Live and learn ...

[musicofnote]

So, I've got three mouthpieces that I wanted to choose from. I already know which I like from MY side of the mouthpiece, but wanted to see what the difference is from the bell/public side.

I chose a selection of pieces that highlighted different aspects of playing. Flexibility, legato, tone color.

The relative sizes of the three were not radically different and as opposed to my old trumpet days, I don't react adversely to mouthpiece size changes any more. Was impossible on the trumpet in those bad ol' days.

So I took my time and recorded on a decent microphone at the same distance, same recording level.

And what did I hear later, both on good speakers and headphones?

Almost no real difference that couldn't be attributed to "the moment". What "felt" covered, flat highs (but didn't pan out on a tuning machine) , wonderful lows ... wasn't appreciably different from the immediate response, brilliant sound and great intonation with more concentration needed in the lows. I made a copy of the files, removed the labels (ID-ing the mouthpieces) to rule out any expectation effect and ... the largest differences pretty much disappeared.

Then I did the same experiment with my wife listening. She's a professional pianist. She said she simply heard trombone, but didn't hear any differences she could identify.

My subjective feelings about playing on each mouthpiece remain, but they were not born out on the other side of the horn. And that being the case, the decision as to which mouthpiece was easy. Nr. 1 goes back into the drawer. Nr. 2 stays at the ready "in case" and Nr. 3 stays in the horn. No need to identify which was which.

And funny enough, this aligns with most of the comparisons I've heard from other players. There are many players with comparision recordings out there who, on this side of the horn, simply have their sound, even though THEY "feel" a great difference between mouthpieces or horns. It was always interesting to hear THEIR findings of this mouthpiece or that horn, but ... listening side-by-side, I heard pretty much no appreciable difference.

I fully expect no one to agree with me, that's ok. This just is a reflection of my one experiment, NOT of a dogmatic "truth". Do with it (meaning ignore it if you wish) as you please.

[hyperbolica]

Totally agree. Objective reality in a subjective pursuit is so often disappointing. I've made similar recordings comparing horns, and never proved what I expected to prove.

[BGuttman]

On a similar vein, just changing mouthpieces is not going to instantly solve problems. If you sound like a wounded moose on your current mouthpiece, switching to [insert Trombone God here] mouthpiece won't make you play any better. Practicing your butt off will make you play better. Of course if the mouthpiece doesn't "fit", you can't put in the time.

[robcat2075]

I am unsurprised by this result.

I can foresee a dozen objections true believers would advance but after we eliminated each one the end result would probably still be the same and your conclusion the correct one.

For a set of mouthpieces you are comfortable playing, the moment-to-moment variation in human performance is probably greater than whatever variation the mouthpiece introduces.

I also suspect the nature of sound waves in air is to lose detail with distance. Maybe the differences you hear as a player really are there but get averaged out beyond a few feet from the horn.

[CharlieB]

The first time I heard a recording of my voice played back to me, my reaction was, "That's not the way I really sound." I had the same reaction when my first trombone recordings were played back to me. In both instances, others listening to the playbacks assured me that the recordings were accurate reproductions of my sound.
For some reason, my brain seems to perceive the sounds it detects from my vocal chords or from a horn pressed against my face differently from the recorded sounds that align with what others hear. No clue why.

[GabrielRice]

The first time I heard a recording of my voice played back to me, my reaction was, "That's not the way I really sound." I had the same reaction when my first trombone recordings were played back to me. In both instances, others listening to the playbacks assured me that the recordings were accurate reproductions of my sound.
For some reason, my brain seems to perceive the sounds it detects from my vocal chords or from a horn pressed against my face differently from the recorded sounds that align with what others hear. No clue why.

Part of the way we hear ourselves is bone conduction inside our own heads.

[Matt K]

I think a lot of things that we think change our sound do... but indirectly. If something is "easy" for you to play, you'll likely play more musically. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the "direct" things that are changed are perceptual because of the vibrations that our body picks up on. So things like weights on valve covers, oversleeves, mouthpiece weight, possibly material of the instrument... it touches our body and we get some degree of sympathetic vibrations. That's the bone conduction thing that Gabriel was talking about. That would also explain why the farther away from the mouthpiece, the less effect something seems to have on me.

[CharlieB]

Part of the way we hear ourselves is bone conduction inside our own heads.

AHA !
Thanks Gabe.
So, playing trombone vibrates one's skull.
That could explain a whole lotta stuff. ) ) )

[afugate]

.

[Doug Elliott]

Also there's some cancellation at the eardrum between the sound inside your mouth and what comes back in through your ears.

[paulyg]

Yup, phase lagged signals acting like a really crappy feedback cancelling mic.

[robcat2075]

Variation to try... sing "mmmmmmm..." then use the palm of your hand to seal off your outer ear.

The "mmmmmm" will sound louder.

[soseggnchips]

I find that a problem with earplugs: they do a good job reducing the volume of the other instruments, but as soon as I start playing all I can hear is me! I try to avoid using them wherever possible.

On the original point about mouthpieces... I do think a lot of the perceived difference between gear is to do with feedback and comfort rather than an actual change in the sound out front. That's not to say don't be discriminating about your gear; being comfortable and having the right feedback are really important... but don't be surprised if no-one else notices.

[imsevimse]

The first time I heard a recording of my voice played back to me, my reaction was, "That's not the way I really sound." I had the same reaction when my first trombone recordings were played back to me. In both instances, others listening to the playbacks assured me that the recordings were accurate reproductions of my sound.
For some reason, my brain seems to perceive the sounds it detects from my vocal chords or from a horn pressed against my face differently from the recorded sounds that align with what others hear. No clue why.

Yes, we ourselves are the only ones who never will hear our true own sound. When we hear it played back through speakers it is processed, but that sound is more close to the real sound we produce compared to the mix of sound that travels too our ears through bone and from the room.

/Tom

[musicofnote]

In terms of liking the results I'm -now- getting, in terms of actual playing, I find the Symington 1.5 (brass) is head and shoulders above the others. But I'm going to give it another week before recording the same pieces I did with the others to see how this one sounds on the bell side of the horn.

But I do have the subjective feeling, that my endurance, tone colors, slotting in all registers especially the paddle register, etc. are way better. Slapping stuff on the music stand right now is the first trial and i have the feeling, I'm playing "better" than ever before. Placebo effect? After all, Symingtons are supposed to be the best out there. Or is there some voodoo involved that lines up better with how I play than the others.

OTOH, I owe a debt of gratitude to my Wedge pieces that helped correct a couple of playing problems I'd been having before buying into that system 7 years ago. So I'll never say a bad word about those ...