.500 bore mouthpieces

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Davidus1
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.500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:32 pm

What is the largest mouthpiece that any of you use regularly on a .500 bore tenor? Anyone using bigger than a 6 1/2 AL?
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Matt K
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Matt K » Tue May 22, 2018 3:47 pm

I use an XT104N/C/C3 on that bore size usually. The rim is quite a bit larger than the 6.5AL, though the cup shallower. I also use an LB114/D/D3 on my small bore from time to time, but it's mostly to keep my bass chops in shape without carrying a super heavy instrument around. I live in a condo where I can't play without a mute in. The new silent brass doesn't fit basses and the old one is a lot heavier (as are the valves!). So I usually don't take that with me on gigs.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm

I play on my XT N104 rim, my C+ cup, and D2 shank, on a Williams 6 most of the time but I also use a .500 bore Schmelzer and I use pretty much the same setup on alto.

For comparison that's about a Bach 3 rim size and the cup is a bit shallower than a 6-1/2AL.
There are plenty or recordings and videos around if you want to see what it sounds like.
Here's one, it doesn't show credits but that's me:
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 4:55 pm

Matt K wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 3:47 pm
I use an XT104N/C/C3 on that bore size usually. The rim is quite a bit larger than the 6.5AL, though the cup shallower. I also use an LB114/D/D3 on my small bore from time to time, but it's mostly to keep my bass chops in shape without carrying a super heavy instrument around. I live in a condo where I can't play without a mute in. The new silent brass doesn't fit basses and the old one is a lot heavier (as are the valves!). So I usually don't take that with me on gigs.
Thanks Matt. That is a large size!
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue May 22, 2018 4:59 pm

"Large" does not mean harder to play. For those of us whose embouchures are more suited to large rims, it's actually a lot easier in every way.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 5:02 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm
I play on my XT N104 rim, my C+ cup, and D2 shank, on a Williams 6 most of the time but I also use a .500 bore Schmelzer and I use pretty much the same setup on alto.

For comparison that's about a Bach 3 rim size and the cup is a bit shallower than a 6-1/2AL.
There are plenty or recordings and videos around if you want to see what it sounds like.
Here's one, it doesn't show credits but that's me:
Beautiful sound Doug! Very nice. I started lessons a couple of weeks ago and have been playing on a 6 3/4C and my instructor immediately said I need to go bigger. I've switched to a 6 1/2AL for now because that's all is have. I may go bigger. I didn't know if the bigger pieces would work on a .500 bore horn but you sure sound great! I appreciate the video.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by hyperbolica » Tue May 22, 2018 7:01 pm

I also use an XT104/C/3 for my bright 48h and /E/4 for my 10h (500 bore) with a meatier sound. I feel more comfortable and flexible with the larger rim.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Corey » Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm

I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.

I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.

I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Kingfan » Tue May 22, 2018 7:38 pm

DE equivalent to a Bach 5 on my .491 bore King 2B and on my .508 bore 3B. What Doug Elliott said - the correct mouthpiece for a given horn depends on the player as well as the horn. I had a friends play a Bach 15 for years. He learned by accident (forgot his mouthpiece at home and borrowed a larger piece off another player) how much it was holding them back when he were forced to try something different. Me, I sold off a 2B years ago because I didn't like the horn. I was using a 7c because, well, anything larger was "wrong". I ended up realizing a larger mouthpiece worked much better for me (thanks, Doug!) and was lucky enough to find another 2B.

Nice sound there, Doug, BTW!
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by King2bPlus » Tue May 22, 2018 7:50 pm

LTN102/C+/D2 on a King 2B+
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Burgerbob » Tue May 22, 2018 8:09 pm

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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 8:18 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:59 pm
"Large" does not mean harder to play. For those of us whose embouchures are more suited to large rims, it's actually a lot easier in every way.
Thanks Doug. I'm learning that. Much easier on this 6 1/2 AL overall. I do feel like I'm giving up a little on the upper range but the sound overall is much much better.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 8:20 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:01 pm
I also use an XT104/C/3 for my bright 48h and /E/4 for my 10h (500 bore) with a meatier sound. I feel more comfortable and flexible with the larger rim.
Thanks. I will eventually probably order something from Doug as I use his mouthpiece on my tuba and love it.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by greenbean » Tue May 22, 2018 8:20 pm

Somewhat bigger mouthpieces seems to work best for me on .500, .508, or .525. Bach 5, Schilke 51B, or Stork T1S.

Bach 4 and 3 are available in small shank...
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Tue May 22, 2018 8:21 pm

Corey wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.

I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.

I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
I agree. It sure gets expensive to experiment.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Kingfan » Tue May 22, 2018 8:56 pm

Davidus1 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:21 pm
Corey wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.

I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.

I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
I agree. It sure gets expensive to experiment.
You can do an in-person or Skype lesson with Doug Elliott and he can cut right to the chase.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by BGuttman » Tue May 22, 2018 9:43 pm

I use a Bach 4C on my Martin Imperial, and have lately been experimenting with a Warburton 7D and a 4 backbore. Works fine for me (but I play a Wick 4BL or 4BS on my classical horns.

Also playing with a Doug Elliott 102N on an E cup (LT series)
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by baileyman » Wed May 23, 2018 8:59 am

11C, as it gets the sound. The rest I'll just work through.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Redthunder » Wed May 23, 2018 11:55 am

I was using a Bach 4C with a 6H. I recently just started playing a Yamaha 691 (.508 bore) with the same mouthpiece. For the previous 4 or 5 years I always used smaller mouthpieces like 12C and 7C with the 6H because that's what I was always told to play with a horn that size. Always struggled. After a couple of lessons between Dave Wilken and Doug, I was pointed in the right direction for myself, which, like others here, was trending towards larger rim sizes. Overall I have better range, control, and sound in both directions, high and low.

Your experience may vary, but as already mentioned, there aren't many questions about mouthpieces and how they work with your chops that Doug can't answer.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by FeelMyRath » Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 pm

I play a Rath Lightweigt 5BB on my R4F, a Rath standard weight 4BB on Euph, and I played a Yamaha 45C2-GP on my .500" bore. I'm a big believer in matching my rim size to the instrument although I could be very wrong on that. Every time I played something bigger on my .500" bore I just couldn't get the sound I wanted. Likewise if I play something too small on Euph or too big on my .547" bore.

Experiment and see what works for you. Isn't life just fun?
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Redthunder » Wed May 23, 2018 2:54 pm

FeelMyRath wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 pm
I play a Rath Lightweigt 5BB on my R4F, a Rath standard weight 4BB on Euph, and I played a Yamaha 45C2-GP on my .500" bore. I'm a big believer in matching my rim size to the instrument although I could be very wrong on that.
The problem with that is that the rim size has very little to do with how a mouthpiece matches up to an instrument. Cup shape, depth, and backbore all have a much more important relationship with horn size than rim size. That said, most mouthpiece makers manufacture their pieces so that larger rims have deep cups, and smaller rims come with shallow cups, so that is partially why so many people advocate for using small mouthpieces with small bore trombones. Your 45C2 matches the horn not because the rim is small, but because the cup, backbore, throat, etc. are designed with a small horn in mind.

That said, if you don't have any problem with a rim that small, no worries at all. No one is suggesting that players shouldn't play on a small rim. It's more that players often are told that you NEED a small rimmed mouthpiece to get the "correct" sound/feel/blow these horns, and for many people, their faces simply cannot function well with a rim size as small as a 12C, 11C, or even 7C.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Kingfan » Wed May 23, 2018 9:17 pm

Just remembered - one of my buddies plays a King 3B-F/Bach 3 combo. He told me he has tried smaller mouthpieces/rims in the past and keeps coming back to the 3.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Davidus1 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:33 pm

Kingfan wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:17 pm
Just remembered - one of my buddies plays a King 3B-F/Bach 3 combo. He told me he has tried smaller mouthpieces/rims in the past and keeps coming back to the 3.
Thanks. I had it in my head that I had to use a small mouthpiece with a small horn. Learning otherwise.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Jazzdoc59 » Sat May 26, 2018 8:42 am

I cannot overstate how much Doug Elliott helped my approach to the horn after taking a look at my "brass face" and suggesting a larger rim diameter. I'm playing on his LT102 sized rim (about a Bach 4G) on an array of his Cups and Shanks (B2, C3, C4, D3, D4, E4, E8, G8). I struggled for decades trying to make my face work in rim sizes ranging between VB 11C and 7C sized rims. THANK you, Doug.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by johnnymack » Sat May 26, 2018 12:44 pm

.500 bore mouthpiece. I thought my Greg Black OG was huge with a .318 backbore. LOL
Seriously, I use a 1.03"/26.1mm rim with different cups and back bores depending if I am playing lead , solo or section work in a Big Band.Being a Bass Trombonist, Contrabass Trombonist and Tubist also, my choice depends on how much I played them B4 I pick up my small bore. At least where I start off. I have a Hammond 10ML Skeletonized and 10ML/L ( Both Custom) DOug Elliott G* and H*/H4 as well as a Warburton 7D with 6* BB. I also use a Warburton 7M with 5 BB on Alto. FWIW
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Sat May 26, 2018 7:10 pm

Jazzdoc59 wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:42 am
I'm playing on his LT102 sized rim...on an array of his Cups and Shanks (B2, C3, C4, D3, D4, E4, E8, G8).
Just starting out with the DE. That array looks to me like a couple thousand dollar investment!
-What's the array of horns these go with?
-How many LT102s go with them? (I can imagine anywhere between 1-8 or even more since there're so many finishs.)
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by BGuttman » Sat May 26, 2018 7:19 pm

You would select the rim for your embouchure size and the finish depending on how "grippy" you want it to be. Gold is least grippy, Lexan is most. You can swap rims onto different cups.

As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.

So I have the equivalent of two complete systems to cover about a half dozen instruments.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Sun May 27, 2018 9:54 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 7:19 pm
As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
You mentioned the D2 backbore but not a D cup. Do you use it with the E&G cups?

I don't understand why the shank is supposed to match the letter on the cups. I had thought it was to match throats, but have no idea really. Is the throat on DE mps in the cup or the shank (or at the joint). I had used a borrowed I cup with a borrowed K shank. I didn't have an I shank to compare, but it worked well for me. I'm now borrowing a K cup with the K shank. The larger cup is working for me, but I'm mostly just glad the letters match up. I felt like I was breaking am important rule with the mismatched I/K combo.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Matt K » Sun May 27, 2018 10:30 pm

PhilipEdCarlson wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:54 pm
BGuttman wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 7:19 pm
As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
You mentioned the D2 backbore but not a D cup. Do you use it with the E&G cups?

I don't understand why the shank is supposed to match the letter on the cups. I had thought it was to match throats, but have no idea really. Is the throat on DE mps in the cup or the shank (or at the joint). I had used a borrowed I cup with a borrowed K shank. I didn't have an I shank to compare, but it worked well for me. I'm now borrowing a K cup with the K shank. The larger cup is working for me, but I'm mostly just glad the letters match up. I felt like I was breaking am important rule with the mismatched I/K combo.
The difference is due to the lengths. The most extrme example is an A cup vs. a P cup. An a cup is extremely shallow, so the shank is most of the length of the mouthpiece vs. the cup which is only a small part. The shank is very short comparatively on the P cup because the cup is so deep. If you were to put an A shank on a P cup, it would be... a very long mouthpiece. Much longer than the size it should be!

The throat is actually inside the shank. Meaning that if you wanted a different throat, you could have Doug make you one and A/B compare throats on the same cup. In order to do that, some of the material on the inside of the shank is different diameters, especially for the smaller cups. E.g. if you use a C shank in a G cup, you'll notice that there's a lip on the inside of the shank portion of the piece where it meets up with the ridge of the cup. The opposite, a G shank on a C cup has the opposite ridge.

So there are two design elements that make it more conducive to match the cup to the shank.

For some of the cups, you can go +/- a size without too much of a difference... though others are better at that. I used an M8 shank on an LB L for the better part of a few months before acquring an L8 shank. I do notice the difference but I could conceivably understand someone liking the 'incorrect' one over the 'correct' one because it does feel a touch more broad. I tend to like things to be focused so I prefer the L shank on that particular piece.

For those who might be in this scenario: If you give his pieces a try with the mismatched parts and don't like it, do give the 'appropriate' configuration a toot and see if that fixes things! One of the big advantages of his pieces but also a negative in that if you don't really understand the nomenclature and just put the parts together and assume that they were engineered to all work together, you might get the wrong impression! But it really gives a lot of flexibility in customizing something from stock parts!
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun May 27, 2018 10:42 pm

It's a design thing. For most horns and most players, a mismatched set will not play well, or at least not as well as it should. If you want it to work well, what I designed and tested, match the letters. The only exceptions are most of the "+" cups work best with the next larger shank: C+ cup uses a D shank.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Sun May 27, 2018 11:43 pm

Thanks Matt!
I think I got it!
Length & Interface

And Doug, Design. I assume that includes length, interface and other secret sauce stuff!
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