some prefer no lacquer at all, and almost nobody prefers grungy lacquer.
Thanks Charlie!

I actually dont have a correct photo of the horn :) ...it is a Custom Bass made by Larry Minick in 1990...62H and 73H valves (bored out to 595) Berrylium Bronze Bell spun by Larry, Minick slide and leadpipe.
Laquer on the bell is almost all gone...this horn is a piece of art and fantastic...I was considering NOT doing any aesthetic work on it as to preserve its character!
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

Thank you all !!
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greenbean
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by greenbean »

I would definitely leave it. And we will be awaiting photos!... :amazed:



(And perhaps a mod could move this thread. :hi: )
imsevimse
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by imsevimse »

BGuttman wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:21 am Just remember that the increase in value is less than the cost of the lacquer job. You won't be able to recoup your investment. Don't relacquer if you are just planning to sell.
Yes, this is absolutely true in my experience. One of my friends bought a horn cheap and had it undergo a restoration. He got his money back precisely because the cost of restoration was way more than what he originally payed for the horn. I think he was lucky to find a buyer for such an old horn even though it was perfectly restored. I played it before and after. It played exactly the same but was much more expensive. Personally I had not payed that high price but I might have considered it before restore to the ower cost. I think to remove the lacquer could make a cheap horn look more attractive and it could mean the difference if you will be able to sell or not. Personally I do not care because I value the horn on how it plays but many people hear with their eyes.

I would not do anything to an old Conn 62h with 73h valves. They who want those horns do not mind if they look bad.

/Tom
Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

Here is 2 pics of the horn (sorry about the magnificent backgound!) :





As you see the lacquer is off on almost all the Horn, with a very nice tarnish...I in fact love just letting the horn age like good wine!

My post was for pure curiosity and I thank you all !!!!
Posaunus
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Posaunus »

Terka,
Play the trombone. Enjoy its sound, its heritage, its patina, its appearance.
Care for it. Clean it thoroughly and put it away dry.
Have a tech maintain it when needed.
Be grateful, and love it forever.
OneTon
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by OneTon »

The good horns get played a lot and that’s what they look like. Enjoy it.
Richard Smith
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Terka
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Re: Removing laquer on vintage horn to keep its value ?

Post by Terka »

I will :) !!!!
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