Olds Mouthpieces

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ranttila
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Olds Mouthpieces

Post by ranttila » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:05 pm

I’ve seen some Olds mouthpieces on EBay and I was looking for a size chart, but I can’t seem to find any. Does anyone know how the Olds tenor trombone mouthpieces are sized as far as rim diameter and depth? If anyone has played on an Olds mouthpiece it would be nice to know how they compare to and how they perform compared to the Denis Wicks and Schilikes of modern day.

If you do know how they are sized I was looking at an Olds 8S and an Olds 3C if anyone knows those mouthpiece measurements specifically.

Thanks, Kenneth
Posaunus
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by Posaunus » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:14 pm

As far as I know, Olds mouthpieces were all made to fit the unusually small Olds trombone receivers, so will have a shank smaller than standard small-shank and perhaps a slightly different taper. That means that they will drop farther into the receiver of a non-Olds trombone, and might not work as well as a standard small-shank mouthpiece. The popular sizes for Olds were 3 (their "universal" small-bore piece) and 1 (for their [slightly] larger-bore instruments with F-attachments). The large-bore pieces I am familiar with are the Olds 15 and Olds 20 (for Olds trombones such as the O-15, O-23, and O-25) which are also optimized for the slightly smaller-than-standard Olds large-shank receivers.

I do have an Olds mouthpiece marked 12C, which seems much like a small-shank Bach 12C, except with an Olds shank. It plays just fine on a vintage small-bore (0.485"/0.500") Olds trombone - rather like an Olds 3. As far as the 8S and 3C pieces, I have no knowledge, but do believe that they are very rare beasts. Olds expert JohnL may know more about these, so should be invited to weigh in.

In general, I would see no reason (other than curiosity) to explore these Olds mouthpieces unless you have an Olds trombone - especially when there are literally dozens of mouthpieces which will better fit standard small-bore trombones, from (current and former) manufacturers such as Bach, Blessing, Conn, Courtois, Curry, Faxx, Giardinelli, Giddings, Hammond, King, Klier, Laskey, Lindberg/Conn, Marcinkiewicz, Schilke, Stork, Wick, Yamaha, Doug Elliott, ...
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JohnL
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by JohnL » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:07 pm

Here are the only published specs that I can recall seeing:

http://rouses.net/trumpet/olds39/olds39_13.htm

EDIT:
Here is the info converted to text:
TROMBONE MOUTHPIECES
No. 1-Large bore, deep cup, for bass trombone. 1-inch cup diameter and .250-inch throat.
No. 2~-Wide cup dance model. Medium shallow cup 1-inch in diameter with .246-inch bore. Excellent high-register mouthpiece.
No. 3-This is a mouthpiece of average proportions, furnished regularly on Olds trombones. Has ,984-inch cup, medium shallow, with .237-in. bore.
No. 4--Semi cushion, high-register "recording" model with .968-inch cup, rather shallow, and .237-inch bore
No. 5-Wide flat rim, .938-inch diameter, medium shallow with .234-inch bore. Excellent soloist model.
No. 6-Cushion rim model; narrow, shallow cup ,938-inch diameter and .242-inch bore. Extreme high-register model.
As far as small shank, Olds also produced a 1★, a 3C, and a 12C.
In large shank, there are:
15 - about 6.5AL size
20 - about 5G size
G - George Roberts model; about 1.5G size
21 - pretty sure this is the G rebadged after Olds and GR parted ways.

You might see a 10 or an 18 being sold as small shank trombone mouthpieces. The 10 is a baritone horn mouthpiece and the 18 is a baritone bugle mouthpiece.

There was a whole different sizing system up until around 1938 or so.
Trombone
No. 7 - For high register and solo playing.
No. 8 - Standard medium, as furnished with Olds instruments.
No. 9 - Special "lonq range" design, for featured players.
No. 10 - Medium bore with special muscle fitting rim for rapid technique.
No. 11- Large bore, for big tone and heavy volume.
From that era, I've also seen mouthpieces marked 8S, SYM, and N.V. (I suspect the last is someone's initials).

Notice that both systems have a size 10, but it's pretty easy to see which is which when looking at the mouthpiece.
sporto
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by sporto » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:11 pm

I recently bagged a 1940 Olds and there was an 8S in the case. Inside diameter is the same as a Bach 12C. The inside contour is V shaped.
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JohnL
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by JohnL » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 pm

The earliest Olds mouthpieces I've seen are funnel shaped, with a wide, flat rim. They're marked on the underside of the rim; no size. In the late 1920's, they also made a mouthpiece with an ivory cup insert; it's rare to find one with an intact insert.
sporto
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by sporto » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:15 pm

JohnL wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 pm
The earliest Olds mouthpieces I've seen are funnel shaped, with a wide, flat rim. They're marked on the underside of the rim; no size. In the late 1920's, they also made a mouthpiece with an ivory cup insert; it's rare to find one with an intact insert.
This 8S is marked OLDS LOS ANGELES on the underside of the rim. Rim is wide and flattish, like an Olds 3.
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FEWeathers
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by FEWeathers » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am

At the risk of resurrecting a dead (?) thread, have any of the Olds aficionados ever found certain vintage Olds horns that actually seem like they fit Morse taper mouthpieces better than the standard Olds shank pieces?

I ask because I recently acquired a '46 "The Olds" Standard, which came with an unidentifiable (unmarked, small cup, Morse shank) mouthpiece, which I set aside (assuming it would work better with an Olds 3). Much to my surprise, when I put the Olds 3 in the receiver, the mouthpiece wobbled, etc. It acted like how a vintage Conn does when putting a Morse taper mouthpiece in a Remington shank era horn.

I put a Morse shank Bach 12C in her, and she was happy with that shank, locking at .94" penetration. Happily, I have a Doug Elliot MT100 mouthpiece with a C+ cup, w/ a D2 Olds shank, as well as a D2 Morse shank. Yes, you guessed it, the Olds shank wobbled, while the Morse shank locked in with a 1.00" penetration. The Olds shank went to 1.05", while wobbling, btw.

So my question is, was the "The Olds" Standard a different animal than the other Olds horns being made? Is it the "missing link" between old style Olds horns (that went away), and the newer style ones?

I know that it was called the "Self-Balancing" model when it first came out, but I'm surprised about her lack of interest in gripping the normal Olds mouthpieces. Is this a unicorn? A one-off? Or did a previous owner change the leadpipe? I didn't bother playing her with the Olds 3, as she worked quite well with the Elliot.
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BGuttman
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by BGuttman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:25 pm

I have a 1925 Olds (TIS) and it fits standard small shank mouthpieces. I think it was a common repair job to ream the receivers.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:32 pm

First of all, most receivers and leadpipes are somewhat inconsistent just based on the manufacturing process.

My Olds shank is still a "Morse taper" .050 per inch, it's just a little smaller and goes in farther - so the fact that it wobbles means that the receiver's taper doesn't go past the 1" depth. It must be smaller past that point. That's not a problem and I would not ream it. My Recording from the mid 50's is the same way.
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FEWeathers
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Re: Olds Mouthpieces

Post by FEWeathers » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:53 pm

Good info on your taper, and it figures that there is some variances in the manufacturing process. Especially given the smaller numbers of horns built when Olds was in LA vs. Fullerton. I have an Olds Super with a 7 3/8" bell, for example, when the catalogs only offered bells in .50" increments. So it goes.

For the record, the Olds 3 also went in to a depth of 1.05", so your version is dead-on.
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