Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

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afugate
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Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by afugate » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:35 am

I play an older Eastman Shires as my primary large bore horn. Plays well for my level of playing. When they were being closed out, I bought a second one at a very good price, keeping it in reserve for my daughter, who also plays trombone.

She's a King player. Her primary horn is a 3BF Silversonic. She also plays my 3B+ more than I do these days. And she has her own Duo Gravis. So, she digs the sound and the blow of King horns.

With a lead pipe change, we've got the blow so it's fine for her. But she hates playing the Eastman because the fifth partial (D-A flat) plays so differently than on King horns. (There are other partials that also play differently, but she's mostly bugged by this one, the 6th partial and the 9th.)

I seem to recall reading someplace on the old forums a thread or two about different tuning slides and the effects on partials.

Does anyone have any suggestions -- besides buy her a 4B or Benge 190? She didn't like the ergonomics of the 165F.

TIA,
--Andy in OKC
tbonesullivan
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by tbonesullivan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:31 am

I feel your pain. Different horn designs have the partials line up differently. With Bach horns sometimes different examples of the same model may be a bit different.

What size mouthpiece are they using? That can also affect the blow and partials.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:44 am

If you know other players with Shires horns, see if she can try their tuning slides. And other eadpipes.

Or just get used to it. Anybody who plays different brands and sizes has to learn the adjustments.
TheBoneRanger
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by TheBoneRanger » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:42 pm

You want the “X” tuning slide. That will put that partial back where it is on most other horns.

Andrew
Thrawn22
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by Thrawn22 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:06 pm

Kings and Eastmans to me are completely different ideas on how trombones should be designed/played. You put their design differences and add the fact you're talking about large bore trombone blowing to med./small bore blowing and of course theres going to be differences in how they slot.

Devote more time to the Eastman and you may get a rangle on the issue.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:58 pm

Are you sure that its the difference in that one partial, and not the overall placement of the bell / length of the slide on a King 3B? That's usually the partial where you notice that something is up with the 3B and begin wondering why your C is miles in front of the bell. But, since she's used to the king, she might be wondering why her C is not where she expects it to be on the Eastman. How far has she got the tuning slide pulled on the King vs. the Eastman? If there's a big difference between the two, I'd say that the problem isn't so much a partials problem, but a general difference in how long the slide is on a king and where the bell is.

I propose an experiment with a tuner.

1. Tune each horn to have Ab in tune with the slide directly in line with the bell. Even if you think tuning like this is a bad idea, try it for this experiment.
2. With the tuner, check to see how far out from the cork barrels Bb is on both horns. I suspect it would be about 1 inch on the large bore and 2-2.5 inches on the king.
3. Do the same thing with C in 3rd. You will likely find that the C lines up much closer to the bell on both horns.
4. Now tune both to have Bb in tune with the slide all the way closed. You will probably notice the tuning slide is pulled out an inch or more on the Eastman, and 2 or more inches on the king. Hmmm...
5. Test your 3rd position Ab and C on both. C will likely be pulled in an incredible amount in front of the bell on the king.

If the problem is wanting the distance between a closed Bb and an Ab to be the same in relation to the bell on both horns, it's impossible. And a tuning slide won't fix that.
RichEKelly
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by RichEKelly » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 pm

many people don't tube their horns to a closed 1st position B flat, especially since its tough to reach that spot during a fast run without bumping your mouth. You can tune 3rd position A flat or C so that it is in roughly the same spot in relation to the bell using the tuning slide on each different horn and make everything else relative to that note. Or like many have adopted, push the tuning slide all the way in on each horn and tune with your ear and right hand.
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by baileyman » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:32 pm

RichEKelly wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 pm
... Or like many have adopted, push the tuning slide all the way in on each horn and tune with your ear and right hand.
:good:
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harrisonreed
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:05 am

Trying to stay on the topic at hand, I'm not trying to push a way of tuning, but suggesting an experiment to show just how different the position of the bells are between those two horns. The player might think its a partial thing but in reality might just be thrown by the position of the bell. This difference really comes to the fore in the D to Ab partial, which is what the OP said was the problem partial.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:08 am

The 3B bell is definitely much farther out than a typical large tenor. Not something you can rely on with your fingers or sight.
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by GabeLangfur » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:40 am

In this case, it is a partial thing. As Andrew suggests, the Shires X tuning slide will put that D partial in a more familiar place. It might not fit exactly without a little tweaking.
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afugate
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by afugate » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:39 am

TheBoneRanger wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:42 pm
You want the “X” tuning slide. That will put that partial back where it is on most other horns.

Andrew
GabeLangfur wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:40 am
In this case, it is a partial thing. As Andrew suggests, the Shires X tuning slide will put that D partial in a more familiar place. It might not fit exactly without a little tweaking.
Thanks, guys. This is what I had vaguely remembered. :good: Now to keep my eyes peeled for an "X" tuning slide in the classifieds.

--Andy in OKC
afugate
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Re: Changing the intonation characteristics of partials on a horn

Post by afugate » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:46 am

And thank you to everyone else who chimed in.

FYI, for those worried about sight or touch playing on her part, that was one of the first things I taught her to avoid. She plays by muscle memory - playing in the dark or in a dimly lit pit isn't a problem for her. But she does so on King horns. (She plays multiple - 3BF, 3B+, and Duo Gravis.)

Chops aren't really much of an issue for her either. She plays higher on the horn than her teacher, Dr. Wagner at the University of Oklahoma. And she has no problem playing big, beautiful false tones chromatically down to pedal b-flat. #prouddad

It's the fifth partial that really is quite different between the King horns and the Eastman Shires. As I noted in the previous comment, I'm going to look for an "X" tuning slide to see if that puts things in a more familiar place for her.

--Andy in OKC
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