Cut It

Post Reply
User avatar
Neo Bri
Posts: 685
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:30 am
Location: Netherwhere
Contact:

Cut It

Post by Neo Bri » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:02 am

Hi Chatters,

I've got a Bach 36BO. I'm planning on cutting the F-attachment tuning slide to G. How much tubing to I need to cut from it to make the magic happen? Is there a formula I can use to remove 2 half-steps of tubing from the attachment? If it's longer than the available length of the tuning slide itself, I'll need to figure out how to reduce the length of the attachment itself, which may actually be a better plan.

Thoughts?
________________________________________________________
Get the word out! Make www.trombonechat.com our community!
peteedwards
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:43 am
Location: York County PA

Re: Cut It

Post by peteedwards » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:25 am

A Bb horn is approx 108 inches tube length, for every 1/2 step higher, divide by 1.0595 (twelfth root of 2)
For every 1/2 step lower, multiply by 1.0595, so that:
Eb=80.9 (alto length)
D=85.7
Db=90.8
C=96
B=102
Bb=108 (tenor length)
A=114.4
Ab=121.2
G=128.4
Gb=136
F=144.2 (F contrabass length)
E=152.7
Eb=161.8
D=171.4

so F to G = 144.2 - 128.4 = 15.8 inches removed (7.9 inches per leg)
User avatar
Neo Bri
Posts: 685
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:30 am
Location: Netherwhere
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by Neo Bri » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:49 pm

Exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks! I hope this helps someone in the future, too.
________________________________________________________
Get the word out! Make www.trombonechat.com our community!
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Cut It

Post by imsevimse » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:12 pm

Why is g better?

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:28 pm

imsevimse wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:12 pm
Why is g better?

/Tom
All 4th position notes now in first position... Still a C and B, but closer to the middle of the slide. Only notes lost are pretty rare anyway, low Db and C.
Bass Trombone
DL Band
SLO Symphony
whitbey
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:44 am
Location: Rochester Michigan North of Detroit.
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by whitbey » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:41 pm

imsevimse wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:12 pm
Why is g better?

/Tom
So you can play G whizz.
:biggrin:
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Cut It

Post by imsevimse » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:21 pm

I can see the point when going from an f to a d on fourth and back. That's a common pattern. That will be easier on rhe g-valve as well as F-Db and back were you often need to play the f on sixth position. You loose the E. Maybe not very common on fast passages on a tenor but you also loose the Bb on v3. That's worse. Interesting concept!

Are there any factory made horns with g-valve?

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Cut It

Post by Matt K » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:41 pm

All the botique makers have it as a standard option on their basses for the second valve, so technically yes. THey'll also build you oe on request without too much difficult though I don't know if I've ever seen one that wasn't customized aftermarket.

Just make it independent and you get the best of both worlds, or dependent Bb/G/F!! :biggrin:
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Cut It

Post by imsevimse » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:54 pm

Yes, I know the inline basses are like that. I mostly play dependant so I have not experimented much with that tuning.

On a tenor the valve is most used for C, B, Bb, F and E. If you go lower you are in the bass register and if you think of it the notes below E are mostly used when you play third in a trombone trio (usually written for a bass trombone) or some solo litterature that wants you to play at least a low C. In most advanced big band charts the third part could be a lot easier with a g-valve.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
User avatar
ghmerrill
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:41 pm
Location: Central North Carolina

Re: Cut It

Post by ghmerrill » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:10 pm

If you do this (which I've thought was a very interesting idea for some time), first do the math, and then approach the surgery as a sequence of steps. Do not try to "get there in a single cut". The chance of overshooting is high, and then you'll be real sorry. And at each cut, play on it for a while -- like a week or so. Don't try to proceed too quickly. Do the test playing in several different conditions (temperature, humidity, small room, large concert hall, etc.). Slow and steady wins the race.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by elmsandr » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:41 am

Having cut a similar section (42BO), try this... Get a closed wrap tuning slide. Rotate the "S" tube a little and just cut the 90 just enough so that the tuning slide span matches the new tuning slide radius. You will have to trim the length on the closed wrap tuning slide and slightly trim the nickel outers to get an in tune G. But, if you just start with the 90, that is the only part you are modifying to make it really close.

FWIW, I like my G attachments to be capable of being adjusted from 20.5-22" in length. I measured mine in tune at ~21" with a piece of string. I'd check it again, but I don't own it anymore.
G 3.JPG
G 3.JPG (284.73 KiB) Viewed 700 times
Cheers,
Andy
peteedwards
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:43 am
Location: York County PA

Re: Cut It

Post by peteedwards » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:50 am

extremely close to the measurements given above

remember, only include measure ONE of the 2 ports inside the rotary valve for purposes of the cumulative length of the section. The other port's length is "borrowed" from the overall length of the horn.

And, also remember, its always better to be sharp, so don't worry about cutting a little too much. a little.
boneagain
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: Cut It

Post by boneagain » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:47 am

imsevimse wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:21 pm
I can see the point when going from an f to a d on fourth and back. That's a common pattern. That will be easier on rhe g-valve as well as F-Db and back were you often need to play the f on sixth position. You loose the E. Maybe not very common on fast passages on a tenor but you also loose the Bb on v3. That's worse. Interesting concept!

Are there any factory made horns with g-valve?

/Tom
One of the regular contributors on TTF had pictures of reconfiguring his King just by resetting tuning slides. Don't know if that's still possible on the Kings.
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by Burgerbob » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:10 am

Holton also sold a tenor trombone with G tuning.
Bass Trombone
DL Band
SLO Symphony
Gatt
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:53 pm

Re: Cut It

Post by Gatt » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:49 pm

Do you recall which model Holton tenor trombone has the 'G' attachment please?
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Cut It

Post by imsevimse » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:57 am

TR658 was the model number. Found one here
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?se ... 3D"Holton"

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
Gatt
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:53 pm

Re: Cut It

Post by Gatt » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:02 am

Thank you Tom! :wink:
timothy42b
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 am
Location: central Virginia

Re: Cut It

Post by timothy42b » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:12 am

imsevimse wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:12 pm
Why is g better?

/Tom
Here's a blast from the past:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5435222

There was quite a long discussion about the advantages of the G attachment (aka minor third attachment) on the old Forum, and I guess on the trombone-l that preceded it. Proponents were Alan Charlesworth and B. P. Leonard. I didn't find anything searching the archives.

It made a lot of sense to me, for technical options in the medium range.
Rrova
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:19 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Cut It

Post by Rrova » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:38 am

So if I wanted one of my valves in the key of D instead of G-flat, how long would it have to be?
Bonearzt
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am
Location: My Dungeon of Hell....Actually Texas
Contact:

Re: Cut It

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:58 am

One of the regular contributors on TTF had pictures of reconfiguring his King just by resetting tuning slides. Don't know if that's still possible on the Kings.
[/quote]

Not with the couple of King's I've seen lately. Conn-Selmer has changes the configuration of the valve section so that it will take quite a bit of slicing & dicing to get this interchangeability possible.

And thinking a bit more deeply into the project I recently had, I'm vaguely remembering that it was not possible to make it flip from G to F again. But I may be wrong.

I'll see if I can contact the customer and find out.


Eric
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
972.795.5784

"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Cut It

Post by Matt K » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:00 am

Rrova wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:38 am
So if I wanted one of my valves in the key of D instead of G-flat, how long would it have to be?
That one is actually pretty straightforward if I'm understanding it correctly: it would be the length of an F attachment + the length of a Gb attachment. According to Andy's chat from before, it looks like it'll be about 5' of tubing!
Rrova
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:19 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Cut It

Post by Rrova » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:03 am

That makes sense! Thanks!
User avatar
greenbean
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:14 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Cut It

Post by greenbean » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 am

Rrova wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:38 am
So if I wanted one of my valves in the key of D instead of G-flat, how long would it have to be?
REALLY long. See this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Dual-Tr ... C7000%7C10

Apparently, this guy insisted on playing through one valve at a time! But he paid a steep price with all that tubing - must weight a ton!
User avatar
greenbean
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:14 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Cut It

Post by greenbean » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:00 am

Gatt wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:49 pm
Do you recall which model Holton tenor trombone has the 'G' attachment please?
I have a Holton TR650 with a G-att. I believe it is a .500-bore horn. The slide needs a little work; I haven't really used it. But it seems to play well.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zqfJu9UQMz4CSCyTA
Post Reply

Return to “Modification & Repair”