Trigger happy

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Arnondb
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Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:38 pm

Recently I started to play a “king 5b” trombone. It is my first “triggered” trombone. I started to practice a bass trombone book (Eli Aharoni’s) and found out that using the trigger repeatedly is highly uncomfortable. I saw many of my friends modify or add things to the trigger. Can you recommend me on a way to customize the trigger?
Are there any “guides” in this matter?
Thanks
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Neo Bri
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Neo Bri » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:49 pm

Post a picture of the trigger if you can. It'll help many of us help you.
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Kingfan
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Kingfan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:08 pm

Yes, let's see the trigger and linkage. I have had a King 4B, same horn except slightly smaller bell, since 1973 and had no problems with the trigger. Post a pic of you holding the horn in playing position too, that could also help.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by sirisobhakya » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:39 am

Please also post the picture of your hand while holding the horn (grip). The grip is as important as, if not more important than, trigger design. No matter how well-designed the trigger and linkage are, if you don’t hold it the “right” way you are going to feel pain. And the “right” way can vary between horn to horn.

And please make sure the valve and all the components are well lubricated.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
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hyperbolica
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by hyperbolica » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:41 am

If you're new to the trigger and playing Aharoni, well, first, congratulations, it's one of the best bass bone books I've found. Second, bass bone music is going to be full of trigger notes, because it's for bass bone. The physical weariness of constantly using your thumb will subside with ... you guessed it ... practice. If you're not getting enough trigger practice, I recommend the Arbans interval studies that use the trigger. Those will help you keep your thumb in shape :pant:

You can put some foam tube on the trigger lever, or some people put a wood roller, depending on the trigger configuration. You might be able to slip a foam tube or glue a patch of foam on the trigger paddle, but the 5b doesn't look like it will take a wooden roller without a modification.

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BGuttman
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by BGuttman » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:22 am

Note that there are two "flavors" of 5B. The older style (and its predecessor the Symphony as shown in the picture) had a setup where you wrapped your thumb around the bell brace and worked the trigger.

Later versions had the bell brace moved so you can't wrap your thumb around it to work the trigger but must instead hold the instrument by balancing it on the heel of your left hand with the two smallest fingers holding it in place. This is similar to most other F-attachment instruments.

Many players install a simulation of the bell brace as shown. The names of the devices vary: Rest Bar, Ax Handle, Bullet Brace, and others. The idea is to clamp something near the bell joint that creates a place for the horn to rest between the thumb and the rest of the left hand.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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Kingfan
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Kingfan » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:07 pm

Does your 5B have the shorter thumb trigger with mechanical linkage like in the photo above, or the longer paddle trigger with string linkage?
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
Arnondb
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:18 am

I am having a very HARD TIME with posting the photos, so I'll put them in separate posts and hope for the best.
Here Is me holding the horn, maybe the problem is mostly there.
I DON'T HOLD THE SLIDE THAT WAY WHEN I PLAY
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Arnondb
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:19 am

Here is the trigger:
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Arnondb
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:19 am

And the famous Linkage
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Arnondb
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:21 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:41 am
If you're new to the trigger and playing Aharoni, well, first, congratulations, it's one of the best bass bone books I've found. Second, bass bone music is going to be full of trigger notes, because it's for bass bone. The physical weariness of constantly using your thumb will subside with ... you guessed it ... practice. If you're not getting enough trigger practice, I recommend the Arbans interval studies that use the trigger. Those will help you keep your thumb in shape :pant:
I totally agree about the practice thing. The only problem is that I feel, having a bit of experience in practicing that the pain I am feeling is not only of muscles building but also that of tendons overstretching and that is something I want to avoid.
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BGuttman
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by BGuttman » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:00 am

First, can you put the bell brace further into the web between thumb and forefinger? Worst case you may need to "build up" the thickness of the trigger paddle a little to fit your thumb.

I like to put the fixed slide brace between 2nd and 3rd fingers. Index finger goes on mouthpiece, 3nd finger goes in the ring (if you have one).

Third, are you actually holding the slide that way? If so that's WRONG on several counts. There are two preferred methods and the one I recommend to most beginners is thumb and 1st 2 fingers above the lower slide tube with the remaining two fingers below the lower slide tube. Your wrist should be parallel to the slide brace.

I had put a picture of how I hold my King 7B (very similar to your 5B, but with a second valve) on TTF, but I don't think pictures came over. I'll have to see if I can find the picture and post it here.

Hope this helps.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
Arnondb
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by Arnondb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:18 am

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:00 am
First, can you put the bell brace further into the web between thumb and forefinger? Worst case you may need to "build up" the thickness of the trigger paddle a little to fit your thumb.
I was just beginning to explore that. I tried to put the bell and slide closer together as i assembled the trombone, which resulted in smaller space between the braces and the trigger.

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:00 am
I like to put the fixed slide brace between 2nd and 3rd fingers. Index finger goes on mouthpiece, 3nd finger goes in the ring (if you have one).
Interesting, I'll give it a try. I have played differently these last 16 years but never had a trigger so I am open to new experiences.

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:00 am
Third, are you actually holding the slide that way? If so that's WRONG on several counts. There are two preferred methods and the one I recommend to most beginners is thumb and 1st 2 fingers above the lower slide tube with the remaining two fingers below the lower slide tube. Your wrist should be parallel to the slide brace.
I was afraid that remarks on that matter would start flying around. No, I don't hold the slide that way. I was in a hurry to grab it for the picture before the self counter ends. I thought about mentioning it in the post but than thought it would be too much information. I'll edit the post and add it.

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:00 am
I had put a picture of how I hold my King 7B (very similar to your 5B, but with a second valve) on TTF, but I don't think pictures came over. I'll have to see if I can find the picture and post it here.

Hope this helps.
I'd be happy to see that picture.
hyperbolica
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:43 am

I have not played a horn like that for an extended period of time, but I think when I did, I jogged my hand back so the bell brace hits my hand closer to the base of the forefinger, and my thumb had more room to move. Depending on the size of your hand, this might work well in conjunction with Bruce's comment about the slide brace, although I could never get used to a slide brace anywhere but on my forefinger. If you find moving your hand back helps, but is also uncomfortable, you can get something like a bullet brace to help you position it more carefully. I'm not sure how that will work on that particular horn with the trigger and brace, but it's worth a try.
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CalgaryTbone
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by CalgaryTbone » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:19 pm

Not sure if this will apply to your instrument, but I have an old 3B valve that I had my repairman jury-rig to work on an Edwards small bore with detachable neck-pipe. On that horn, the position for my thumb was made more comfortable by attaching a small piece of cork on top of the piece where your thumb pushes to activate the valve. My horn might be very different in the way it fits the hand, but you could try this by shaping a few wine corks in different thicknesses and temporarily attaching them to the valve with a rubber band. See if any of them make your grip feel better. The other upside is that you'll have to finish at least a couple of bottles of wine to get enough cork for the experiment - the way we suffer for our art!

Jim Scott
boneagain
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by boneagain » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:42 pm

Arnondb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:18 am
I am having a very HARD TIME with posting the photos, so I'll put them in separate posts and hope for the best.
Here Is me holding the horn, maybe the problem is mostly there.
I DON'T HOLD THE SLIDE THAT WAY WHEN I PLAY
Looks like quite a bit of the meat of your left hang hangs over the cork barrel on the lower slide. Also looks like you hold the bell brace with the joint of your thumb, rather than in the web between thumb and forefinger. As noted above, shifting your whole left hand closer to the bell brace will change where your thumb goes and should be much more comfortable.

I used to hold my forefinger across the mouthpiece receiver as you do in your picture. I moved that finger down below the inner slide brace and was suddenly much more comfortable. I started doing that on bass, then found myself trying and liking it on even a small tenor.

The key is to place your fingers so the bell brace goes into the web, near the base of your thumb. That's what King designed that trigger to work with.
heldenbone
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Re: Trigger happy

Post by heldenbone » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:36 pm

One detail you might want to attend to... in the photo you posted, it appears the valve knuckle between the slide tenon and the rotor shell appears crimped, as was my 4B-F when I acquired it (1975-ish vintage). That constriction is near enough to the center of the instrument lengthwise that having a tech carefully tease it back out without splitting the valve knuckle is worth the trouble. It will likely improve the instrument's intonation and ease response in the pedal register. It helped mine a lot. Kings are susceptible to that injury after years of being dropped on a trombone stand or being put together with more force than necessary.
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