maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

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kenton
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maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:59 pm

I'm considering putting a carbon fibre outer slide on my bass trombone. The makers say that it needs to be kept dry to stay working well.

So, I'm looking for players who have a carbon fibre slide. How finicky is it? Is it a problem keeping it working well in a session?

Thanks
Kenton
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elmsandr
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by elmsandr » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:26 am

Not too finicky. Just keep it mostly clean. A swab every now and then will keep it fine. You will notice that when it gets dirty and sticky it will take force to move it. However, if you grab a regular slide you will realize that even dirty it takes less force than moving a normal slide.

Definitely an adjustment, but keeping it clean has been no more difficult than a normal slide.

Cheers,
Andy
timothy42b
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by timothy42b » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:47 am

My pBone mini slide does a similar thing. Dry it's not bad, but as soon as breath condenses or spit accumulates there is a suction feeling drag. I yank the slide off and dry the inner slide about every three minutes. Of course with the shorter alto slides that's not difficult, it would be hard on a full size.
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:51 am

That was the source of my question. I have a pbone, and keeping the slide working smoothly is annoying.
JCBone
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by JCBone » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:23 am

I was never able to get my pbone slide working. I guess I didn't properly wear it in and now it's pretty much stuck like this for ever.
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:01 am

Butler talks about using BERP biolube lubricant on the stockings. And, also using pure Carnauba wax on the inner and outer slides. I might try those options on the pbone first and see how effective it is.
bigbandbone
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by bigbandbone » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:25 am

What does Butler suggest in regaurs to maintaining their slides?
Posaunus
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by Posaunus » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:49 am

Please don't confuse carbon fiber slides (from Butler) with pBone slides, which are plastic (definitely NOT carbon fiber), with brass stockings. They're both black and non-metallic, but the similarity stops there.

They may require different lubrication.
JCBone
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by JCBone » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:15 am

Posaunus wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:49 am
Please don't confuse carbon fiber slides (from Butler) with pBone slides, which are plastic (definitely NOT carbon fiber), with brass stockings. They're both black and non-metallic, but the similarity stops there.

They may require different lubrication.
I'm pretty sure that pbone inners are carbon fiber but I may be wrong.
Peacemate
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by Peacemate » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:26 am

JCBone wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:15 am
I'm pretty sure that pbone inners are carbon fiber but I may be wrong.
Pbones have plastic outers with what seems to be raw brass stockings over the plastic inner tubes.

Butler trombones use stock inner slides, so they really aren't that similar.
Student in Sweden, usually looking for more trombones
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:33 pm

Here is Butler's commentary on maintenance: http://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=1008

I realize that the pbone and the carbon fibre handslides are not using the same materials, but, they both are using metal sleeves in a non metal outer tube. So, it seems at least plausible that a lubrication that works for one, might have a chance with the other. Additionally, the BERP product is supposed to work well with a standard slide.

In any case, it is worth experimenting.
timothy42b
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by timothy42b » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:18 pm

pBone slide crooks and braces are injection molded plastic.

But inner and outer slides are fiber reinforced resin, same basic principle as the carbon fiber.

Wax on the brass stocking is critical because otherwise it quickly corrodes and drags. You do have to occasionally polish. If you did that when new (i didn't) you could probably avoid some problems. Mine also had a sharp edge on the brass that need careful filing.
2bobone
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by 2bobone » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:18 pm

I have a Butler C-12 bass and have tried all of Dave Butler's suggestions for keeping the slide working at its best. I've tried carnuba wax, Berp slide lube and even Yamasnot. The trick is to keep ANY moisture from accumulating. I decided to outfit my slide with a "JoyKey" which allows almost zero accumulation of water in the slide because it is in a constant state of draining. An occasional wipe with a toweled rod and it has excellent action. The disadvantage is the water constantly spraying off the end of the slide which could alienate players who are unfortunate enough to be in front of you. Andrew Joy, inventor of the "JoyKey" makes an "SOB" which is nothing more than a rubber ball which fits over the "JoyKey" that collects the water for later disposal. A great solution !
Posaunus
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by Posaunus » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:30 pm

Wow. Lots of confusion here. As I understand it:

Butler slides: CFRP [carbon fiber reinforced polymer composite] outer slides;
Chrome-plated nickel-silver inner slides (just like your brass trombone);

pBone and Tromba slides: ABS plastic outer slides;
Fiberglass-reinforced (?) ABS resin inner slides, with raw brass stockings.
Definitely not carbon fiber, which is a different animal than fiberglass, and much more expensive to fabricate.

So … the lubrication requirements are necessarily somewhat different:
Butler: Carbon fiber sliding over nickel-plated brass tubes and stockings
pBone / Tromba: ABS plastic sliding over raw brass stockings / fiberglass plastic tubes

It's clear from picking up any of these slides - they feel VERY different!

Butler recommends carnauba wax for their slides.
For pBone, it makes sense to at least smooth and wax the raw brass stockings.

After that, Butler recommends the BERP lubricant (only on the stockings) and no water for their slides.
pBone lube recommendations have been variable; don't know their latest.
I've never seen a silky smooth pBone slide.
timothy42b
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by timothy42b » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:26 am

So the entire Butler inner is metal? didn't know that.

pBone slides can be pretty slick right after waxing but for me it doesn't last. List member Phillip is very good at it though, his work well. They get sticky with moisture, it feels like suction. But the light weight makes them usable anyway.
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:54 am

I tried BERP on my Pbone last night. It seems to work well initially, After a couple of songs, it started dragging just a bit. Wiping the inner slide with just my hand seemed to work pretty well. And, I also tried putting a rod with cloth on the end, and running that down the hand slide and that also seemed to work well. I don't currently have any carnauba wax (but it is on order). I'm curious how it will work on the pbone. I would be nice to have a swabbing rod like bassoon players have to keep handy.

I understand that B.A,C also makes carbon fibre slides. Has anyone had any experience with their product?
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elmsandr
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by elmsandr » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:32 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:26 am
So the entire Butler inner is metal? didn't know that.
It is an entirely conventional inner slide. Mine happens to be interchangeable with my Bach 50 inners.

Returning to topic.. I have used both the Bio-lube provided and a trombontine/silicone drops that I use on normal horns. After a few cleanings and dryings, I forget what is even on it now... Not playing a ton during the pandemic, but if I pick this up and it is dragging, I just hit the outer with the swab, put it back on and keep playing. When it builds up a bunch of water, drain the water key, maybe swab it out, and keep going. This is to say I do not find it a particularly finicky piece of equipment. It did take several cleanings to get rid of some scratchiness, but it now seems to require less maintenance than my brass slides.

Cheers,
Andy
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm

Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.
Posaunus
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by Posaunus » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:52 pm

kenton wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm
Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.
Slide-O-Mix towel sheath?
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:03 pm

Thanks for the recommendation! It is now on order.
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elmsandr
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by elmsandr » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:06 am

kenton wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm
Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.
Have both a standard cleaning rod with cheesecloth and the cleaning rod with the slideomix sock style thing that came with the slide from Butler. Grab whichever one is closer.

This thing really does just seem to want to be clean and dry.

Cheers,
Andy
kenton
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Re: maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

Post by kenton » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:13 pm

I figured I better report back in. I ordered some carnauba & Bees wax paste. Working on the Pbone, I polished up the metal sleeves and then I put the wax on the inner outer slide and the outside inner slide. The results are impressive. The slide is faster than it has ever been and unlike before when I might get through one song before it started dragging, I played through 4 songs and is still fine.
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