Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post Reply
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

I have renewed my membership to the 1 1/2G club.

I let my membership lapse in about 2003 at university, when I shelved my Schilke 58 in favour of a 59, in consultation with my teacher, for a few reasons. At the time, I felt like I was trying to play with a very large oral cavity in order to make the sound larger, warmer, which had some success, but made flexibility very difficult. I reasoned that a larger mouthpiece would enable me to play with a smaller oral cavity (ie jaw not as low), and in turn, I would regain some flexibility and comfort on the Bach 50 w/thayers I was playing at the time. I believe this was successful.

Since then, I’ve ran the gamut of mouthpieces, all the way up the 60 size, and back to the 59, with everything in between. You name the brand; I’ve probably played it. Just ask, it’s probably for sale.

Since about the middle of last year, my playing concepts have shifted. I started to look to make my playing less complex, with less ‘tricks’ to produce my sound. I’ve started playing more and more tenor, and have had to find different ways to make the tenor work. When I get in trouble on my Edwards bass, I tend to just throw a heap of air at the problem, and it clears up. Not so on either of my tenors. I’ve had to physically play notes differently, not be so broad and open in the low range, and a far more compact embouchure setting in the upper register. This has started to creep into my bass playing, with positive effect.

I scaled back my bass equipment a little, moving from 59+ sized (my favourite being a Greg Black 1.25GM), to my old Schilke 59, to eventually a Hammond 20BL, which was a little more compact than my 59, but much richer in sound. I was pretty happy for 6 months or so.

A few weeks back, I started recording myself pretty heavily with my Zoom H2 (buy one, it’s changed my life), and was not terribly pleased with the results. Very bland sound. Big, yes, dark, yes, compact, yes, but not terribly interesting. Hmm.

So out came the draw of mouthpiece. I played and recorded on a few. My old Greg Black 1.25GM, Schilke 59, Stork 1.25. Eh, I still preferred the Hammond, but it wasn’t really doing it for me.

What the hey, I’ll stick in that Faxx 1.5G.

And, to my displeasure, I liked it.

I didn’t want to like it. I haven’t played a mouthpiece that size for a long time, but it worked far better than I remembered. Funny how years of practice will do that.

I remember having to make large shifts with my jaw to get the sound I wanted from  Image Image on down. Nope, not anymore.

I remember the sound being thinner, smaller. Not there this time, either.

SO I’ve been beavering away on this piece for nearly 2 weeks, and am still enjoying the results. I still sound like me, but with a little more compactness, a little more life and energy to the sound. I don’t believe it sounds any smaller than the 59-sized equipment I was using. I’m still having a few issues moving between some registers, where the chops are probably remembering habits from the larger equipment, but it’s close, and getting better.

And I’m enjoying practice for the first time in probably 6 months or so.

If I had one concern, it would be the dynamic curve on this piece. Being largely an orchestral bass trombonist who subs in American-style orchestras here in Australia (the person I largely sub for plays a Bach 50 w/Schilke 60), I’m a little concerned that my sound may get too bright too early on this piece, but time will tell. I’ll go play for a few people whose ears I trust, and see what they think. I won’t tell them about the equipment change. Too much prejudice against the 1.5G in this town, sadly. Maybe I can rectify that.

But I’m loving the sound, the ease of tone production, and most importantly, how much fun I’m having!

So, I haven’t quite torn up the club-59 membership, yet, but I haven’t looked at it for a few weeks. I have a Greg Black 1.5GM on the way, should be here soon, which I can’t wait to get my hands on, considering how much I loved his larger pieces.

Andrew (who can’t quite believe he’s playing a $30 mouthpiece)

ttf_Gabe Langfur
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Gabe Langfur »

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Mar 25, 2008, 07:05PMSince about the middle of last year, my playing concepts have shifted. I started to look to make my playing less complex, with less ‘tricks’ to produce my sound. I’ve started playing more and more tenor, and have had to find different ways to make the tenor work. When I get in trouble on my Edwards bass, I tend to just throw a heap of air at the problem, and it clears up. Not so on either of my tenors. I’ve had to physically play notes differently, not be so broad and open in the low range, and a far more compact embouchure setting in the upper register. This has started to creep into my bass playing, with positive effect.

Hmmm...this strikes me as interesting.

"Throwing a heap of air at the problem" has never really worked for me on bass trombone. I've certainly tried - it seems like such a simple, elegant solution. But I've always needed to do something more nuanced than that. I just can't force the low register. I can't do it now, and I've never been able to do it.

At the same time, I've pretty much always been a player who could make the high register happen. For whatever reason, I can almost always muscle out high notes as long as I don't need to do anything delicate. Real control, of course, requires a more sophisticated approach, which I have learned to do. But I can still force it if I need to. 

As Chris can attest, I make a very focused sound on a big mouthpiece - sometimes even too focused. And since I've switched to it from a more moderate size (I played 59-ish mouthpieces for years) I've been able to improve pretty much every aspect of my playing. I have to work a little harder for consistent high range, but that's easy for me - I get results quickly. Low range comes much more slowly for me.

Is my embouchure style more suited to a big mouthpiece than a small one? Is Andrew's more suited to a small mouthpiece?


ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

Gabe, it sounds like we are indeed the opposite of one another.

Upper register has never been my strong suit, and I'm beginning to think it never will be. It functions, sure, but it ain't easy, and will kick my butt if I haven't been working up there consistently. It has been very slowly improving for a decade now, but sometimes it feels glacially slow...

Low register is very different. It's always sort of functioned. I think this is what drew me to the bass trombone in high school. I got things to work down there in a hurry.

I suppose if you want to talk 'finesse' versus 'muscle', I tend towards the muscling camp. But in regards to this mouthpiece, I sure don't feel like I'm muscling the low register. I'm finding it just works, but like I said, it's never really been an issue for me. Perhaps I'll start a 'finesse versus muscle' topic elsewhere.

I'm beginning to think, on the bass at least, that I may well be suited to smaller rims. Perhaps this is where Doug Elliott will chime in.

Andrew
ttf_EarlNeedham
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EarlNeedham »

I'm not Doug, but I think I may have an idea of what we're seeing here.  Maybe I do.

Is the desire toward huge mouthpieces related to the trend to darker sounds?  Well, of course it is, but which is the cause, and which is the effect?  Or maybe each has a bit of both cause AND effect.

There are many good Bass Trombone players today, but here's where I'm headed -- I think George Roberts is the GOLD STANDARD for the Bass Trombone sound, and like Chris Stearn said, when discussing the Elkhart 60 & 62 --

Quote from: blast on Nov 09, 2006, 03:35PMWhen did we stop trying to sound like George Roberts ??
A lot of people here are still trying.... me included.
That is still the sound in my head.

If the world is moving on, I'm happy to stay with George.

Chris Stearn.

And am I mistaken?  Doesn't Mr. Roberts still play a 1 1/2G-sized mouthpiece?  Either a Bach, or a Marcinkiwicz, or something else in that same size range?  We might all be missing a lesson there.

Earl

ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

George plays a thing that is a little larger these days... but he is retired and not really blowing. I remember that he loved the Rath 1 1/2W when he tried it in New Orleans.
Gabe is one of the very few people who make that classic sound on large equipment... to me he sounds just like his old teacher, Ray Premru.
It seems to me that most people make a far more interesting sound on the smaller mouthpieces... more complex in terms of overtones and richer in character.
To me the bigger= darker idea just does not hold up for most players... bigger often = duller, spreading and unfocused... not darker.
If you cannot find a Mt Vernon Bach 1 1/2G then Greg Black makes a pretty fine version that will do the job for most people.
Funny how the 1 1/2G seems easier when you come back to it after years on the big stuff.
Chris Stearn.
ttf_second.chance
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_second.chance »

George plays on the Kanstul GR which is really still a 1.5 G a bit like the 1.5GM but without the air sucking characteristics. Its a lot like the old Bach 1.5 and the occassional one today if you can test 50 to get one! Its what I am using at the moment, and yes Chris its a lot like the Rath George tried... Maybe coming back after a bucket is a bit like training with heavy boots on and then putting your trainers on one day - you run effortlessly (or so it seems!) perhaps it builds up muscle away from your main embouchure that gives a 'foundation' or a more solid surround to the working muscles?... Doug
ttf_slidejj
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slidejj »

A lot of wisdom in this thread and I'm indebted to all of you.  This thread along with PM's to both Chris Stearn and Doug Elliot helped me realize that I'm one that needs to play smaller rim sizes on both bass and tenor.  So it's 1.5 and 6.5 rim diameters for me once again.  In each case playing the smaller rim seems effortless after playing larger ones and every now and then when I don't play one for awhile, mostly tenor, it takes a lot less time to get back into shape than before.
ttf_Carl Vogel
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Carl Vogel »

HERE'S A QUESTION: Image

When playing my 1.5G FAXX, I feel like the actual rim is too narrow for my narrow lips.

Is there a similar playing mouthpiece that has a slightly wider rim? I am fine with the other playing characteristics of the mouthpiece.  I sheepishly admit, I do not practice everyday.

thanks!!
 Image
ttf_Dan H.
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Dan H. »

Perhaps you would like the Rath 1.5W. It's allegedly a more efficient, easier blowing 1.5 sized piece with a wider rim.
ttf_EarlNeedham
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EarlNeedham »

Quote from: blast on Mar 26, 2008, 12:56AMGeorge plays a thing that is a little larger these days... but he is retired and not really blowing.
 Image Image Image

Is he no longer playing at Kafeens?  (Hope I spelled that right...)
ttf_slideorama
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slideorama »

Quote from: Carl Vogel on Mar 27, 2008, 09:43AMHERE'S A QUESTION: Image

When playing my 1.5G FAXX, I feel like the actual rim is too narrow for my narrow lips.

Is there a similar playing mouthpiece that has a slightly wider rim? I am fine with the other playing characteristics of the mouthpiece.  I sheepishly admit, I do not practice everyday.

thanks!!
 Image

I'm digging a gold-plated Griego 2 Deco at the moment.
No complaints - actually, it is superb.

This thread has opened my eyes and ears as well. This past year I've systematically down-sized from the Schilke 60 world (mainly through Christan Griego's pieces, with some other flavors of the month thrown in) while always comparing them to an average Bach 1.5G I stumbled upon.

This and discussions like this have really helped me find a sound that I can make work - each mouthpiece is a compromise - and even led me to change horns and practice regimes.

While we can all agree George Roberts "tone", in general, is an excellent example, his Style is what made him Mr. Bass Trombone. Any horn, any mouthpiece. Too bad you can't have that delivered FedEX.
ttf_second.chance
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_second.chance »

George Gave the once a month on a Sunday morning up about a year ago now - still plays for himself though and when I went to see Ziggy Kanstul back in June last year George had been in the week before to get a modification on his horn done, so he's still playing!.. Steve Ferguson is the one to ask though, he still keeps in touch... Doug
ttf_EarlNeedham
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EarlNeedham »

 Image Image Image Image Image

Nine years ago, I retired from the Air Force, and the next day headed for San Diego with the intent of hearing Mr. Roberts.  When I got as far as Tucson, my wife called me, claimed she didn't know I was serious about going out there, and I had to turn around and come back to Clovis.  That was the second saddest day since I retired from the Air Force -- today, reading the above is the saddest.
ttf_Carl Vogel
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Carl Vogel »

Thanks for the replies.  The Griego and the Rath both seem to have promise.

thanks!
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Carl Vogel on Mar 28, 2008, 09:42AMThanks for the replies.  The Griego and the Rath both seem to have promise.

thanks!
The Griego has a comfortable rim of quite normal width, whilst the Rath has a wider rim which is a scaled up version of a Bach 4G rim. Doug Elliott also makes a nice version... the 108W with the I cup and I8 shank.
Chris Stearn.
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

So after spending the last few weeks on a Faxx 1.5G, and the last few days on a Greg Black 1.5GM, I can't say I'm missing the 1.25-sized pieces I had been playing.

One thing I didn't expect when adjusting to this sized piece (though perhaps I should have) is the difference in articulation. I find I can be a little more crisp at the front of notes, but can still flatten it out for that wall-of-sound approach. This is something I have worked on on the 59-sized pieces, but struggled for a real 'ping', like I hear in players like Dave Taylor and Bill Reichenbach. I find it's within reach on this size piece.

The sound, for me, is much more lively and interesting at all times. Is it possible my tone sounds 'cheerier' now? Cheery like some of George's recordings, cheery like the bass bones in the Elgart band. It's subtle, but I hear it.

I find the Greg Black in particular to be very flexible; still able to lay out a thick, dense sound, but able to snap, sizzle and lighten when needed, too.

And high range! Who woulda thunk it! I don't think I realised just how much easier it would be. I thought it'd be a little help, but for a day or so, I was mispitching like crazy, which is not like me. Sometimes, I believed it was too easy to be playing that high, so I must be doing something wrong! Nope, something right.

At the moment, I still feel like my chops are getting into the smaller rim size (despite playing smaller pieces on tenor), and I don't always get the air quite right, but my accuracy rate is improving by the minute.

This has been a major rethink for me. I have a few ballets coming up in a month or so, where I will really be able to test this piece/my concepts out in the heat of battle, and I'm hoping it will be as effective as I think it is.

My next thought is, as I'm moving towards a little more classic sound, on a classic sized mouthpiece, is it possible I'd be having even more fun on a more classicly-proportioned horn? My dual-bore, dependent Edwards is possibly the most open horn on the market, and seems to have been developed around big mouthpieces and big air. Is that where my future lies? My pocket aches just thinking about it...

Regardless, I'm having more fun on bass trombone right now than I've had in years, and if it makes me want to practice more, then it's a very good thing.

Andrew (who wishes there were more Conn bass trombones in Australia...)



ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Apr 09, 2008, 06:15AM
Andrew (who wishes there were more Conn bass trombones in Australia...)

Just ask DJ, enquire at Dillon's, browse the eBay (as I did) and let it send to you! Image
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

Quote from: Slidennis on Apr 09, 2008, 06:30AMJust ask DJ, enquire at Dillon's, browse the eBay (as I did) and let it send to you! Image

That I know, but it hardly gives me a chance to blow one to see if my suspicions are correct.

I almost pulled the trigger on a neat looking 62H a few days ago on the bay, and probably would have bought a 70H with custom 2nd valve, if it had a single bore slide rather than a 547/562. Still would like to try one locally, first. I'm also looking into a Greenhoe with TIS, finances permitting.

Andrew
ttf_second.chance
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_second.chance »

Hey Andrew--- save those pennies and take a few days off and haul yourself up to the ITF, more horns than you could play in three days - Greenhoes galore on their stand and a colonial who talks the same language as you!!!. Doug
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Hi Andrew,
Glad to hear that the GB1.5 is working out for you.  As we discussed lasted time, I went with the Stork 1.5 instead of the GB.  Got it from Slidebone, who gold plated it for me.  It wasn't much of a size ajustment for me as I have been playing a Rath 1.5W, but what a fun blow!  I've only played it in the big band and had an absolute ball.  I was really happy with the colours that I could create on the piece.

It was an added bonus because I just got my lexan valve caps for the Bach/Greenhoe so the horn was extra spicy!  I hear you re more Conns in Oz; i feel a Conn/Greenhoe on the horizon.  It was hard enough justifying the Bach/Greenhoe, I don't think I could justify a Greenhoe custom, which I can only assume is more expensive again.
Cheers,
Anthony
ttf_CRWV
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_CRWV »

I am starting to understand something Mr. Stearn said about the smaller pieces (I've been rockin a Rath B2W since thanksgiving), the more you try to create focus, the more you can do; when i center up and really go straight through the horn with a small column of air (mental aids, i can explain none of the physics involved), i can really get some sound out.

ey boneranger, couldn't you sell the axials and get enough to replace em with rotors, same going for the slide(single bore)?
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

Quote from: CRWV on Apr 10, 2008, 09:37PMey boneranger, couldn't you sell the axials and get enough to replace em with rotors, same going for the slide(single bore)?

I could, but I'm a little sceptical of the results. Edwards trombones were, I believe, designed around axials, and I think there's a reason why the majority of Edwards bass players play axials/dual bore slides. They work.

I'd be reluctant to sell off my Edwards until I found a horn I was completely happy with. I can comfortably take this horn into any ensemble and make it work, and seeing as though I make my living with a 50/50 split of teaching and performing, and this is my only bass trombone, I can't afford to be without it!!

Plus I'm re-discovering my Edwards since moving to the 1.5G. It really has changed my approach to the axe.

Andrew
ttf_slidejj
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slidejj »

I'm playing an Edwards bass with dependent rotors and a Rath 1-1/2W.  I'll take it over the axial setup with a larger mouthpiece, that it was supposedly designed for, any day (see my profile for the bits).  It may or may not work for you but it is an option.
ttf_anonymous
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_anonymous »

On the bass trombones I've played on I have used a Shilke 60. One of my instructors let me use it and I've gotten to like it. The rim is a little sharper. I have played on a Bach 1 1/4 G before that was interesting because it was on a Symphonic Tenor... (my Bach 42B). I have not used a 1 1/2 G but if the rim isn't sharp enough it won't help me out any...
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

The last half year I have been swimming in mouthpieces. Trying-reading-trying again. I did read Sabutin´s good advice on how to try mouthpieces - thanks. I see more and more that we are very different and that one size or brand of mouthpieces works very different for us together with our different instruments setup.  Any mouthpiece whatever size or brand can be terrific in the right hands. Thanks to Mr.Stearn for this tread. I think many of us have made our horizon some wider after reading his posts and many other excellent posts in this popular tread.

I begin to understand that choice of size also can  have something to do with our different embouchure settings. I listen to some players with big buckets and they can sound very focused and nice. When I try it I sound like and elephant who don't know where to go. Doug Elliot have said something about this subject somewhere else? If he read this maybe he could enlighten us more?

Leif

ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: savio on Apr 13, 2008, 12:21AMThe last half year I have been swimming in mouthpieces. Trying-reading-trying again. I did read Sabutin´s good advice on how to try mouthpieces - thanks. I see more and more that we are very different and that one size or brand of mouthpieces works very different for us together with our different instruments setup.  Any mouthpiece whatever size or brand can be terrific in the right hands. Thanks to Mr.Stearn for this tread. I think many of us have made our horizon some wider after reading his posts and many other excellent posts in this popular tread.

I begin to understand that choice of size also can  have something to do with our different embouchure settings. I listen to some players with big buckets and they can sound very focused and nice. When I try it I sound like and elephant who don't know where to go. Doug Elliot have said something about this subject somewhere else? If he read this maybe he could enlighten us more?

Leif
Hi Savio,
I am a little worried about the way you are trying mouthpieces.... a change every couple of weeks... that is about the worst thing to do- you will just become confused and ALL the mouthpieces will feel wrong. I am quite close to Sam Burtis on this...
try all that you have and if one seems better, put the others in a box and give it to a friend and tell him not to give the box back for six months. Work at that mouthpiece. It's the work that is far more important than ANY mouthpiece... do you think great players are great, just because they found the 'right' mouthpiece ? Of course not....
Chris Stearn.


ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Yes I have been very confused and have been trying to much. And I also admit I have not been doing it the way it should be done.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

And thanks for the advice. I don't change every couple of weeks. I have a job where I am part of an ensemble and have to take care of my chops and my job. (I have more or less been on 2 mouthpieces in this period)

And my problem is not that I start to feel all mouthpieces are wrong. I feel most of them are very good and that's my confusion.

And all of us agree that mouthpieces don't play by them self or make us good players. (or trombones....) But finding the right one is important for us all. And I think most for our own feeling and enjoying when we play. People around don't listen that "big" difference but our feeling do. But of course where we play can demand different setup. I have in my soon 30 years of playing been with one trombone and one mouthpiece. So I'm an novice in trying new.

Let's forget my confusion I will find a way but thanks for worrying.

My question in my post was if size of mouthpiece have something to do with different embouchure settings?

Another good advice in the forum from Harold Van Schaik or a friend?:

[/quote]As Frank Crisafulli used to say,"a new mouthpiece solves all problems for three weeks...that is why I switch every TWO."[/quote]

I don't have the money to follow it....
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I understand what you are saying Savio. There is a general trend for players to shift more on smaller mouthpieces, especially in the low register. It is interesting that you have stayed on the same equipment for many years and are now experimenting. What would you say is the reason for this ?
You have chosen several good mouthpieces... they can all work for you, given time. What you need to decide is, which one do you most feel like spending your time on ?
If you are looking for the perfect mouthpiece... I found it first  Image
The truth is that I have several that I would be happy to use, but I stick with one.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

The reason for change is new instrument. I had a big Bach 50bl and a schilke 59 which was perfect for me. Never thought about something else because it worked for me.

Quote from: blast on Apr 15, 2008, 03:35AMYou have chosen several good mouthpieces... they can all work for you, given time.
Thats my confusion! But I will find a way out.....

What I really want to know is if you or anybody else know if different embouchure's or chops has something to do with choice of size?


ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Yes, ask Doug Elliott, he knows a lot about it!

I only know roughly this :

I lean toward small rim mpcs, and I have a Reinhardt embouchure type III : downstream with low mpc placement on the lips and tilting my horn down ;

If you are a downstream player with a high placement (2/3 upper lip, 1/3 lower) you usually lean toward larger rim sizes, IIRC...
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: savio on Apr 15, 2008, 04:54AMThe reason for change is new instrument. I had a big Bach 50bl and a schilke 59 which was perfect for me. Never thought about something else because it worked for me.

Thats my confusion! But I will find a way out.....

What I really want to know is if you or anybody else know if different embouchure's or chops has something to do with choice of size?



Well embouchure shape/size/type will obviously guide mouthpiece selection... also size of mouth cavity... but we can get carried away with mouthpiece size... all trumpet players use trumpet mouthpieces and all tuba players use tuba mouthpieces... there are a range of sizes for each instrument, but we all work within that range. I would go so far as to say mouthpiece size selection is more tonally driven than physically driven for the advanced player... and that brings us nicely back on topic... in many ways the 1 1/2G size for bass trombone is a sensible physical choice for the developing player and a tonal option for the advanced player.
Chris Stearn.
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Quote from: blast on Apr 15, 2008, 02:35PMin many ways the 1 1/2G size for bass trombone is a sensible physical choice for the developing player and a tonal option for the advanced player.
Chris Stearn.
I love this one! Image
So the in betweener intermediate guy has the right to get lost in an ocean of different mouthpieces!!!
I hope jumping from the developing boat on the advanced one without being compelled to wander on that ocean for decades!!!
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Slidennis on Apr 15, 2008, 11:40PMI love this one! Image
So the in betweener intermediate guy has the right to get lost in an ocean of different mouthpieces!!!
I hope jumping from the developing boat on the advanced one without being compelled to wander on that ocean for decades!!!

Very smart. A career in journalism beckons.
What I was highlighting was the different role of one mouthpiece at very different points in the developmental path. That does nothing to the validity of that mouthpiece as a choice throughout the developmental process... and the 1 1/2G has been a long term choice for many players.
It is an interesting fact that many players have (including myself) explored the larger sizes in their career before returning to the 1 1/2G size for primarily tonal reasons.
As far as rights are concerned, we all have the right to be as smart or as stupid as we like... in mouthpiece selection, as in all other things.
Chris Stearn.
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Some 1 1/2G's I like better than others... So the confusion stays, even if we don't wander away from 1 1/2 size...
 Image

ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Slidennis on Apr 16, 2008, 01:18AMSome 1 1/2G's I like better than others... So the confusion stays, even if we don't wander away from 1 1/2 size...
 Image


No two mouthpieces are the same.... just like mouths  Image The right one is out there... somewhere  Image

Chris Stearn.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: blast on Apr 15, 2008, 02:35PMin many ways the 1 1/2G size for bass trombone is a sensible physical choice for the developing player and a tonal option for the advanced player.

I am also something in between, I have been touching some pro orchestras long time ago but never at a level where I could win an audition. But have to do a blend 50/50% of teaching and playing in my job. Today its anyway to late for me living in a small place in a fjord of Norway miles away from everything.  And it seems that the level of "new" players just get higher and higher. (Like everything else)

Anyway as Dennis call it I'm an "in betweener" and chose a 1 1/2g  both to make my life easier and for the tonal aspect of it.

Chris: if you have a "perfect" one could you just make an exact copy and share it with us poor confused........? Image


Leif




ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Ah !!! The perfect mouthpiece... mine is locked in the castle of dreams, protected by the fairest maiden ever seen and her servants, sloth and stupidity.  Image Image Image

Once we learn to live with the fact that there is no perfect mouthpiece, we can then decide on which package of compromises suits us best. We pick one and work at it. The more we work at it, the more of a perfect mouthpiece it becomes.
Rath copied the mouthpiece that I use... a wide rim (my own design) Mt Vernon Bach 1 1/2G and called it the B1 1/2W. I have since modified the rim of my mouthpiece, and they used their own backbore and outer shape, so they play differently to mine... but that is quite close to my own compromise. It's not a remarkable mouthpiece when you first blow it, but in my professional situation, it covers my requirements best.... things like holding together with a good sound at fff, an interesting and complex sound at all dynamics, ease of speaking at ppp.... and lots of other things.
Just remember, A MOUTHPIECE DOES NOTHING.... IT ALLOWS YOU TO DO THINGS.
Think about it.

Chris Stearn.
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Chris, be honest : do you play the Mt Vernon or the Rath?
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I play the Mt Vernon... sorry if I didn't make that clear.... why play a copy when you have the original ?
Chris Stearn.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: savio on Apr 13, 2008, 03:24PMAnd all of us agree that mouthpieces don't play by them self or make us good players. (or trombones....) But finding the right one is important for us all. And I think most for our own feeling and enjoying when we play. 

To be honest I play a Bach 1 1/2g and have mostly done that + one another which I put back in the box 2 months ago. I have tried some of the "new" brands and was sure some of this would be better for me. But we are different. For most people they are improvements but I start to believe the old bach mouthpiece is the best choice for me and my light yamaha bass. (thats a part of my confusion to admit this is the best solution for me)And I admit I have been stupid when I all my life have thought about this mouthpiece as boring. For some its still the best choice and I think I just have to face this fact. And by the way many good names have been playing this one with rather nice results.

Quote from: blast on Apr 15, 2008, 02:35PMWell embouchure shape/size/type will obviously guide mouthpiece selection... also size of mouth cavity... but we can get carried away with mouthpiece size... all trumpet players use trumpet mouthpieces and all tuba players use tuba mouthpieces... there are a range of sizes for each instrument, but we all work within that range. 

That make sense!

The reason for asking about this subject is the fact that many people sound focused on big pieces but I sound unfocused. But on 1 1/2 size my sound is focused.

Slidennis: I read your post about different types but I have not been reading so much about upstream and downstream type III and so one. Its rather complex stuff. I have my mouthpiece 50/50, maybe a little more on my upper lip and yes I tilt my horn some down but have it straight when playing pedals. But as Mr. Stearn says when we can adapt to both tuba and trumpet we should be able to adapt the different bass sizes.

After all it seems that I should have saved my money the last months and looked more closely in my own box. The Bach mouthpiece has been there for over 30 years. (but Im not 100% sure.....maybe 90% and sorry my bad English)

Leif
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Quote from: blast on Apr 17, 2008, 02:22AMI play the Mt Vernon... sorry if I didn't make that clear.... why play a copy when you have the original ?
Chris Stearn.
Not to wear the original even more, of course!
ttf_mellotbone
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_mellotbone »

Quotewhy play a copy when you have the original
I've been playing the copy for 8 or 9 months, exclusively.

I certainly do agree with Mr. Stearns when he says that there is no "perfect" mouthpiece. However, for me, the Rath B 1/2W is about as perfect a set of compromises that I've ever come across. Pretty easy down low for what is basically a slightly oversized 1 1/2G; upper range is quite good; and very warm in the middle register yet edgy if I want to play it that way. And...I'm one of those who doesn't easily tolerate sharp or thin rim contours very well. So the wide rim is perfect for me. Image

I have tried a couple other pieces, but nothing else balances the compromises as well for me.

Right now the only change I'm considering is trying the gold-plated version.

Now, if I can only get my hands on the original. Image Image Image
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Quote from: mellotbone on Apr 17, 2008, 06:53AMNow, if I can only get my hands on the original. Image Image Image
That's why I asked... 

To propose Chris selling it to me the price of a Rath, if he was not playing it, but the Rath instead!
ttf_gbedinger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_gbedinger »

This is slightly off-topic, but I can't help myself.  Yesterday, Chris said this to SlideDennis:

Quote from: blast on Apr 16, 2008, 12:16AMVery smart. A career in journalism beckons.

And today he said this:

Quote from: blast on Apr 17, 2008, 01:49AMAh !!! The perfect mouthpiece... mine is locked in the castle of dreams, protected by the fairest maiden ever seen and her servants, sloth and stupidity.

Chris, I think you may have missed a calling as well.  Image
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_svenlarsson »

Quote from: savio on Apr 15, 2008, 04:54AMThe reason for change is new instrument. I had a big Bach 50bl and a schilke 59 which was perfect for me. Never thought about something else because it worked for me.

Thats my confusion! But I will find a way out.....

What I really want to know is if you or anybody else know if different embouchure's or chops has something to do with choice of size?


There is no simple answer to that. There are all kinds of choices out there. It is not allways connected to up or down stream, high or low placement. You just have to find out your size by testing.
Sometimes players do find a better size then what they have been using for years. Or different sizes for different situations, like a smaller for jazz and bigger for orchestra. There are also different sound goals in different countries. Don't' Norwegians prefer large mouthpieces? Image
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 18, 2008, 03:39AMThere are also different sound goals in different countries. Don't' Norwegians prefer large mouthpieces? Image

Of course, everything is big in Norway.......or... Image
Hiding in a fjord of Norway I have not seen a bass trombone player for a long time so I don't know Image Isn't it the same as Sweden Svenne?

But since the "perfect" one is in a dream or a Castle in Scotland, and my bank account is soon empty I go for the Bach 1 1/2g. And that made us definitely back on topic  Image

Leif
ttf_slidejj
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slidejj »

Quote from: mellotbone on Apr 17, 2008, 06:53AMI've been playing the copy for 8 or 9 months, exclusively.

I certainly do agree with Mr. Stearns when he says that there is no "perfect" mouthpiece. However, for me, the Rath B 1/2W is about as perfect a set of compromises that I've ever come across. Pretty easy down low for what is basically a slightly oversized 1 1/2G; upper range is quite good; and very warm in the middle register yet edgy if I want to play it that way. And...I'm one of those who doesn't easily tolerate sharp or thin rim contours very well. So the wide rim is perfect for me. Image

I have tried a couple other pieces, but nothing else balances the compromises as well for me.

Right now the only change I'm considering is trying the gold-plated version.

Now, if I can only get my hands on the original. Image Image Image

Ditto... plus I have the GP version, I guess that's as close to perfection as I'll get.  Image
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I recently got a Faxx 1 1/2g and was not so surprised by how good it felt but was surprised how different it was from my Bach 1 1/2g (very old one before 1970). Cup diameter felt some smaller and the rim was wider and more round. Is there really so big differences in the Bach mouthpieces? It felt more like my Rath B1 1/2 (Not "W") Only the Rath is bigger too. Any way this felt so good for me so I want to marry into it. Hope it will be forever but............also waiting for a Greg Black......So maybe wait with wedding yet.  Just one (or two) beers for the Faxx

Leif
ttf_svenlarsson
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_svenlarsson »

Quote from: savio on Apr 18, 2008, 07:12AMOf course, everything is big in Norway.......or... Image
Hiding in a fjord of Norway I have not seen a bass trombone player for a long time so I don't know Image Isn't it the same as Sweden Svenne?


Actually some very big mpc:s are used here in Sweden. It is because Swedes have a very stiff upper lip. At least some of us. Image
Post Reply

Return to “Mouthpieces”