King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

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JLivi
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King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by JLivi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:33 am

I have a King 3BF and the valve is just absolutely horrible. When I blow air into the horn (not making a sound) and then press the valve down you can feel and hear how much the air is getting compressed inside the horn. Not that I often need to play Low F's (and lower), but it'd be nice to if the valve was more open.

Is it worth it to even try to open up a 3BF rotor or should I just assume that it wasn't meant to play those lower trigger notes and move on with my life?

Secondly, I'm looking to have the bracing on the bell looked at to see if there's a better way to support the tubes and get a more resonant sound. Anyone ever play around with this before?

I'm fortunate to have an amazing tech in my area, Dana Hofer, and I'll be taking the bell to him next week to get the bell looked at. He'll give me his opinion on what he thinks will work best. Below is a link to his services to see what he's doing with edge style bracing and opening up the valves.

https://www.danahoferbrassrepair.com/services/trombone

I'm sure it's not new to most of you, but I've always been a straight horn player. Only recently (last 2 years) have I been using the 3BF for wedding gigs and teaching lessons. I don't like the valve, but it really does help me get through a lot of things in those situations. And of course band directors & students listen with their eyes and prefer you have a horn with a valve :idk:

Any insight would be greatly appreciated
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Finetales
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by Finetales » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:39 am

It sounds to me like there could be something wrong with your valve if it feels that restrictive. The valve on my 3BF is no Thayer, but it has no problem belting out low Cs or any other trigger note. I've used it to cover bari sax parts on wedding gigs plenty and the valve was never an issue.
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Burgerbob
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:48 am

+1 on finetales. Mine feels great. Actually more even and "open" (for the size of the horn) than my 42B.

It does take some finesse and getting used to, not something you can gorilla into submission.
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by JLivi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:25 pm

Finetales wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:39 am
It sounds to me like there could be something wrong with your valve if it feels that restrictive. The valve on my 3BF is no Thayer, but it has no problem belting out low Cs or any other trigger note. I've used it to cover bari sax parts on wedding gigs plenty and the valve was never an issue.
Interesting! Either way it sounds like I need to get it looked at.
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Matt K
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by Matt K » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:52 pm

100% agree. I had a 3BF that I foolishly sold that had one of the best ranges on any horn I've ever had. My current 3BF has a pretty killer low range too.

I was thinking about open wrapping it, not because I particularly like the looks or feeling of an open wrap over a closed wrap, but so that I could turn it into a convertible G valve. I was about to ask in a few days if anyone knew where I could get a .530 bend that was a little wider than the stock tubes :lol:

That said, I think it look slike if you took the "U" shaped bend on the bottom of the loop and cut it in half, you could probably eliminate the 2nd loop and make it a Gb valve. The wrap would be similar to the Shires "C" style open wrap but way narrower. I might do taht but cut down enough for the G. I've gotten hooked on the G valve ever since I had my bass configured that way.

Sidenote, I do have a spare Tempo 530 valve section that I coudl sell you if you needed tubing and/or rotor parts. I need to dig it out but feel free to PM me about it. AFAIK it's identical to the newer 3B ones
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by JLivi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:41 pm

Finetales wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:39 am
. The valve on my 3BF is no Thayer, but it has no problem belting out low Cs or any other trigger note. I've used it to cover bari sax parts on wedding gigs plenty and the valve was never an issue.
Burgerbob wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:48 am
+1 on finetales. Mine feels great. Actually more even and "open" (for the size of the horn) than my 42B.

It does take some finesse and getting used to, not something you can gorilla into submission.
How much of a difference in feel to you have between low F & E in 6/7 vs trigger 1/2?
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by BGuttman » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:51 pm

Matt K wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:52 pm
100% agree. I had a 3BF that I foolishly sold that had one of the best ranges on any horn I've ever had. My current 3BF has a pretty killer low range too.

I was thinking about open wrapping it, not because I particularly like the looks or feeling of an open wrap over a closed wrap, but so that I could turn it into a convertible G valve. I was about to ask in a few days if anyone knew where I could get a .530 bend that was a little wider than the stock tubes :lol:

That said, I think it look slike if you took the "U" shaped bend on the bottom of the loop and cut it in half, you could probably eliminate the 2nd loop and make it a Gb valve. The wrap would be similar to the Shires "C" style open wrap but way narrower. I might do taht but cut down enough for the G. I've gotten hooked on the G valve ever since I had my bass configured that way.

Sidenote, I do have a spare Tempo 530 valve section that I coudl sell you if you needed tubing and/or rotor parts. I need to dig it out but feel free to PM me about it. AFAIK it's identical to the newer 3B ones
Anthony Cecena was able to convert his King 3B, 4B, and 5B attachments to G by simply removing both loops and putting the short one between the two legs that go directly into the valve (vertically as you hold the horn). I tried this on my 4B and found that it was possible if I removed the brace from the main tuning slide. Otherwise there was an interference. I decided it wasn't worth it.

Curiously, by swapping tuning slides between F and Gb on my King 7B I was able to convert it to F/F. Don't know what I'd do with such a tuning.
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Matt K
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by Matt K » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:23 pm

Alas, mine are too narrow for that. I think King changed the way they did their wraps at some point. Good to know that it's about the right length for that, I haven't bothered to get out a piece of string and measure
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:31 pm

JLivi wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:41 pm

How much of a difference in feel to you have between low F & E in 6/7 vs trigger 1/2?
Excuse my playing, nothing but large tenor the last week or so and a dry slide. Hopefully this gives you an idea-

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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:39 pm

My 3B from 1969 has a very open playing valve. I have no issues even playing pedals on the F side. The new models have even larger valves.

Yours is either defective, or you just don't know how to use a valve in that register after preferring straight horns your whole life. Since you mention the air pressure issue, it's gotta be the valve!
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Re: King 3BF open up valve & edge style bracing

Post by JLivi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 pm

Thanks for the video Aidan! I'm going to mess with this exercise. I've been rocking the Alan Raph Trigger Notes Exercise.

For Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikuXR_MU3KI
harrisonreed wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:39 pm
Yours is either defective, or you just don't know how to use a valve in that register after preferring straight horns your whole life. Since you mention the air pressure issue, it's gotta be the valve!
It's possible I'm doing something weird, but I definitely feel a big difference with the air. I'm going to take the bell in to get looked at on Monday. It's also possible the valve could need a good cleaning too.
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