Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

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cyteakparagon
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Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:58 pm

Okay, I don't really know how to start this, but here goes:

I'm a college-age trombonist looking to repair my current horn, a Bach 42BO purchased new in 2017 from my local band shop at a big sales event. Now, a year later, the slide is fighting back a little bit! Not sure if it's because of faulty construction or whatnot, but I've done a lot to try and get this slide back up and running: switched cases because I thought a ProTEC one was so small it was warping it, brought it to a local trusted repairsperson on three occasions, twice for dent/alignment check and once for an ultrasonic cleaning, and I sent it to the Slide Doctor in between all this. All in all, 6th position still feels rusty and, on bad days, if I leave the slide in 7th, it'll just sit there, rock solid.

I am exhausted. I don't know where to turn, I've spent copious amounts of money totaling almost the value of the slide at this point, and I'm at the point where I'm looking at selling some old horns to scrape the money up to buy a slide from a reputable company such as Edwards or Shires. I feel insane: am I doing something wrong?

I figured out a lot of the resistance I was getting from the slide was due to my usage of slide cream and me not being diligent about cleaning it off! I thought I could skirt by but that didn't work out, so I'm back to Slide-O (Black Cap). I now clean it twice a week with the good old cheese cloth rod, but even this is beginning to lose its effectiveness, and I'm now applying lubricant almost every half an hour and a quarter of a spray bottle of water to keep the slide barely working.

Things I haven't tried: Using Dawn dish soap as a grease remover, getting actual cheese cloth instead of old rags and using new cheese cloth every time I clean

I know I can do something! But I'm distressed at the moment.
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Neo Bri
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by Neo Bri » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:18 pm

Perhaps sending it to a reputable slide guru would help. Several on TC here.
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Matt K
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by Matt K » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 pm

What did Ray say about it? Usually he's pretty responsive about your slide after he's worked on it. I found that it took a week after Ray got his hands on it for it to get back into good shape when I had a procedure done on one of my Shires slides. But suddenly one application of trombotine later and the slide was like glass. I was actually really disappointed with his work because it seemed worse than when i sent it to him but he assured me that it was just a heavily corroded slide and to give it time He was right!
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by LarryPrestonRoberson » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:52 am

Matt K wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 pm
What did Ray say about it? Usually he's pretty responsive about your slide after he's worked on it. I found that it took a week after Ray got his hands on it for it to get back into good shape when I had a procedure done on one of my Shires slides. But suddenly one application of trombotine later and the slide was like glass. I was actually really disappointed with his work because it seemed worse than when i sent it to him but he assured me that it was just a heavily corroded slide and to give it time He was right!
True words Matt; Ray will answer questions pre/post work and he is a great guy in general. Also, he polishes the inside of outer tubes tubes on every slide he does. So, at first it is scratchy. It's akin to getting a chemical clean.

Assuming the slide is mechanically sound. It could be the use of the two different lubricants. For instance Slide-O-Mix, by design I believe, stays on the slide surfaces. This can leave a residue even after a thorough/traditional cleaning. Apparently cream type lubricants and S-O-M react to each other. After a few minutes of playing the slide action starts to feel gummy. The Slide Doctor, Ray Splawn uses Wright’s Brass Polish and a cleaning rod and polishes/cleans the inside of the outer tubes. Then rinse and wash as per usual. This will remove build up from lubricants and tarnish. I had the same problem with a Bach 42 slide, where the previous owner only used Slide-O-Mix—even though the horn was immaculate clean and taken care of. I realize you went the opposite route, but it sounds to familiar to be coincidence. In general Slide-O-Mix can gum-up, even without the presence of another lubricant. With S-O-M, cleaning through the mechanical action of a cleaning rod just isn't enough. Here’s a link to the video: http://slidedr.com/instructional-videos ... xoisVMvzVq

As Matt suggested, definitely call Ray. If anything were mechanically wrong (warped tubes, etc) Ray would have informed you.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:21 am

Well, for one thing, ANY slide in 6th & 7th position most likely WON"T move on it's own! You're fighting against gravity at that point with the 3 feet of outer slide basically rotating downward on the end of 3 feet of flimsy inner slide tubes!!
And unless you leave your slide in the trunk of your car during a Texas summer & let the cream bake into your slide, your use of slide cream is not the problem here.
How does it move from 1-4?

Lastly, unless you have a LOT of experience working on slides, you're really at the end of what you can do to repair it!
Either send it back the Ray, or to another experienced slide tech, myself included.

Eric
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cyteakparagon
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:35 am

Matt K wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 pm
What did Ray say about it? Usually he's pretty responsive about your slide after he's worked on it. I found that it took a week after Ray got his hands on it for it to get back into good shape when I had a procedure done on one of my Shires slides. But suddenly one application of trombotine later and the slide was like glass. I was actually really disappointed with his work because it seemed worse than when i sent it to him but he assured me that it was just a heavily corroded slide and to give it time He was right!
I don't have his reply papers on me, but I do remember him confirming my fears that the tubes were too close together and slightly disaligned. Now that I think about it, it did feel better once returning from him, but the tubes still appeared and still appear today a bit disaligned, however this may just be a fear of mine. It's hard to tell.
LarryPrestonRoberson wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:52 am

True words Matt; Ray will answer questions pre/post work and he is a great guy in general. Also, he polishes the inside of outer tubes tubes on every slide he does. So, at first it is scratchy. It's akin to getting a chemical clean.

Assuming the slide is mechanically sound. It could be the use of the two different lubricants. For instance Slide-O-Mix, by design I believe, stays on the slide surfaces. This can leave a residue even after a thorough/traditional cleaning. Apparently cream type lubricants and S-O-M react to each other. After a few minutes of playing the slide action starts to feel gummy. The Slide Doctor, Ray Splawn uses Wright’s Brass Polish and a cleaning rod and polishes/cleans the inside of the outer tubes. Then rinse and wash as per usual. This will remove build up from lubricants and tarnish. I had the same problem with a Bach 42 slide, where the previous owner only used Slide-O-Mix—even though the horn was immaculate clean and taken care of. I realize you went the opposite route, but it sounds to familiar to be coincidence. In general Slide-O-Mix can gum-up, even without the presence of another lubricant. With S-O-M, cleaning through the mechanical action of a cleaning rod just isn't enough. Here’s a link to the video: http://slidedr.com/instructional-videos ... xoisVMvzVq

As Matt suggested, definitely call Ray. If anything were mechanically wrong (warped tubes, etc) Ray would have informed you.
Ray did inform me, and I understand your point. I've been on a Slide-O only diet for a couple months now, and it was working great at first, but went downhill from there. Most people I've asked around the area confirm that residue issues with slide creams and Trombotine are definitely more prevalent than with Slide-O, which, according to the repairswoman to which I brought my horn last year, "is essentially soap."

While I do think there's a good prospect of those products working, I've dropped almost $500-600 dollars on this slide with various things intended to up its performance. While I do want to take the chance, as I continually hear fantastic things about Ray and his work, I think it might be time to simply purchase a new slide and sell this one.
Bonearzt wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:21 am
Well, for one thing, ANY slide in 6th & 7th position most likely WON"T move on it's own! You're fighting against gravity at that point with the 3 feet of outer slide basically rotating downward on the end of 3 feet of flimsy inner slide tubes!!
And unless you leave your slide in the trunk of your car during a Texas summer & let the cream bake into your slide, your use of slide cream is not the problem here.
How does it move from 1-4?

Lastly, unless you have a LOT of experience working on slides, you're really at the end of what you can do to repair it!
Either send it back the Ray, or to another experienced slide tech, myself included.

Eric
I'll try and send Ray a ping!

Update: I've attempted to clean the slide with a Cascade (with a Dawn grease-fighting component) dish detergent from the pantry, which apparently contained some strange kind of salt which got all in my slide and, after cleaning it, the slide performs worse than before.
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BGuttman
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by BGuttman » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:52 am

What did you do with your slide?

If you tried to use Cascade dishwasher detergent as is, it' supposed to be diluted in HOT water (too hot for Bach lacquer!!!).

You should have used a regular dishwashing detergent (the type you use in a sink). Diluted to regular working strength (i.e. a capful to a bucket of WARM -- 100 F -- water).

You may need to do a long soak in warm water to try to dissolve the sodium phosphate (one of several varieties) crystals. I'll have to do a little research to figure out what you could use to try to help dissolve the crystals -- maybe ammonia will help.
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cyteakparagon
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:24 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:52 am
What did you do with your slide?

If you tried to use Cascade dishwasher detergent as is, it' supposed to be diluted in HOT water (too hot for Bach lacquer!!!).

You should have used a regular dishwashing detergent (the type you use in a sink). Diluted to regular working strength (i.e. a capful to a bucket of WARM -- 100 F -- water).

You may need to do a long soak in warm water to try to dissolve the sodium phosphate (one of several varieties) crystals. I'll have to do a little research to figure out what you could use to try to help dissolve the crystals -- maybe ammonia will help.
I just hosed it out with a medium-high pressure hose and that seems to have somewhat taken care of the problem; the crystals seemed to have dissolved on their own with room temperature water? At any rate that does not seem to be an issue any longer!

Update 2: I did get myself some real dish soap and it seems to have worked! Dawn 4x Grease-Cutting Strength seems to be the winner!

Following that episode, I re-applied Slide-O and water, and the slide became rock solid again. Rinsed it all off, back to square two. I may try applying the slide grease that I was using before (not Trombotine, it came with the Bach horn in the case). I also just found out there's a little bottle that's supposed to be applied along with the slide cream? The bottle is important?

As a final question (thanks to everyone for responding with such haste!), does anyone know the ingredients to this mysterious Bach slide cream? Or SuperSlick for that matter? I hear Trombotine is vegetable-based and I'm always into the organic stuff.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:26 pm

Forgot one: this friction isn't because of moisture in the slide is it? For the past few months I've noted that adding water almost always slows down my slide in any quantity. Additionally, my slide seems to work best when very dry and with a medium coating of lubricant. Is this normal?
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by BGuttman » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:33 pm

First, the small bottle of SOM is to be applied before the large bottle. You put a couple of drops on each stocking and work it in. Then you apply a few drops of the large bottle. You "refresh" the SOM with more drops from the large bottle.

Bach Slide Cream is probably the same stuff as Conn Formula 3. Superslick is a little different. For all three you would apply a small amount of cream, work it into the stockings, then a drop or two of the bottle of oil (the small bottle of SOM works too). To see how to properly apply cream, check out Christan Griego's video on how to clean a slide. It's on the Edwards site, and I embedded it in another post on here.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:07 pm

cyteakparagon wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:26 pm
Forgot one: this friction isn't because of moisture in the slide is it? For the past few months I've noted that adding water almost always slows down my slide in any quantity. Additionally, my slide seems to work best when very dry and with a medium coating of lubricant. Is this normal?
If anything, you need MORE water! In larger drops!

The water droplets are what the slide actually rides on in combination with the cream!

The misters don't apply enough water, you need a good stream!

Eric
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BurckhardtS
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by BurckhardtS » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 pm

One thing that has really helped keep my slide in shape (and a tech can correct/delete this post if I'm wrong) is that when you swab it out with a cleaning rod, you need to do it straight, and fairly aggressively.

Obviously you don't want to warp your slide, but if I remember correctly on the Edwards website it says to swab until the outers are warm to the touch (a LOT of friction). It really clears off any slide cream/oil buildup on the outers which can make the slide feel dented or sticky.

I know too many of my friends that used to swab one or two strokes lightly and consider that 'clean' when that doesn't actually do anything. I've done this with my Edwards slide for the last few years and I don't have any serious issues.

One thing that helps is that I use muslin instead of cheesecloth because it builds slightly more friction than the cheesecloth you buy at your local Target.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by timothy42b » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:15 pm

For me, adding water increases the slide speed by maybe 3%, and reduces the lube longevity by maybe 3000%.

But it does depend a bit on what I'm using. With SOM or Yamasnit, water makes my slide a tiny bit faster, but I have to reapply much sooner. With Superslick or other cream water has more effect on speed. It also washes off the lube faster, but the effect is less.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:25 pm

BurckhardtS wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 pm
One thing that has really helped keep my slide in shape (and a tech can correct/delete this post if I'm wrong) is that when you swab it out with a cleaning rod, you need to do it straight, and fairly aggressively.
I started doing that, I think I just may have started too late. Slide is off to Ray's now, I'll see what I can do from there afterwards! But yes, this technique did really help me get it cleaner, at least for a bit. I am always concerned about the aggressiveness of my slide cleaning but the outers are usually warm to the touch, but sometimes not the last bottom bit near the crook as the way I put my cloth around the rod, it isn't as thick at the very end. Oh well?
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by cyteakparagon » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:27 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:15 pm
For me, adding water increases the slide speed by maybe 3%, and reduces the lube longevity by maybe 3000%.
That's something I wondered too! It always felt like water decreased the lube longevity for me. And then there's a ton of condensation in my slide which may cause friction? Not sure about that part but water has almost always equalled more friction for me in the past year. :???:
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by Carolus » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:18 am

Have you tried using Yamaha snot aka Slide Lubricant instead? Single component, easy to use, overdosing is not catastrophic and you can forget about spraying water.
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Re: Trouble with Slide, Bach 42BO

Post by timothy42b » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:59 am

cyteakparagon wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:27 pm
timothy42b wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:15 pm
For me, adding water increases the slide speed by maybe 3%, and reduces the lube longevity by maybe 3000%.
That's something I wondered too! It always felt like water decreased the lube longevity for me. And then there's a ton of condensation in my slide which may cause friction? Not sure about that part but water has almost always equalled more friction for me in the past year. :???:
I get at least 3 weeks of good slide after lubing, and another couple weeks of okay slide, if I don't add water.

Add water and that can be down to 2-3 days.
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