Large shank vs Bass shank

[BflatBass]

Anyone ever use an exceptionally small mp on a bass trombone like say in the range of a Bach 3G or 4G? If so, are they available with a bass shank? I'm seeing them listed with a "large" shank but I'm finding the name "large shank" to mean they fit large tenors like .547 bore sized horns. The only time I see the name "bass shank" is on manufactures websites like Shilke or Doug Elliot for example, and those mp's are generally in the 2G range or larger.
I know that mp can be found or made to fit but they are generally out of my price range.

Cheers,
Robert

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think the term "bass shank" is on my website but I could be wrong.

Large shank and bass shank are the same. I normally call it "large shank."''

Although it's certainly possible to use a 4G or 3G size mouthpiece on a bass trombone, for most players the effect will be more like a large tenor - it won't sound or respond like a bass trombone.

There are always exceptions.

[sirisobhakya]

I sometimes use a 3G (also once 5G) on my bass. No conversion required.

[imsevimse]

I have a very strange Martin Bass trombone with .535 bore and 9" bell with two dependent valves that can take about every size of a trombone mouthpiece, and the horn works with anything. Put a Bach 1 (which came with the horn) and you have a deep bass but rather 'bright", put a Hammond 12M in the hole and you've got a tenor and with an adapter and an 11C you have a perfectly working jazz tenor trombone. You can naturally use any mouthpiece in between. This horn is so strange, normally a tenor mouthpiece does not play very well in a bass trombone and to use an adapter and a 11C does not give a usable combination in any of my other normal size basses, but here I guess it's the .535 bore that gives the compromise needed.

The only problem with this horn is that no matter what you stick in that hole it is not the best choice of a trombone. I would not bring it as a bass, not as a symphonic tenor and not as a jazz tenor trombone. It is a horn you could use if you had to cover a great viarity of styles that spans over a big register and only want to use one horn. Personally I would rather bring a double case and two trombones. Sometime under the right conditions I will bring this horn to a rehearsal, just to see how it blends.

/Tom

[ghmerrill]

A lot of band arrangements now seem to have only 1st and 2nd trombone parts -- at least in terms of arrangements used in community bands. I've used a Wick 3AL for some of those, and it works, resulting in something that sounds more like a large bore tenor. And it makes the high range easier/possible. But I've pretty much decided at this point to abandon that approach in favor of just using my bass mouthpiece and developing my high range with it. It's just simpler (though requiring some additional effort), avoids swapping mouthpieces in and out, and doesn't confuse my embouchure.

[greenbean]

I have a very strange Martin Bass trombone with .535 bore and 9" bell with two dependent valves that can take about every size of a trombone mouthpiece, and the horn works with anything. Put a Bach 1 (which came with the horn) and you have a deep bass but rather 'bright", put a Hammond 12M in the hole and you've got a tenor and with an adapter and an 11C you have a perfectly working jazz tenor trombone. You can naturally use any mouthpiece in between. This horn is so strange, normally a tenor mouthpiece does not play very well in a bass trombone and to use an adapter and a 11C does not give a usable combination in any of my other normal size basses, but here I guess it's the .535 bore that gives the compromise needed.

The only problem with this horn is that no matter what you stick in that hole it is not the best choice of a trombone. I would not bring it as a bass, not as a symphonic tenor and not as a jazz tenor trombone. It is a horn you could use if you had to cover a great viarity of styles that spans over a big register and only want to use on horn. Personally I would rather bring a double case and two trombones. Sometime under the right conditions I will bring this horn to a rehearsal, just to see how it blends.

/Tom

I used to own one of these Martins! A very unusual and interesting trombone, certainly. It now belongs to one of our forum members in Austria...

[harrisonreed]

The Shilke 61 Charles Vernon custom had an untapered .562 shank because there was no leadpipe in his horn at one time.

That is a bass shank mouthpiece.

[SwissTbone]

A lot of band arrangements now seem to have only 1st and 2nd trombone parts -- at least in terms of arrangements used in community bands...

I don't know what community band precisely means. But if they have arrangements with inly two trombone voices, the level can not be very high.

[ghmerrill]

I don't know what community band precisely means. But if they have arrangements with inly two trombone voices, the level can not be very high.

That's a very helpful observation.

[BGuttman]

Lately (at least in the US) a lot of arrangements are coming out for Middle School level players (1-4 years experience). These arrangements tend to have reduced instrumentation primarily because such bands often aren't very large and have limited abilities.

Community Bands tend to have a mixture of reasonably good players, players who come out only once a week (comparable to the players in Carneval Bands), and kids. Often arrangments are bought to the lowest common denominator. Also, many new charts with interesting titles are geared to these Middle School groups (the market for full arrangements for College level bands is rather small).

[ghmerrill]

There is, in fact, a lot of variation in community bands -- both in the makeup of the band itself and in the different "levels" at which the band performs. As just one example, a few years ago (in the band I play in now) the 3rd horn player seemed quite good. I got to practice one night early and walked into the auditorium in which we rehearse. He was running through some of the Mozart horn concertos as a warm-up. Astonishingly well done, I thought. I got talking to him and it turns out that he'd had to retire a bit prematurely from his job for medical reasons, and had moved south -- from Chicago, where he'd been Assistant Principal Horn in the Chicago Symphony. He was playing the 3rd part because he didn't want to "intrude" in how the band was structured. Things like that happen in community bands. It's a wacky environment at times. A couple of years later the horn player (or his wife) tired of life in central NC and moved back north.

Sometimes arrangements are bought because the director (who may in fact be quite experienced and competent) feels they'll just do well in the programming he's developing for the season. Each band has it's own venue and target audience and performance requirements. Pieces in a performance may range from moronically simple to highly challenging. But (unlike academic situations) the goal isn't to impress with technical virtuosity, but rather to provide an enjoyable evening of music for a broad audience -- ranging from children and the musically naive through the elderly and the musically sophisticated. In the ideal case, it's whatever's left of the old "town band" tradition in the US -- and that's the sort of band I try to end up in.

I agree about many arrangements apparently being targeted for middle schools. But there may be something else as well. We've also seen a number of those fairly simplistic arrangements with peculiar low brass parts -- transposed bass clef parts. These seem specifically targeted for European bands of some sort. Certainly no one in the US would use those parts, and the result is hideously comical when people don't notice the two bass clef parts for their instrument, print off the wrong one, and ... well, you can imagine.

But who doesn't know what a community band (a band drawn from the community) is? Is there a part of the world they don't exist? I hope not.

[GBP]

I don't know what community band precisely means. But if they have arrangements with inly two trombone voices, the level can not be very high.

That's a very helpful observation.

And not necessarily true. There has been push in educational music to write more music that more closely relates to the reality of most of the programs out there. There are composers addressing this by making it possible to play music with smaller trombone sections.

[BflatBass]

Back to mouthpieces...

As Doug Elliot said, there is no designation for a bass shank on his web site. My bad.

Let me explain why I'm concerned about the shank designation for any given mouthpiece.
I have a "small shank to large shank" adapter that does not fit my King Duo Gravis receiver. My tenor mouthpieces (Bach 61/2AL, 5G, and 7) fit the adapter fine on the inside diameter but the outside diameter is too small for my DG. Therefore, I'm thinking there must be more than one definition of a "large shank". Also, I have an old Remington mp that I think I got in high school (I've had it a very long time) and the shank is too big for my King 3B receiver and too small for my Duo Gravis receiver.
I just thought it would be nice to know if the the Bach 3G's listed online with large shanks (Amazon, etc.) would fit my Duo Gravis receiver. I suppose if it doesn't fit I can always return it.
I'm using my 3B for all my trombone work now (2nd and 3rd parts) and I really don't like it. It's just too small. I would really like to be able to use my DG even though it's not really suited for that kind of work. It's just a more comfortable horn for me and I sound better on it and the 3B slide is a POS. But....the smallest bass mp I have is a 2G and my chops just aren't strong enough yet for tenor work on that big of a mp. So I thought I'd try a 3G in the meantime while I try and build some strength.

Really, a large bore tenor with an F valve would be the ticket but a new mouthpiece is a lot cheaper.

Cheers,
Robert

[Doug Elliott]

If you look closer at my website, I list a King shank - that's what the Duo Gravis has - it's a little bigger and a different taper from a normal large shank, and also different from the 88H shank.

An adaptor like you have would not work in the Duo Gravis, and you won't find anything that does work. If you must use it, add tape to it until it fits.

[ghmerrill]

That's a very helpful observation.

And not necessarily true. There has been push in educational music to write more music that more closely relates to the reality of most of the programs out there. There are composers addressing this by making it possible to play music with smaller trombone sections.

Maybe my comment was a little too deadpan. Of course, I personally believe that any piece employing fewer than four trombone voices cannot be at a very high level. These principles of composition and scoring have been well established over centuries and should not be ignored. The "reality of most programs" is a sop to the proletariat (I believe this may have been observed by Marx -- perhaps Groucho).

[harrisonreed]

Maybe my comment was a little too deadpan. Of course, I personally believe that any piece employing fewer than four trombone voices cannot be at a very high level. These principles of composition and scoring have been well established over centuries and should not be ignored.

You can't be serious.

[ghmerrill]

That observation is not entirely original.

[BGuttman]

I've seen high level music using 2 trombones. The Gilbert and Sullivan operettas wee scored for two trombones (the 2nd woks best on a bass).

And as for 4 trombones, I play some pretty involved pieces using only 3.

The real complaint is that most modern music for Concert Band seems to be geared to those Junior High School ensembles.

Back to original topic:

King used a larger shank size on many of its large bore trombones (but not all; I can use a regular large shank on my King 7B). Also, Conn used an exotic taper (usually referred to as Remington, after the mouthpiece) on large bore and bass trombones. Some of the large Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces (105, 106, 107) use a larger shank. I think they were originally intended for contrabass trombones.

[greenbean]

On topic...

I have owned a couple DG's and just used a Bach Corp 1.5G. The fit was "close enough" and it played well. DG's do seem to play best with 2G or 1.5G -ish mouthpieces. You could also look for a King 29 mouthpiece that King made for the DG. They can be found cheaply. If I recall correctly, it is about 2G in rim size and somewhat deepish. What I do remember clearly is that it plays very well. That might be the ticket for you.

What you do not want to do, IMO, is use a tenor mouthpiece, whether it is large or small shank.

[harrisonreed]

That observation is not entirely original.

I'm sorry, but scoring for four trombones is not the end-all-be-all finality of scoring technique developed "over the centuries" (seems like you're only talking about wind ensemble music? How recent is that concept?), nor is it an indication of anything, composition-wise. Good music is good, bad music is bad, and only then until tastes have changed. Most of the greatest music we have created collectively as human beings is scored for zero trombones. I'm just saying.

[JohnL]

An adaptor like you have would not work in the Duo Gravis, and you won't find anything that does work. If you must use it, add tape to it until it fits.

I think some King horns shipped with a mouthpiece adapter - but good luck finding one. As I recall, they had two "lugs" so you could get a grip on them, rather than the usual knurled or hex ring.

For those who live in parts of the world where the term "community band" isn't commonly used, it generally refers to a band made up primarily of adult amateur players. Some groups hold auditions, but a lot of them take whoever shows up. Even groups that have an audition process have a broad spectrum of skill levels. Instrumentation can be very interesting, to say the least.

As for the issue of how many trombone parts? We could have a heck of a discussion on that subject alone. As a bass trombonist, having only two trombone parts annoys the daylights out of me. Not because of range issues, but because it leaves us with a lot of people on the first and second, and they don't need any help over there (nor do they adjust their volume to compensate for having more players on the part). I usually just sit those pieces out.

One suggestion for the OP: see if you can track down an original King 29 mouthpiece. That should fit your DG perfectly and is in the size range for doing what you're talking about. They pop up on eBay pretty regularly. Other than that, your best choice would be to work with Doug Elliott - as far as I know, he's the only person that offers a specialized King shank.

[ghmerrill]

That observation is not entirely original.

I'm sorry, but scoring for four trombones is not the end-all-be-all finality of scoring technique developed "over the centuries" (seems like you're only talking about wind ensemble music? How recent is that concept?), nor is it an indication of anything, composition-wise. Good music is good, bad music is bad, and only then until tastes have changed. Most of the greatest music we have created collectively as human beings is scored for zero trombones. I'm just saying.

This is the whole problem with irony in text exchanges. But at least I guess I did manage to come off as even more pretentious than someone complaining about the "level" of a community band because it plays some pieces scored for only two trombones. To your own point: I'm pretty sure that when I was at the period performance of Mozart's Requiem in Karlskirche in Vienna a few years ago, they did it with a full section of alto, three tenors, bass, and contrabass. I'm sure we're all familiar with that arrangement, right?

[BflatBass]

If you look closer at my website, I list a King shank - that's what the Duo Gravis has - it's a little bigger and a different taper from a normal large shank, and also different from the 88H shank.

An adaptor like you have would not work in the Duo Gravis, and you won't find anything that does work. If you must use it, add tape to it until it fits.

This is very disappointing.
I have 4 bass trombone mouthpieces (Bach 2G, 1.5G, Shilke 58 and 59) and they all fit my DG receiver fine. The 59 does sink in a little deeper than the rest but it still fits. Idk. I'll probably invest in a large shank 3G and figure something out until I can use my 2G on a regular basis. Or until I can convince my wife that a large bore tenor would suit me better for the kind of work I do. Thanks for all the input.

Cheers,
Robert

[Matt K]

There are several different versions of the DG receiver. If you have one where the shank fits in 1", then it will largely fit most shanks, although others will tend to fit better than some. Doug's standard shanks as well as a few others worked quite well on my DG but when I tried it with one of my professors slides (nickel version from a few years prior), the only pieces I had that worked were Doug's. I believe I had a Faxx, Schilke, G&W, and some Elliott pieces to try between the two of them. But as Doug pointed out, the receiver adapter is not likely to work for either of them. Although to be honest, if you're going to drop $20 on an adapter, you could probably drop $25 and get a used 6.5AL (or a new Faxx for a little more) w/ large shank since you're used to that size. It isn't THAT far out of left field since you're using it as a pseudo-tenor anyway. Or really any other large shank mouthpiece. If you weren't too picky and put up a WTB with a budget for something between 3G and 6.5AL in large shank I bet you'd get a boatload of responses. The absolute worst case scenario if you get something that is a little wobbly is that for awhile you might have to use teflon tape maybe once a week to build up the shank so it fits just right. Only takes a minute or two. If you aren't playing and inserting it every day, probably longer.