Slide end bumper?

[Danitrb]

I'm still thinking that mind has more power than a bumper to change or improve our playing. Greetings

[ithinknot]

Trigger warning: science

21°C; 45% RH; 85m above sea level
hair - brown; eyes - two; Capricorn

genuine Bostick Blu Tack, fresh from the packet and previously unkneaded by human hands

8g - duller articulation feedback, weight noticeable in hand
4g - as above but less so
2g - not convinced it would survive a blind test, not much difference in mid range but could persuade myself back-to-back flexibilities above high Bb seemed freer without

Test horn has world's heaviest outer (Besson 10-10, 291g ... currently away from home and rest of collection for work); reasonable to assume that differences might be more significant on a lighter slide

Conclusion: time for a snack

[DaveAshley]

I never have a bumper, because I never rest the weight of the horn on the end of the slide. It's either on a stand or my thigh.

And you know what? I haven't needed a slide job in more than ten years, either.

[GabrielRice]

I'm still thinking that mind has more power than a bumper to change or improve our playing. Greetings

Well, yeah, obviously. The mind has more power than any piece of rubber - or plastic or metal - to improve our playing.

That doesn't mean I don't try to find the trombone and mouthpiece and leather hand guard (or not) and rubber bumper (or not) that makes it easiest for me to get from what's in my mind to sound.

I'm not saying its a big difference - I'm just saying it's a small difference I notice, and I prefer the response without it.

[Posaunus]

How long have rubber slide tip bumpers been around? I remember when I started playing in the 1950s (yeah, I'm a certifiably old guy) they weren't common.

As a junior high schooler, when I showed up at my trombone lesson with a shiny new Olds A20 Ambassador, there was no slide bumper on it. My teacher sent me to the local Ford dealer where I was directed to purchase a particular rubber nipple used on a Ford carburetor (remember those?)! Teacher carefully installed it for me, and cautioned me to not lose it. [He also taught me the proper way to apply Pond's Cold Cream. I still have a mostly full jar in my trombone closet!] Great teacher!

[Blabberbucket]

Trigger warning: science

21°C; 45% RH; 85m above sea level
hair - brown; eyes - two; Capricorn

genuine Bostick Blu Tack, fresh from the packet and previously unkneaded by human hands

8g - duller articulation feedback, weight noticeable in hand
4g - as above but less so
2g - not convinced it would survive a blind test, not much difference in mid range but could persuade myself back-to-back flexibilities above high Bb seemed freer without

Test horn has world's heaviest outer (Besson 10-10, 291g ... currently away from home and rest of collection for work); reasonable to assume that differences might be more significant on a lighter slide

Conclusion: time for a snack

This is the way to do this. I'd be curious to work with a highly refined player and install different crook guards of varied materials and weights and see what the impact would be. Removing and installing different guards while a player waits would be reasonably quick and easy. Anyone in the Northeast Indiana area that's interested, I'd be glad to conduct an experiment like this - I'm an experienced brass tech.

[harrisonreed]

[timothy42b]

This is the way to do this. I'd be curious to work with a highly refined player
[/quote]

There is a lot of variability in how we play from day to day, note to note. A highly refined player minimizes this; it still exists.

If you're not being extremely consistent, you don't know whether a sound difference you hear is due to the slide bumper or just you. I suspect that somewhere around 99% of us here are not consistent enough to make that distinction whether or not a difference really exists. I don't doubt that there are some highly professional players here that can both play more consistently than I and hear more distinctly.

I also suspect that at least 90% will hear a difference anyway.

[ithinknot]

There is a lot of variability in how we play from day to day, note to note. A highly refined player minimizes this; it still exists.

If you're not being extremely consistent, you don't know whether a sound difference you hear is due to the slide bumper or just you.

Yes and no. We're mostly discussing 'feel' and 'response' issues, most or all of which wouldn't make it across the room or reach a mic... which is why this discussion is inherently ridiculous, because everyone should do whatever they want.

I won't claim any great consistency, but I'm confident I can tell the difference between my own momentary flubs and the 'mean average feel' of different setups - especially when repeatedly A/Bing the change, keeping the mouthpiece set on my face in between.

We're talking about the level of 'paying attention to one's self' - within which listening is key, but not all - that makes practice possible... You don't expect ever-increasing applause from bystanders with each repetition of an exercise, but you are (or should be) tuned in to the minutiae of sound/feel/perceived efficiency/comfort in a way that makes practicing seem directed and worthwhile.

[SteveM]

Of those players who do notice a difference in response, do any of you prefer to have the rubber bumper on?

[WGWTR180]

I know several excellent players who believe that anything and everything makes a difference. Rubber tip versus not, Cork versus felt in the cork barrel, and even cork versus anything else in the spit valve. YES I know people who believe the instrument sounds different with different spit valve material! Do I believe it? Well I haven't done any experiments so I don't know. Maybe we would've heard back from Brian Johnson if we all took this topic as super seriously as he does. But maybe more constructive comments would have been made if he hadn't insulted some player's playing abilities without even hearing them or knowing who they are. Not everyone can be in the Ft Wayne Philharmonic.

[Kbiggs]

It’s tempting to see issues like this as black-or-white: something either does or doesn’t make a difference. Like WGWTR180 and others who’ve posted here, I believe (without any scientific evidence or controlled experimentation) that playing without a slide bumper makes a difference to the feedback or response. I also believe, as I mentioned before, that the placebo effect is real.

Because feedback from the instrument is subjective, it’s up to the player to decide what feels best. If the player feels that horn responds in a way that the player perceives as better (whatever that means), then it’s up to the player to make that decision.

In other words, I know the placebo effect is real and I know everything makes a difference and I feel that feedback without a bumper feels better—to me.

It might not be a real effect, it might only give me a 1% difference in how things feel, but I need that 1%. In fact, I need all the help I can get!

[elmsandr]

It’s tempting to see issues like this as black-or-white: something either does or doesn’t make a difference. Like WGWTR180 and others who’ve posted here, I believe (without any scientific evidence or controlled experimentation) that playing without a slide bumper makes a difference to the feedback or response. I also believe, as I mentioned before, that the placebo effect is real.

Because feedback from the instrument is subjective, it’s up to the player to decide what feels best. If the player feels that horn responds in a way that the player perceives as better (whatever that means), then it’s up to the player to make that decision.

In other words, I know the placebo effect is real and I know everything makes a difference and I feel that feedback without a bumper feels better—to me.

It might not be a real effect, it might only give me a 1% difference in how things feel, but I need that 1%. In fact, I need all the help I can get!

Again.. I’m not arguing with any of the particulars here. Just want to share some thoughts.

The problem that a lot of data people here will have is in the chain above. Yes, you know placebo is real. You believe no bumper is better, and you feel that it is better so that works. I do agree with that… except the problem is that with no data; if you are blind to it daily what if no bumper is actually worse? The placebo effect is real and could be stronger than the main effect of the bumper, so if you made that decision while not randomized and blind to the effects, you could have skewed the study and chosen incorrectly. It DID feel better and evaluate better based on the test condition. Based on the bias that we know exists. But long term, when thinking about something else while playing, you could be handicapping yourself. That said, I don’t think that could possibly apply to a bumper. To lacquer? Probably a great candidate to test a measurable response change to placebo strength. To a bell choice? Absolutely. I keep doing it with gold brass bells, myself. They’re gorgeous but I just sound better on yellow.

Back to my gold brass bass now… I’ll pull off the bumper, but taking off the hand grip is a pain and needed for this valve section..

Cheers,
Andy

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Of those players who do notice a difference in response, do any of you prefer to have the rubber bumper on?

Yes Steve……me! However, only on the trombone that I am currently (temporarily) playing. Allow me to explain.

My normal equipment is on the heavy side. My “go to” bass trombone is an Edwards that I rebuilt several years ago. The slide is a .572-.578 dual bore with nickel over sleeves and a gold brass .607 bore gold brass crook. The bell is a sanded and buffed down CF 987. The rotor caps have small weights on them. The slide crook has a Bach crook guard and a Bach rubber bumper. I actually prefer the way it plays without the rubber bumper because the articulations are a bit clearer and it responds a little faster. However, I keep the rubber bumper on because I fear that I might accidentally allow the slide to rest on a slippery floor and it might slip/cause damage.

But wait! A little over a month ago, I had surgery on my left hand. Thus, I am working my way back to holding the big horn again. The horn that I have been using for the past 14-15 days is a Bach LT50G. It is the lightest bass trombone I own, so I thought it would be the best horn to get me through this transition as my hand heals. Under normal conditions, the LT slide and the thinner bell are not the perfect match for me. The horn sounds great from p to mf but gets a bit bright and edgy on the loud end. Motivated by this thread, I did the “bumper vs. no bumper” test. As I have indicated on an earlier post, I usually feel a difference and I did notice a difference on this horn. On this Bach LT50G, I actually prefer the bumper ON. Without the bumper, my articulations at loud volumes get a little edgy at a slightly lower volume.

So……for me, the “bumper or no bumper” preference would depend on the horn. I should also note that I am more sensitive to the difference on bigger equipment. I remember trying the “bumper vs. no bumper“ test on some .500 bore horns years ago and it was a toss up. Then again, 95% of my playing is on .525 bore and larger horns. Thus, my lack of sensitivity on smaller horns makes sense.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

[hornbuilder]

Had a client many years ago with a Bach trombone which "played tight and stiff" all of a sudden about 2 weeks prior. I looked it over, couldn't see anything that would change the way the horn played. He had a pencil holder on the top main tuning slide tubing. I asked when he had put it on. He said about 2 weeks ago.



I took it off, he played the horn and it was back to being responsive and flexible again.

[Burgerbob]

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.

[Kdanielsen]

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.

I think the bolt on kind change things.

[Burgerbob]

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.

I think the bolt on kind change things.

Yes, I should say I don't dig Rath handbraces and bullet braces for this reason. (though of course my contra has a Rath brace out of necessity)

[Matt K]

Another reason to avoid the clip ons and a they can break in your case and then you end up with a pencil ok your leadpipe. (Not that this has ever happened to me… 15 minutes before the downbeat of a gig or anything…)

I suspect that Velcro would do a better job but I just get squeamish with putting anything in my case that isn’t a trombone at this point. Or at least anything that could conceivably end up down the leadpipe

[GabrielRice]

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

I'll join the chorus of yes. I find it varies a bit with different horns. I use a hand grip on my Bach and don't mind it. I don't like them on my Shires instruments.

[elmsandr]

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

Yes. And for me a similar logic applies. I sometimes need a left hand grip. I tried a right hand one for a while. Do not like what it does. The left hands… I think they are similar, but the difference is small enough that I don’t worry about it. Similar with the velcro pencil holder. The functionality of the pencil is far above any performance or feel gain from removing it.

As for coming loose, I’ve had the pencil holder on my horns for >20 years. Haven’t lost a pencil or had one come loose in the case. I do wrap a bit of tape around the middle of the pencil so that it is a tighter fit in holder, however.

Cheers,
Andy

[calcbone]

I used hand grips for a while in college on my 42B and then my Shires, but eventually decided I liked the feel without them—not because of response issues. I do have a Velcro pencil holder that I’ll put on it sometimes.

However, I tried them on my 3B and noticed a definite decrease in the responsiveness of the horn.

[Kbiggs]

Again.. I’m not arguing with any of the particulars here. Just want to share some thoughts.

…

Back to my gold brass bass now… I’ll pull off the bumper, but taking off the hand grip is a pain and needed for this valve section..

Cheers,
Andy

No problem. And you’re right: It’s a discussion, not an argument.

My view is that so much of making (and appreciating) art is subjective. We try to “objectify the subjective” by assigning a value to something, e.g., a Likert scale, which can be helpful when comparing things. It’s still subjective, based on values, preferences, history, teachers, etc.

We try different things, and ask ourselves questions like, “Does this mouthpiece help overall? What about the high range? Articulation? Does the rim size and shape feel good?” “Does this left/right hand grip help me hold the horn? Does it detract from the sound?” “Do these brushes help me achieve the kind of definition I want in this painting to bring out the chiaroscuro effect?” etc. etc. But our answers and preferences are heavily influenced by our past: what we read, what we listen to, our teachers, etc. Even when we solicit an opinion and ask someone else, they listen (perceive) through their own lenses, and give an opinion based on their experience. Different teachers will give different opinions on the same equipment.

While human beings tend to think in black/white, good/bad dualistic thinking, art is arbitrary. Systems of thinking—mathematics, logic, even some religions and belief systems—have found ways to bring order to a chaotic world. Pyramids, trains, electric cars, nuclear reactors, are all the result of these different systems. But art—music, sculpture, dance, cooking (a delicious blend of art [taste], physics and chemistry), etc.—is subjective.

We have rules for chord sequences, rules to develop a fugue, etc., but the values that lie underneath the rules are subjective and based on preference, not logic. We tell ourselves that a classical trombone should sound like x and not y or z NOT because x is right and y or z are wrong, but because x is what history has chosen over the years based on preference and value.

And so, back to rubber bumpers—what do you prefer? Do you notice a difference? If so, what is it? Can you still sound how you want to sound with it on? Why or why not?

…

I didn’t intend for this to be a second lecture/disquisition/rant… I tend to dwell in philosophy and aesthetics.

BTW, I don’t use hand grips either. I use a Get-a-Grip on my horns, and often an ErgoBone on my bass. I’ll experiment with removing my leather pencil holders to get that extra 1%!!

[Matt K]

You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.

[ssking2b]

Several of us in the early 2000s started a thread about exactly this as a joke on the old Trombone-L list. People argued and fought over this in the most ridiculous fashion. The only conclusion reachable from reading peoples reactions and positions on it was…It’s pretty much Dumbo’s crow feather. On or off whatever works for you is OK. It was entertaining to read people’s adamant arguments!

[BGuttman]

I still think we should replace the bumper with bayonet mounts for defense.

[SimmonsTrombone]

I still think we should replace the bumper with bayonet mounts for defense.

Back in my youth, I played in some night clubs where I could have used that.

[timothy42b]

You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.

[Kbiggs]

You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. …

The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.

Yes, that’s what I meant by using the scare quotes.

(Perhaps that should be “scare quotes,” or even “quasi quotes.”)

[elmsandr]

You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.

I prefer more than a triangle… take it out to a full attribute Gage Repeatability study. But almost nothing passes those on borderline cases.

Cheers,
Andy

[BGuttman]

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.

I prefer more than a triangle… take it out to a full attribute Gage Repeatability study. But almost nothing passes those on borderline cases.

Cheers,
Andy

This is all well and good, but you are talking about an incredibly expensive experiment for a very small bit of knowledge. Maybe one of our student friends who is also skilled in Statistics could try this in a trombone studio, but to run a true independent test would cost tens of thousands of dollars for the administration and evaluation.

Given that nobody's going to pay this amount of money for such a trivial question, I think it will remain a philosophical exercise, like determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[baileyman]

... for such a trivial question...

Dang, Bruce, you'll need double blind for sure!

[Jpl]

Well, what a coincidence to find there is thread about it. I just bought an old king 606. As I was playing with it for the first time, plain and happy with the sound, found out the stopper was missing so i added an o-ring from the stock i had. Rigth there I notice the sound was not as vibrant and that the trombone was not as responsive. Not day and nigth, but just the small difference that keeps you playing if without the bumber! I am not an expert at all, hence the reason for buying a student model, but i can tell the difference on that one. Not sure i would see the same difference on my other trombone though as it has a darker sound from the start, and not as responsive (yahama ysl-356, the one with an F trigger, AND made of red brass). And yes that is hearing it from behind the bell, but, as i am playing for my own pleasure ...that counts! Now, wondering if a small thing like that can make a difference what about the grease vs oil we put on the slide?

[Jpl]

Now my next question is how the hell can i remove it as it is deep and hardly accessible. Thx!

[BGuttman]

Well, what a coincidence to find there is thread about it. I just bought an old king 606. As I was playing with it for the first time, plain and happy with the sound, found out the stopper was missing so i added an o-ring from the stock i had. Rigth there I notice the sound was not as vibrant and that the trombone was not as responsive. Not day and nigth, but just the small difference that keeps you playing if without the bumber! I am not an expert at all, hence the reason for buying a student model, but i can tell the difference on that one. Not sure i would see the same difference on my other trombone though as it has a darker sound from the start, and not as responsive (yahama ysl-356, the one with an F trigger, AND made of red brass). And yes that is hearing it from behind the bell, but, as i am playing for my own pleasure ...that counts! Now, wondering if a small thing like that can make a difference what about the grease vs oil we put on the slide?

Are we talking about the same thing? The slide end bumper is a rubber knob on the end of the slide. Usually mounted on a small post.

You are describing something else entirely. What are you concerned about? Maybe a picture to show your problem?

[Posaunus]

Now my next question is how the hell can i remove it as it is deep and hardly accessible. Thx!

This thread was about the nipple-like rubber bumper tip at the water-valve end of the slide.

I think the bumper you are having trouble with is the cork barrel bumper at the mouthpiece end of the slide.
Apparently you have inserted an O-ring as a stop-gap, and now cannot remove it. This bumper is easily replaced by a trombone technician with a special tool; the technician would probably use as a replacement an inexpensive special bumper made of cork (though possibly rubber) - not an O-ring. Worth a quick visit to your tech.

[whitbey]

At a workshop several years ago talking about how everything can change a horn. So I ended up being the person playing so others could judge if the rubber bumper changed the sound.

After a few tries, the rubber bumper fell under the outdoors deck in the woods lost in the leaves forever.

Decided it sounded better without the bumper.

Put one on when I got home.

[BigBadandBass]

Every little variable will do something and change something. Personally I don’t use a bumper, leathers or a pencil holder and the only left hand support I trust is the inbuilt one on my shires.

If we want to go one step further, I regularly clean all the tarnish off the raw brass on my bell because it plays better without it…..

[20posaunen]

5-6 years ago, I requested ~10 sample packs of various rubber nipple sizes and shapes from a rubber company.
They sent them and I have experimented at length over many sessions in different spaces with the different sizes and shapes of bumpers using several high-end horns of different brands and sizes. These are each horns I played for at least a hundred hours; I was accustomed to their “feel.”

Almost all the different combinations were noticeable to me in immediate back-to-back comparisons, but not always to the same extent. Some horns felt especially sensitive to these changes, including my Thein Universals (tenor and bass, both with Hagmanns). Every bumper on the Theins felt noticeably different in the player feedback & I settled on the same one in several different trials.
On Shires large tenors, having or not having a bumper made a much more noticeable difference than the specific bumper.
On my M&W trombones, on the slides with nickel-silver crooks I find they play best with the stock conn-style rubber bumper. It seems to make them have a more consistent/intuitive response to articulations as the dynamics change. My all-brass M&W slide (notably heavier outer) shows no significant change when changing bumpers, but I prefer the response of that slide without a bumper.
On my Edwards Alessi model (yellow crook), I also preferred it without a bumper. This horn is what started the whole series of experiments, especially since it has a sort of built-in vibrational impedance adjuster…. The more I played that horn, the more I preferred it with no pillars, just for the record.
I found that the superlight Bach LT12 handslide felt/centered differently with the big rubber bumper, but I can’t remember which way I chose to play it.
My Conn 60Hs, with their heavier TIS slides, seem to play well with or without bumpers and I haven’t noticed much difference between bumper sizes. I play them without a bumper, though, and find no noticeable benefits to the bumper (besides keeping the slide still on the floor while adding yamasnot).
I also now have an epic gold-brass Haag with independent progressive Hagmann bass (formerly played in Seattle symphony) that has a relatively lightweight, extra-wide, nickel-silver outer slide with gold brass crook. I find it responds more consistently to varied input with one of 2-3 different bumpers, as opposed to no bumper. I picked the same favorite in multiple tests, but it’s a negligible difference for me. FWIW, I have, by far, the least playing time on that instrument (probably less than 20 hrs), since I only recently got it & have 4 other basses.

I didn’t record myself to try and hear the difference. I feel confident that the Theins would exhibit a slight, but audible change in sound, but I’m not so sure about that for the other horns. I have recorded audible changes to my M&W trombones with different valve caps weights. Changing the mass there significantly changes the horn’s “liveliness” (or, overtone response/brilliance) relative to the dynamic spectrum - adding mass gives the perception of increasing the bottom end (EQ-wise) of the sound and holding off the brilliance/edge until a higher dynamic level.

Some thoughts in conclusion: Everything you change makes SOME difference, though the difference may be negligible. On average, I noticed that slides with more mass seem less affected/changed by the addition or absence of a rubber slide bumper. Those horns usually seem to exhibit a smaller/negligible change when comparing different rubber bumpers.
On average, horns with lightweight slides (and/or more nickel-silver content in the outer slide, especially the crook) tend to exhibit a notable change in feel between using a bumper or not. Sometimes, those horns exhibit a notable change between different bumpers, but that is not a consistent pattern.
Excepting the Thein Universal tenor, all the tested slides with all-yellow brass outer slides (including crook) played/responded most consistently and enjoyably without a rubber bumper installed.

Disclaimer: A change to the inner dimensions of the instrument at any point, but especially as you get closer to the leadpipe and mouthpiece/face, will have a significantly greater influence on the feel and sound of the instrument. The bumper’s influence is quite small in comparison.

Anyway, there it is; Take it or leave it! Play what you sound best on and helps you enjoy making music!
I enjoy tinkering, so this ongoing experiment has been fun for me. But, in my case, it does not take me out of my music-first mentality. These little details should never distract from the end goal of making our best music.
And rubber bumpers certainly aren’t important enough to cause arguments (online or otherwise)!

[officermayo]

I'm beginning to think some of y'all have been eating your bumpers.

[Blabberbucket]

I'm beginning to think some of y'all have been eating your bumpers.

A healthy part of your balanced practice session!

I found that layering multiple bumpers on my 1666 Sterling Silver Sackbut makes me sound more like J. Alessi when I play Bolero.