Pulling a leadpipe: how?

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Amconk
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Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Amconk » Sat May 02, 2020 6:48 pm

So my soldering skills have improved enough over the years that I’m pretty comfortable doing most repairs on my horns. But I’ve never pulled a leadpipe. I have a horn I’d like to try it on, but I obviously don’t want to destroy it in the process. I’ve got a few old slides I could practice on.

What’s the procedure that techs usually follow? Can you insert a wooden dowel from underneath and push the leadpipe out while applying heat at the cork barrel? How much solder is usually there? Does it go a ways down or usually just at the top? Any advice other than “don’t” would be appreciated.

Cheers!
Mike
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Thrawn22 » Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 pm

The way i was shown is a small mandrel type rod goes in at the end of the pipe. Aftee you heat the mpc end tbe solder should be liquid or soft enough for the mandrel to push the pipe out when you tip the slide so gravity and weight do the work.

Works in theory. On older slides, more often than naught, the pipe doesn't give and the mandrel flattens the venturi out, leaving the tech no choice but to gut the pioe out.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Mon May 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Solder is only at the top. The problem is the pipe is usually corroded in place, so it's very easy to melt the solder at the receiver end but extremely difficult to free the other end of the pipe from the inside wall of the slide tube. There is a steel tool that you can buy from Allied or Ferree's that fits inside the leadpipe. The top half is a smaller diameter than the venturi, then a relief cut to a larger diameter. The smaller diameter part slips through the leadpipe and sticks out the top so you can either put it in a vise and pull the slide tube off, or push it through from the back with a long rod. Very easy to destroy your leadpipe and/or slide tube if you don't know what you're doing. I never tried a wood dowel. I have a feeling that wouldn't work.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Bonearzt » Tue May 05, 2020 9:43 am

IMHO, trying to push the pipe out will crimp the end and force it into the inner tube screwing up both.

I use a drum stick in the vise, heat the receiver end and force the tube onto the drumstick turning as I push. Sometimes you need to "burn" the corrosion between the lead pipe & inner tube to release it.

Sometimes it works, sometimes no. never can tell until you start blazing away!!


Eric
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Amconk » Tue May 05, 2020 10:18 pm

Darn, I’m good!
69F21D3F-1D3A-47BA-B333-FAAF2064BC5F.jpeg
69F21D3F-1D3A-47BA-B333-FAAF2064BC5F.jpeg (3.22 MiB) Viewed 2428 times
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by bigbandbone » Wed May 06, 2020 7:26 am

Found on YouTube. This is how I used to do it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=958j0b5owEs
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Amconk » Wed May 06, 2020 9:15 pm

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Success! I pulled the original, and cleaned it up and soldered a ring at the top. Made sure the inside of the cork barrel was nice and clean, checked the slide alignment, and put it all back together. Now I can use press fit pipes in my 7B clone. I want to try a MK50 or MV50. The stock leadpipe has very little Venturi.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Bonearzt » Thu May 07, 2020 8:59 am

Amconk wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 9:15 pm
633AE81D-8926-465A-809B-D58104064DC3.jpeg3E1A3364-4888-4AFD-957E-EE72082AA706.jpeg037339E9-D475-456B-98DA-899C5C1274F3.jpegSuccess! I pulled the original, and cleaned it up and soldered a ring at the top. Made sure the inside of the cork barrel was nice and clean, checked the slide alignment, and put it all back together. Now I can use press fit pipes in my 7B clone. I want to try a MK50 or MV50. The stock leadpipe has very little Venturi.
Nice!!
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by ithinknot » Tue May 04, 2021 9:57 am

Just did my first. A bargain, and otherwise pristine, Corp LT16M that had suffered a cleaning rod accident at the hands of some previous owner - the leadpipe end was all chewed up, and condensation would build up in the resulting gaps, releasing itself in random spitty death rattles.

Thought I'd combine the idea of the pullable reverse taper mandrel with a shank insert to directly transfer heat to the relevant area. The brass plug (sort of bullet shaped, in the hope that it grabs on the curve, rather than digging in hard with an upper or lower edge) and threaded rod are fed in from below. The junk mouthpiece is drilled out for the threaded rod (and cut a little shorter just in case the tapered plug came up so far into the venturi that they might have come into contact - not necessary, as it turned out). The mouthpiece is then fitted, and the plug is tightened up with the wingnut and washer making a solid pullable unit.

Clamped in vise, 45 seconds of heating the main body of the mouthpiece, worked perfectly. Possibly helped that I'd plugged the inner tube in advance and given it a reasonably long vinegar soak in the hope of dissolving any corrosion, cheeto dust stalactites (it's only a stalagmite if it's in the lower inner) or other calcified horrors. Reshaped leadpipe, fitted a ring, cleaned and polished slide tube.

Usual 'consenting adults' caveats - destroyed slide, leadpipe in eye, cat set alight.

leadpipe.jpg
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Crazy4Tbone86
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm

Very interesting concept. The thing I like about your design is that the "slug" that you have held by a nut at the end of the rod could potentially be changed to different-sized slugs. Thus, the tech could have various slugs that fit perfectly into an assortment of leadpipes.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by ithinknot » Tue May 04, 2021 3:08 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm
Very interesting concept. The thing I like about your design is that the "slug" that you have held by a nut at the end of the rod could potentially be changed to different-sized slugs. Thus, the tech could have various slugs that fit perfectly into an assortment of leadpipes.
Yes, just need small and large shank junk mouthpieces, and you could easily make a custom 'slug' for any project - especially when you're hoping to save the leadpipe itself. (In this case, that wasn't a priority, but it survived regardless!) You know the likely entry diameter, based on slide bore and approx. leadpipe wall thickness, you can measure the venturi, and the curved taper is common sense.

The commercially-available reverse tapered mandrel is fine, I'm sure, and retains plenty of heat, but not in the exact spot required, whereas the mouthpiece gets it to the right place quickly, and holds it nearby, so you might get a longer working window. I guess the mass of the mandrel, with the heat transferred further down the leadpipe, might be advantageous if you're having to 'burn out' corrosion as Eric mentioned above. Dunno.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Sweaty » Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm

Amconk,

I had my leadpipe pulled (by a pro) on my 7B clone and replaced by a seamed nickel-silver MV50. It made a huge difference. All of a sudden, the horn responded the way it should. I know the cost of the pipe is way out of proportion to the cost of the horn, but the total cost is still reasonable for a good horn. I can still resell the pipe when necessary.
Last edited by Sweaty on Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Tue May 04, 2021 7:01 pm

Sweaty wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm
Amconk,

I had my leadpipe pulled (by a pro) on my 7B clone and replaced by a seamed nickel-silver MV50. It made huge difference. All of a sudden, the horn responded the way it should. I know the cost of the pipe is way out of proportion to the cost of the horn, but the total cost is still reasonable for a good horn. I can still resell the pipe when necessary.
I don't make seamed nickel pipes anymore. It was too difficult and I was spending all my time doing it at the expense of everything else. You could probably get a lot of money for that since they're no longer available.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Tue May 04, 2021 7:05 pm

Bonearzt wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:43 am
IMHO, trying to push the pipe out will crimp the end and force it into the inner tube screwing up both.

Eric
Well you would never push on the leadpipe itself, you would push on the back of the tool, and the relief cut allows the tool to push on the venturi. I never had much luck trying to insert anything tapered into the mouthpiece end, because when you pull in the direction of removing the leadpipe, your tapered tool simply slips out of the leadpipe. If you're pushing from behind, it can't slip out. It's essentially the same as what ithinknot did, except he pushed from behind with 2 nuts, the nuts being pulled on a rod from the front. The force still comes from behind the leadpipe, though. The other advantage is you can use small blows to break the pipe free rather than relying solely on a twisting motion.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by harrisonreed » Tue May 04, 2021 7:58 pm

Why is that mouthpiece sitting 8 miles out of the pipe like that?
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Bonearzt » Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 pm

brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:05 pm
Bonearzt wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:43 am
IMHO, trying to push the pipe out will crimp the end and force it into the inner tube screwing up both.

Eric
Well you would never push on the leadpipe itself, you would push on the back of the tool, and the relief cut allows the tool to push on the venturi. I never had much luck trying to insert anything tapered into the mouthpiece end, because when you pull in the direction of removing the leadpipe, your tapered tool simply slips out of the leadpipe. If you're pushing from behind, it can't slip out. It's essentially the same as what ithinknot did, except he pushed from behind with 2 nuts, the nuts being pulled on a rod from the front. The force still comes from behind the leadpipe, though. The other advantage is you can use small blows to break the pipe free rather than relying solely on a twisting motion.
I went back & reread your initial post and I misunderstood your description thinking you were pushing the leadpipe out through the stocking end...Oops!

Your jig is interesting! My only concern would be the possible damage/change to the venturi if too much force was exerted trying to pull.

Eric
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Tue May 04, 2021 8:49 pm

Bonearzt wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 pm
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:05 pm

Well you would never push on the leadpipe itself, you would push on the back of the tool, and the relief cut allows the tool to push on the venturi. I never had much luck trying to insert anything tapered into the mouthpiece end, because when you pull in the direction of removing the leadpipe, your tapered tool simply slips out of the leadpipe. If you're pushing from behind, it can't slip out. It's essentially the same as what ithinknot did, except he pushed from behind with 2 nuts, the nuts being pulled on a rod from the front. The force still comes from behind the leadpipe, though. The other advantage is you can use small blows to break the pipe free rather than relying solely on a twisting motion.
I went back & reread your initial post and I misunderstood your description thinking you were pushing the leadpipe out through the stocking end...Oops!

Your jig is interesting! My only concern would be the possible damage/change to the venturi if too much force was exerted trying to pull.

Eric
Oh, I see. Yeah, I don't think that would work very well. Not only what you said but the end of the stockings are often rounded a bit so the pipe might not fit through.

That's not my jig, that's user "Ithinknot".
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 pm

Why would you not push (or pull) using a plug close to the bore size of the slide tube? I know the stocking end is typically crimped down a bit, but for example on a .547 horn you could use a plug around .542-.544 instead of trying to catch the inside of the leadpipe's taper.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 pm

Hmm... I looked up the Ferrees tool, and I guess I've been always using it backwards. It does say it's designed to go in from the mouthpiece end. I just never felt like really stubborn leadpipes ever come out without pushing from the back. Anybody else have near 100% success rate twisting it out from the mouthpiece side?

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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by greenbean » Tue May 04, 2021 11:59 pm

I have seen a tech use a "rat's tail" metal file instead of this Ferree's tool. It had fairly fine teeth but I bet it still left marks on the leadpipe. Perhaps not the best method...
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by greenbean » Wed May 05, 2021 12:03 am

I had an early 60s Conn 88H that was a real dog. It just didn't play well. Probably (in part) because the leadpipe had corroded to the point of coming apart. The tech got it out - one piece at a time.

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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by ithinknot » Wed May 05, 2021 1:54 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 pm
Why would you not push (or pull) using a plug close to the bore size of the slide tube? I know the stocking end is typically crimped down a bit, but for example on a .547 horn you could use a plug around .542-.544 instead of trying to catch the inside of the leadpipe's taper.
My reasoning was that the end of the leadpipe is fragile (in this particular case, already rolled inward around some of its circumference), and on older instruments where there may be corrosion/fusing it's going to happen at that far end where the leadpipe is in contact with the inner tube. So applying the force a reasonable distance above that area seems safer. (Give it a squeeze - it's a lot tougher as you approach the venturi.)

If the corroded end left fragments in the tube, it's easy enough to clean them out afterwards. But if you were applying force right at the open end and the whole thing bulged out/cracked/jammed against the inner tube, you might be in bigger trouble, and it'd be quite easy to start pulling out the whole inner, leadpipe intact. Pushing further up, even if the plug were to distort the taper/venturi, it's still not immediately going to lock up against the inner (assuming a normal leadpipe profile where it only contacts at top and bottom).
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by ithinknot » Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 am

brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 pm
Hmm... I looked up the Ferrees tool, and I guess I've been always using it backwards.
I assumed those photos were a mistake made by whoever assembled the catalog. I mean, if it goes in like a mouthpiece, it's just a mouthpiece that's marginally easier to fit in a vise/V-block... and pulls out like one, too.
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:01 pm
I don't make seamed nickel pipes anymore. It was too difficult and I was spending all my time doing it at the expense of everything else.
Just out of interest, what makes nickel such a PITA in this context?
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Wed May 05, 2021 7:40 am

ithinknot wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 am
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 pm
Hmm... I looked up the Ferrees tool, and I guess I've been always using it backwards.
I assumed those photos were a mistake made by whoever assembled the catalog. I mean, if it goes in like a mouthpiece, it's just a mouthpiece that's marginally easier to fit in a vise/V-block... and pulls out like one, too.
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:01 pm
I don't make seamed nickel pipes anymore. It was too difficult and I was spending all my time doing it at the expense of everything else.
Just out of interest, what makes nickel such a PITA in this context?
Nickel silver doesn't stretch very well, so if I took a seamed nickel tube and tried to form it, it would tend to split open at the seam. Many times I would have 2 or 3 failures for one successful leadpipe.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by brassmedic » Wed May 05, 2021 7:44 am

ithinknot wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 am
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 pm
Hmm... I looked up the Ferrees tool, and I guess I've been always using it backwards.
I assumed those photos were a mistake made by whoever assembled the catalog. I mean, if it goes in like a mouthpiece, it's just a mouthpiece that's marginally easier to fit in a vise/V-block... and pulls out like one, too.
That was my thought too, because you would think the longer, smaller diameter part of the tool would go in the vise, otherwise why does it need to be that long? But then I looked in the Allied catalog and their version of the tool also gives instructions to insert it in the mouthpiece end. :idk:
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by elmsandr » Wed May 05, 2021 7:53 am

ithinknot wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 am
brassmedic wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 pm
Hmm... I looked up the Ferrees tool, and I guess I've been always using it backwards.
I assumed those photos were a mistake made by whoever assembled the catalog. I mean, if it goes in like a mouthpiece, it's just a mouthpiece that's marginally easier to fit in a vise/V-block... and pulls out like one, too.
I doubt that; Cliff was a trombone player. This was likely the way HE liked to do it.

It is fun to imagine what he would have said to somebody putting a picture of tool backwards in his catalog...

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by lauriet » Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 pm

Ok. Obvious newby question. Do all trombones have a lead pipe ?
Is that a standard part of construction ?
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by BGuttman » Tue May 11, 2021 10:53 pm

lauriet wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 pm
Ok. Obvious newby question. Do all trombones have a lead pipe ?
Is that a standard part of construction ?
Just about every one made in the last 100 years or so.

Until recently most were soldered in place.

If you can't see how to remove the leadpipe it is soldered in and you should have an expert do it.
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Re: Pulling a leadpipe: how?

Post by Basbasun » Wed May 12, 2021 4:14 am

BGuttman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:53 pm
lauriet wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 pm
Ok. Obvious newby question. Do all trombones have a lead pipe ?
Is that a standard part of construction ?
Just about every one made in the last 100 years or so.

Until recently most were soldered in place.

If you can't see how to remove the leadpipe it is soldered in and you should have an expert do it.
Well, to be sure, 80 years. I did own some olde German trombones, still have two with no lead pipes. I own thre sackbuts, sackbuts never hade lead pipes, som modern "sackbuts" have lead pipes to be more easy for modern trombonists to play. The intonation on trombones without lead pipes can be really wild.
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