Fafner wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:49 pm
Dude, your tone is so combative. I’m just trying to give you my perspective.
I don't think I was combative just because I disagreed with parts of your comment. I was just responding to your contribution, it doesn't automatically make it contentious.
No, I do not agree with you. I believe whether you play up or down stream depends heavily on how you jaw is physically shaped.
Not exactly. What makes an embouchure upstream or downstream is based on the direction of the airstream inside the cup, which is determined by which lip predominates. Mouthpiece placement usually determines this. However, jaw shape IS a huge factor in figuring out which embouchure type is most efficient for a player. This distinction matters because it's possible for players to play upstream when they should be downstream, and vice versa.
Everyone learns where their tendencies are and then works to make the shifts more effecient and, therefore, more subtle. Most people naturally tend to fit a more downstream blow. That’s why you see a vast majority of downstream orchestral players.
I completely agree with this.
It’s also been my experience that there are a more shifts necessary for orchestral playing than people like to admit—which may not work with your strict definitions of embouchures.
These aren't "my" definitions, they are Donald Reinhardts, Doug Elliott's, Dave Wilken's, etc. Nothing I've written has been claimed as my own ideas about embouchure. Additionally, all of the ideas I posted about embouchure can be observed.
People need to go into different embouchures to play different registers and dynamics. While I play downstream most the time, I go slightly upstream for a few notes deep in the trigger register.
People don't necessarily need to shift, or go into different embouchures. It's more often the case that people don't know how to practice in a way that will develop your playing without shifting. Additionally, many traditional attitudes of "sound first" and "air air air" among brass teachers often lead to people doing whatever it takes to get the notes out immediately, instead of building them long term. It's certainly harder to learn to play mostly everything without shifting or changing embouchures, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Derek has an over-all tendency to go upstream... not sure why you’re not seeing that. I’ve played with a ton of good orchestral tuba players that generally play upstream.
I'm not seeing it because his embouchure motion is inconsistent with how upstream embouchures function a lot of the time, and because his placement is pretty close to half and half, which means it could go either way. And because the video doesn't clearly show his chops, doesn't show multiple angles. Again, what makes a player upstream is the direction of the air INSIDE the mouthpiece. I'm not saying this DEFINITELY isn't happening. I'm saying that I'm not sure, and I think it's hard to clearly say. Maybe Doug or Dave will chime in here and point out something I'm not seeing. If you've seen him up close, that's great, but don't assume that your observations are completely obvious from that video.
Justin seems to be playing more 50/50 in that video—which is different from when I knew his playing years ago (although it sneaks in here and there and you can tell he doesn’t have a classic embouchure). I don’t think orchestral upstream is an anomaly or something to be dogmatic about. I defenitly don’t think “the odds are against them.”
I think we're seeing different things here.
I’m glad we got some cool videos and great music out of this conversation. I’m tired of talking about embouchures.
I'm not tired of it. I happen to enjoy it, and if you don't, you don't have to do it. It informs my playing and teaching. Sorry if I ruffled feathers by engaging.