Newbie question: Slide drop test?

[berntd]

Hello,
this is my first post. I got a trombone for Christmas!
It is a used Bach TB600.

So I am doing the beginner things from books and videos.

Oh man, Gunhild Carling and others move the slide so effortless and fast!
I find mine quite greasy and somewhat tiresome to try and move fast.

So here is the question fo 'ya all:
If held vertical, how fast should a good slide move from pos1 to pos 7 / floor? (Onto a pillow).

Mine takes a while.

The cream that came with it makes it a lot more draggy/sluggish.

Exoeriments with sewing machine oil helped a lot but it is still a bit draggy in a way.

Anyway, I have nothing to compare to so your help is greatly appreciated.


Regards
Bernt

[BGuttman]

If held vertically the slide should drop as fast as if you just held the outer slide (off the trombone) and dropped it.

Did you use the right stuff to lube the slide? I had one trombone come in with what was clearly a tuning slide grease as "trombone cream".

The other possibility is you just used too much trombone cream. Try wiping it all off and see if the action improves. Also give it a spritz of water.

Finally, if the slide feels scratchy there could be a dent in it. Or it could be misaligned. Those problems need a tech to fix.

Good luck and keep asking questions. Note that you need two posts for anyone else to see your topic. We have a topic that will accept "dummy" posts so you can get your second easily. It's called "I can't see my posts" (or something to that effect).

[TromboneConcerto]

My best guess is that you're using too much slide cream... You only need a tiny tiny bit. And you spread it out with a bit of water in a spray bottle. I'd stay away from the sewing machine oil.... Lol

[baileyman]

As a first pass, wipe the inners clean. It may be there is enough cream on the inside of the outers to provide the lube you need. If it still seems sticky after water spray, wipe again.

Slide require amazingly little lube. Some of mine are darn near dry and they slide pretty well most of the time.

[imsevimse]

Wipe the slide clean and try with just water. Keep wiping the slide as long as you see grease on it. The inner slide has probably enough grease already. Use a snake to clean the inside of the outer slide. Continue to move the slide and wipe to reduce grease until the slide is all clean. Then just apply a little on the stockings, if you need any.

/Tom

[berntd]

Thanks for the help.
When I got the instrument, it was very stiff and green oxidation all over the slide. Apparently it had not been used in at least a year.

I cleaned it, used soap, ran the little mouthpiece brush on a wire into the outer and water with a hose.
I am not sure that all the old stuff is really gone.

It seemed a lot easier but still felt a bit sluggish.
I then tried the Herco slide grease and it immediately felt much worse.

I wiped that all off again and then tried synthetic industrial sewing machine oil.

That helped but I still have concerns as it still moves rather slowly to the floor and I find it hard to move fast.

That is why I posted here:-)

It is not dented and just feels a little bit draggy.
There might still be gummed up old grease in there.

Perhaps it is normal.
I am not sure.


Best regards
Bernt

[berntd]

If held vertically the slide should drop as fast as if you just held the outer slide (off the trombone) and dropped

At this point, my slide takes 6 seconds to drop vertically from pos 1 to pos 7.

You can tell I am an engineer

Regards
Bernt

[BGuttman]

I usually clean old slides using a cleaning rod and cheesecloth. There is a video on the Edwards Web site that shows how to do it.

You also clean some of the gunk out with something called a snake, which is a length of flexible cable with a brush on each end. The proper size brush for a slide is a bit over 1/2 inch (12.7 mm).

As an alternative I've also used a shotgun cleaning rod with patches. You have to be careful if you do this to make sure you always turn it in a direction to tighten the screw sections. Turning the other way can leave part of it stuck in the slide and an expensive repair bill to get it out.

As to what lube, if you have some Pond's cold cream, that could work. Much better is something sold for the purpose like Superslick. If you like oils, there are materials like Slide-O=Mix, Reka, UltraPure, and Yamaha Slide Lube. All work best when used very sparingly. I put a small amount on the stocking of the slide tube and work it in by moving the outer slide in and out. I often work one tube at a time. If the slide is still slow a spray of water will "freshen" it.

You don't have to have a dent for the slide to have alignment problems. The slide could be bowed (a common problem for slides where the previous owner used them as a support) or torqued. Couple of quick tests to try:

1. Sight down each tube to see if you can see any bowing.

2. Place one tube on the slide and leave the other off. Let the "free" outer tube rest against the inner. They should be parallel. Do the same with the other tube.

Note: if my description sounds like a foreign language, bring the slide to a repair tech (and not just the Gee-Tar Docktor at your local Daddy's Junky Music).

[imsevimse]

6 seconds from first to 7:th position?

I would not advise to use anything called oil on the slide, it just does not work and is difficult to remove. Sewing machine oli is no good. It does not work with water and probably not in a combination with the grease.

Another thought; If the tin with grease is small and says "grease" it is probably not intended for the slide. It could be what you should apply on the tuningslide in the bell section. There you want a more sticky type of grease.

If you got something with the horn that is called slide-oil, I would not use it. I have never got that to work. "YAMHA Trombone slide lubricant" is what a lot of us use and it is also referred to as "Yamaha snot". You can probably order that on the net by the first name. That works.

Another thought; If this is a used horn it could be gunk is sitting on the inside of the outer tube. If you just play and wipe it will be better in time, you just need to be patient. I have bought a lot of ebay horns that at arrival had a slow slide but got better as I played, but this takes hours and hours of playing, water and wiping and if the slide is so slow you say, then it is too hard work to play anything.

/Tom

[baileyman]

...
When I got the instrument, it was very stiff and green oxidation all over the slide.
...

Okay, forget my first post.

Instead, chuck a 36" rod in your lathe and wrap the end with fine steel wool so that it *just* slides in the outer slide.

Turn on the lathe and carefully run the slide onto the rod making sure there is only moderate torque in your hands.

If the the steel wool slips off you can blow it out from the other tube with your air compressor.

At the conclusion of this your outer will be clean, but scratchy. With use it will get faster and quieter.

[imsevimse]

...
When I got the instrument, it was very stiff and green oxidation all over the slide.
...

Okay, forget my first post.

Instead, chuck a 36" rod in your lathe and wrap the end with fine steel wool so that it *just* slides in the outer slide.

Turn on the lathe and carefully run the slide onto the rod making sure there is only moderate torque in your hands.

If the the steel wool slips off you can blow it out from the other tube with your air compressor.

At the conclusion of this your outer will be clean, but scratchy. With use it will get faster and quieter.

Acctually I have used steel wool on many of my old horns, but I have never said it to anybody. I have used a "stick", of the kind you can buy that has removable brushes to use to clean your slide, and then I have wired the steel wool around the roughest brush and cleaned the inside of the outer tube this way. Be sure you use water with it. I guess techs might not recomend this or why has nobody told about this method before? Be sure you flush a lot of water in the outer slide to remove any steel wool that has been ripped of before you put it together. It's on your own risk. I guess a tech might want to leave a comment on this method as there might be something they consider bad. The inside of the tube is treated rather rough this way. I have only done this with old horns that was really dirty.

/Tom

[berntd]

Thanks. That is great advice. Perhaps not for everyone but definitely for me.

I just fixed it!

I ran my endoscope in there and it looked terrible.
Next I made a cleaning rod from a 3mm silver solder brazing rod.

I cut a strip of rag and wrapped it to the rod.

I dipped it into petrol or gasoline and the cleaned the slide to get grease and oil out.

Then I used a new rag and some Brasso polish
I polished the inside until the rag mostly stopped coming out green.

I cleaned it with clean rags and then had another look with the camera.

Much better but still a bit of green pits on places.

I left it at that.

Slide now drops in under 1 second:-)

I think even the tone sounds better.

Best regards
Bernt

[timothy42b]

Glad you made it work.

Clean slide plus yamaha slide lubricant will solve most of newbie slide problems. I don't recommend power tools. I'm a mechanical engineer myself but no way I'm putting that kind of sideways stress on fragile brass. Others do it successfully, so be warned.

I'm in the market for an endoscope myself and am confused by the models out there and which will actually connect to iPhone, kindle, or laptop, so any recommendations are welcome. I have two immediate purposes: check my valve alignment, and check my house vent pipes, I'm having some sink gurgle that could be vent problems.

[berntd]

Thanks.
I did not overdo the polishing as there is still greenish residue coming out on a tissue wipe. I am using synthetic oil still. I am willing to bet that the green corrosion is caused by the slide cream.
I say this because the U pipe at the bottom does not show any corrosion. Looks like new although it gets moisture too.
I watched a youtube video of a teacher cleaning her slide and it was green too. She was suprised as she cleans it often. But she uses the cream and water spray.
Oil will not do that and synthetic oil does not gum up even after many years.
Anyway, let us call it an experiment in progress.
It works great.

Endoscopes:
Oldtimer Markt Magazin (germany) tested some 20 different types.The mobile phone ones did not do well but I can't remember why.

I purchased mine off ebay. It is the same as one of the best ones they tested.
I wanted it for rust inspection in classic cars I work on.
The criteria was small head and fairly rigid snake with good optics.

Mine is ok but I would not buy it again.
It is rechargeable via USB but always flat after just a week lying around.

Also, the focal length is not adjustable and there is no optical zoom. One often cannot interpret what is on the screen. All in all, I would get something better next time. This one cost $125 delivered.

Mine is a "watch style borescope"

[sirisobhakya]

My criteria for a good lubed slide is that it should start to move from at most 10-15 degrees from horizontal, and move smoothly until at least 4th position.

[berntd]

That is good advise.
Mine would not have moved at all at 15 or even 45 degrees before I fixed it.

Of course, I had no idea if it was normal or not but since posting here, I have learned that it was way stiff.

Happy New Year to 'ya all!
Bernt

[imsevimse]

My criteria is it needs to be even. There are old trombones with heavy slides that are not very fast. Those trombones are playable as long as the slide is even. A fast slide that has a small drag somewhere is worse. All slides need to pass the "vertical test" which is an accelerating speed when dropped, probably less than a second.

/Tom

[Russjones92]

That green corrosion is actually caused by sugar in the little bit of saliva that come through when the prior owner played over time it just spreads... take apart any middle schools instruments when they come back from break and it’s