Mouthpiece Fit?

[bassbonebuster]

What determines mouthpiece fit? I've played on 60 size mouthpieces for 20 years with some intermittent 59 size pieces. After seeing Aiden/Just Aiden, downsize with a tweak to his embouchure, it got me to thinking, how do we know we're playing a size that matches our face vs. making our face match the size? I'm not saying that's what happened in his case, but it did spur the question.

[BGuttman]

There are some members here who seem to have a knack for determining mouthpiece size. Doug Elliott immediately comes to mind.

I generally consider a mouthpiece too big if your upper register is flat or you really have to push to bring it in tune. A mouthpiece is too small if it feels like "tight shoes" and often makes lower tones difficult to play. Those are my criteria, but they are crude at best.

[ithinknot]

I generally consider a mouthpiece too big if your upper register is flat or you really have to push to bring it in tune. A mouthpiece is too small if it feels like "tight shoes" and often makes lower tones difficult to play.

Those are probably reasonable indicators for some people... enormously assuming that their basic mechanics are correct. Until such time, all bets are off.

When I was mistakenly playing like a sort-of-IIIB (read: like shit), suggestions like that wouldn't have led anywhere useful.

[ArbanRubank]

When I used to get into a tizzy b/c I couldn't find THE one that worked best, I said I was having a "mouthpiece fit".

[Burgerbob]

I'm not the expert, but I'll give the reasons I changed:

I've been using a 1 size for a few years now, after running into troubles with 1 1/4 in grad school. Doug recommended a 114 rim, and I went through... Probably 20 different mouthpieces in that size range. The vast majority of the time was on a Greg Black 1G .312 #2, though. When I was doing nothing but bass trombone I could make this work to a degree, but looking back I had many glaring holes in my abilities even at the best of times.

Recently, with huge leaps in my skills on all horns, those holes have become really obvious to me. I did a few things on bass trombone in a short period recently and I realized that my soft response was generally lacking, my sound only really filled out while playing loud, and my extreme registers in both directions were hard to call on in any but the best of circumstances.

On a whim, I went through my whole collection of pieces. The small stuff made some things better, but presented issues. The big pieces all had the same issues as before. On the 1 1/4GM, almost everything cleared right up. Flexibility, high range, articulations all improved immediately, and I enjoyed the sound I was making for the first time in a long time.

I haven't had that much time yet, but on the Markey 85 I recently acquired, I can just pick up the horn and make a good sound. No huge lengthy warmup with lots of suspicious sounds.

None of this is Doug's fault, to be clear. We didn't have a lesson, just an email conversation as far as I remember.

I spend a lot of time ironing out issues in my own playing before I change things- it may not seem like it, of course, but I always blame myself first. If things don't improve in a week of solid fundamental work, then it's time to change.

I'll admit under duress that it's hard to fight the ego; I wanted to play the big stuff because that's what the big boys do, and I fought tooth and nail to make it work for years. Maybe it's even right for me at some point, but right now, the 1 1/4 size is right.

[Posaunus]

... I wanted to play the big stuff because that's what the big boys do, and I fought tooth and nail to make it work for years.

Thanks for your candor, Aidan.

I briefly went in the same direction a few years ago, but backed off when I realized that I had bit off more than I could chew. Just because I could "play" larger pieces doesn't mean that they were the best for me.

As a doubler, smaller bass trombone mouthpieces (Schilke 58, Connstellation 3B, DE MB 108, Giardinelli 1G, Bach 1½G, ...) work just fine for me. I may soon be listing some larger pieces for sale.

[harrisonreed]

The way you do it is check to see if you can get your full register without physically shifting the mouthpiece "setting" on your face. If you can't play your full register, nothing is focused, and the mouthpiece feels too big ... Then it's too big for your face. If you can play the full register, but you need to make a big movement of the mouthpiece physically on your lips to play pedals or the upper register, then it's too small -- your embouchure doesn't have the room it needs to function.

It's as simple as that. Your embouchure does need to pivot and shift when you play, but the mouthpiece should not be physically sliding around on your face to ensure you to do that.

I'm the opposite as Aiden, here. I tried for years to get better and improve using a 5G sized piece. Several different things in that size range and it was the same problems over and over. I got jaw lock, had no endurance, couldn't play above a high C, and had a crazy shift in order to play pedals (almost all upper lip in the cup, going to an upstream airflow). It was terrible.

Trying something sized around a 2G was interesting at first, but once I learned better embouchure habits, I could play the whole register without excessive shifts or jaw lock or getting tired.

[Burgerbob]

I'll also mention that did the same as Harrison, trying to use a 6.5AL on small tenor for a long time. Doug solved that one for me.

[bassbonebuster]

I’ve been on a Yeo for the last 5 years because nothing sounded as good on my Yamaha 622. I recently changed to a Getzen 3062 and left the Yeo because of the bite of the rim. Great piece, just not comfortable. I got a 0G Lone Star because it was the only .312 #2 GB I could find in stock and it is also a great piece. Wonderful sound, comfortable, I have my full range, but my low range is weird. I can play in and out of the range just fine but I can’t play any sustained notes below the staff very long before they become defused and my air runs out immediately. I sense my aperture needs a better balance of air pressure and some support it’s not getting. So I think I’m going to start from scratch and begin in the 1 1/2 range and work my way up.

[blast]

You can make almost any size work. I know, I've done it in professional settings over many years. From a Bach 2G to an Elliott 116 rim size, all have worked for me. It takes time to go bigger and even more time to go smaller but it can be done. I sound pretty much the same on everything in the end. I use a MV 1 1/2G now because it makes the sound I want most easily. The idea that you have to 'progress' onto bigger mouthpieces is simply wrong. You can 'progress' in any direction. Use what works for the job you do. I like the ease of big mouthpieces but never found one that sounded how I wanted.

[WGWTR180]

I’ve been on a Yeo for the last 5 years because nothing sounded as good on my Yamaha 622. I recently changed to a Getzen 3062 and left the Yeo because of the bite of the rim. Great piece, just not comfortable. I got a 0G Lone Star because it was the only .312 #2 GB I could find in stock and it is also a great piece. Wonderful sound, comfortable, I have my full range, but my low range is weird. I can play in and out of the range just fine but I can’t play any sustained notes below the staff very long before they become defused and my air runs out immediately. I sense my aperture needs a better balance of air pressure and some support it’s not getting. So I think I’m going to start from scratch and begin in the 1 1/2 range and work my way up.

If you spend the right amount of time with the right 1 and 1/2G you might never "move up" again. However with the Getzen 3062, and I admit I know nothing about this instrument, if the Getzen has the larger tuning slide like it's Edwards sibling you might find the 1 and 1/2G a poor match.

[elmsandr]

I’ve been on a Yeo for the last 5 years because nothing sounded as good on my Yamaha 622. I recently changed to a Getzen 3062 and left the Yeo because of the bite of the rim. Great piece, just not comfortable. I got a 0G Lone Star because it was the only .312 #2 GB I could find in stock and it is also a great piece. Wonderful sound, comfortable, I have my full range, but my low range is weird. I can play in and out of the range just fine but I can’t play any sustained notes below the staff very long before they become defused and my air runs out immediately. I sense my aperture needs a better balance of air pressure and some support it’s not getting. So I think I’m going to start from scratch and begin in the 1 1/2 range and work my way up.

If you spend the right amount of time with the right 1 and 1/2G you might never "move up" again. However with the Getzen 3062, and I admit I know nothing about this instrument, if the Getzen has the larger tuning slide like it's Edwards sibling you might find the 1 and 1/2G a poor match.

The tuning slides are precisely common between the Getzen and the Edwards (unless you get one of the less common Edwards tuning slides).

Cheers,
Andy

[heldenbone]

If you spend the right amount of time with the right 1 and 1/2G you might never "move up" again. However with the Getzen 3062, and I admit I know nothing about this instrument, if the Getzen has the larger tuning slide like it's Edwards sibling you might find the 1 and 1/2G a poor match.

The tuning slides are precisely common between the Getzen and the Edwards (unless you get one of the less common Edwards tuning slides).

Cheers,
Andy

The Getzen 1062 is a marvelous match to the Symington 2, which is Bach 2G-ish but a couple millimeters deeper. I don't know how the tuning slides compare, but they both have the duo-bore .562 / .578 slide, so they should be similar elsewhere other than the 1062's stacked rotors.

[tbonesullivan]

I'll admit under duress that it's hard to fight the ego; I wanted to play the big stuff because that's what the big boys do, and I fought tooth and nail to make it work for years. Maybe it's even right for me at some point, but right now, the 1 1/4 size is right.

One of the things I remember from college is a master class with Michael Mulcahy, and a bass trombonist he worked with was using a "big boy" mouthpiece, and he sounded diffuse. Mulcahy asked him to get his past mouthpiece, and his playing, tone, range, everything instantly improved.

I am nowhere near as accomplished a player as you, but I also love 1 1/4G size pieces. The 1 1/2G just needed a bit too much work to make the low range speak. Maybe it was the throat, maybe the cup size, but with 1 1/4G mpcs, it just works.

[blast]

The tuning slides are precisely common between the Getzen and the Edwards (unless you get one of the less common Edwards tuning slides).

Cheers,
Andy

The Getzen 1062 is a marvelous match to the Symington 2, which is Bach 2G-ish but a couple millimeters deeper. I don't know how the tuning slides compare, but they both have the duo-bore .562 / .578 slide, so they should be similar elsewhere other than the 1062's stacked rotors.

The Symington 2 is a copy of a MV Bach 2G. A very good copy...not wider, not deeper. A copy.

[Rob1662]

Chris,
That's very interesting, my Symington 2 has a "double cup" - gets wider about 8 - 10mm from rim IIRC but my MV 2g doesn't, so not a copy as far as I can see?
My Symington is far better for me than the MV.

[blast]

Chris,
That's very interesting, my Symington 2 has a "double cup" - gets wider about 8 - 10mm from rim IIRC but my MV 2g doesn't, so not a copy as far as I can see?
My Symington is far better for me than the MV.

Things may have changed. I checked a couple of prototypes and found them accurate but that was around 4 years ago. Bill is the only one who knows for sure.

[SwissTbone]

FWIW my Symington 1½G's all play more open than my MV 1½G. Not a lot. But just that 1 percent that puts them from very good to great.

[blast]

FWIW my Symington 1½G's all play more open than my MV 1½G. Not a lot. But just that 1 percent that puts them from very good to great.

The 1 1/2 Symington is different from the MV that it was copied from (which was one of mine). This was in the early days of Bill's mouthpiece business. They messed up the rim...it came out very round and a bit too wide. I reworked the rim on the prototype and sent it back to Bill. It's wider than the original and that alone makes it freer blowing.

[SwissTbone]

FWIW my Symington 1½G's all play more open than my MV 1½G. Not a lot. But just that 1 percent that puts them from very good to great.

The 1 1/2 Symington is different from the MV that it was copied from (which was one of mine). This was in the early days of Bill's mouthpiece business. They messed up the rim...it came out very round and a bit too wide. I reworked the rim on the prototype and sent it back to Bill. It's wider than the original and that alone makes it freer blowing.

Good info! It turned out great for me!

[Ozzlefinch]

Interesting conversation. I have a bucket of mouthpieces of varying sizes, most are antique and don't have any markings. Played through them all and I settled on 3 that produce acceptable results. My rough estimate on the one that works best for me on my valve 'bones feels the same size as a Bach 6 1/2A, but has a funnel shape cup with a thin lip instead of the toilet bowl style. I would love to get a newer one, but how do I go about measuring or matching to something more modern?

[Posaunus]

The Symington 2 is a copy of a MV Bach 2G. A very good copy...not wider, not deeper. A copy.
[/quote]

Chris,
That's very interesting, my Symington 2 has a "double cup" - gets wider about 8 - 10mm from rim IIRC but my MV 2g doesn't, so not a copy as far as I can see?
My Symington is far better for me than the MV.

Perhaps the Symington 2G is a perfect copy of Chris Stearn's "Goldilocks" Bach MV 2G. But if the Mount Vernon mouthpieces were as variable as in other eras of Bach mouthpiece manufacture, my MV 2G may be rather different from Chris's (or the Symington) - and perhaps I would notice the difference.

Those who are particular may ever be seeking the Holy Grail! (Fortunately) I'm not good enough to discern the difference.

[BassboneJ25]

From Mr. Symington, just over 2 years ago.

[robcat2075]

Observations I've made in my own experimenting...

1. It takes so long to adapt to a different size rim and truly play on it to its potential that useful A/B comparisons are unlikely in brief try-outs.

• Fifteen or twenty minutes of noodling on a tuba, with a real tuba mouthpiece, pretty much ruins my (bass) trombone playing for the rest of the day. So that mouthpiece has a lingering effect on my playing even after I'm not using it. What does that say about anything I imagine I've observed in #1? And why doesn't this bullet point show up as "#2"?

[BGuttman]

With respect to your second observation, I've found (and heard it from other people as well) that going smaller in mouthpiece is harder than going larger. So playing bass trombone first before the tuba is much preferred to playing tuba first. The length of time you need to adjust is proportional to how much time you spend practicing switching back and forth. I played a gig where I had to double between bass trombone and tuba, sometimes switching in a bar or two, and was able to do it successfully (although that was a long time ago and I doubt I could do it now).

[Cmillar]

Having sought Doug's help and input to find the 'right' mouthpiece for my face is the single most important thing I've ever done in my career, and something I wish had been on my radar screen years ago.

What I've learnt from Doug over the past almost year from now having made a switch to a better rim in order to match my physical makeup:

- if you switch to a larger rim (tenor bone, small/large bore) from a previous much smaller rim, there is an adaptation time. But, assuming that you do the work and put the time in on some remedial Elliott/Rhinehardt exercises that have been specifically tailored to you as an individual, it's not that long in the big picture.
I mean really... what's a couple of months of getting totally used to something that gives you everything you've been looking for compared to a couple of months of more useless mouthpiece experimenting and wasting money and time working on brass playing concepts that aren't really solving anything that you're looking for?
The adaptation time really isn't anything to worry about. I started doing some pretty difficult playing gigs immediately after getting Doug's setup, and it only got better from there.

- adapting to a subsequent larger rim or different shape can be even more totally amazing and revelatory if Doug thinks you should even try something slightly different, depending on your horn, what kind of playing you're doing, how you're coming along in adjusting to his prescribed Elliott/Rhinehardt exercises, etc.

- using the same rim for small and large bore tenor is the way to go, because you can change the underparts. I knew of that concept 30 years ago, and it made perfect sense and is totally logical. But, I didn't work in any 'circles' of people who were doing that, and have spent thousands of wasted dollars in trying various mouthpieces over the years.

- we're all built differently. Many of us may have studied with some amazing trombone musician/teachers over the years, only to have been told a lot of 'recycled' theories of brass playing and told to 'do this', 'do that', 'play this', play that', etc. etc. Some amazing trombone players are so 'natural' that they just know how to play, but can't really explain what's going on in the real mechanics of trombone or brass playing. They 'just do it', and have grown up playing equipment that totally suits them. Very fortunate indeed.

- I, like many other trombonists, were playing a larger rim in music conservatory/college music days, and were playing extremely well on that equipment. But, then we got out into the 'real world' as a working professional, and ended up doing the majority of work on a small bore trombone and proceeding to try and find that 'magic mouthpiece' to suit the horn and the type of work we're doing. Playing at a high level, but knowing that there must be something that could make the work even easier, or which would let you play a better solo, play higher, louder, faster, etc. etc.
Must need a new horn! New mouthpiece! Try a flatter rim, a narrower rim, a different manufacture of the same size, gold plate, must need a NY Bach!, must need a $400 mouthpiece!, ....maybe a new horn would give me what I'm looking for!!!!

In reality, the smaller rim size had been hindering your playing along along. Your physical makeup just doesn't work that well with a small rim. Huh....what do you know?

I'd heard of the 'Rhinehardt Method' many years ago, but again, I didn't work or travel in any circles of trombone players who talked about it or knew anything about it. I've played in some great circles of professional musicians and trombone players over the years, but most people 'on this side of the ocean' seem to be in the 'Chicago-camp' or the 'Remington-camp', with some 'Caruso-campers' thrown in as well. It's probably fair to say that the majority of influential college/conservatory teachers today have been taught in one camp or the other themselves, and they're passing on what they understand.

To make a long story short, I believe that if you really want to figure out what kind of size rim to use on your face, discover what's really going on your playing, and get a better understanding of what are actually some of the good and bad habits you've accumulated over the years from having had lessons with many different players/teachers, get in touch with Doug Elliott.

You'll probably end up selling your entire 'shoe box' collection of mouthpieces, which you can then put towards a session with Doug and benefit from his expertise.

[LIBrassCo]

You can make almost any size work. I know, I've done it in professional settings over many years. From a Bach 2G to an Elliott 116 rim size, all have worked for me. It takes time to go bigger and even more time to go smaller but it can be done. I sound pretty much the same on everything in the end. I use a MV 1 1/2G now because it makes the sound I want most easily. The idea that you have to 'progress' onto bigger mouthpieces is simply wrong. You can 'progress' in any direction. Use what works for the job you do. I like the ease of big mouthpieces but never found one that sounded how I wanted.

This is more or less exactly how a feel. I prefer to play a 29 or 29.5 rim, but with the right design can still have a great sound on a 27mm.

[Bach5G]

As I get older, I’m beginning to doubt whether there is “optimal” anything in the world of trombone gear. A few hundredths of an inch here or there, “cartridge brass”, this leadpipe vs that leadpipe etc. and all the rest of the minutiae we obsess about—it’s fun but as they say, there’s a difference but is there a distinction? Maybe just find something that works well and then practice. Find a good teacher and take a lesson from time to time. (Instead of buying an Alessi mpc, buy an Alessi lesson).

[Cmillar]

As I get older, I’m beginning to doubt whether there is “optimal” anything in the world of trombone gear.

Well, as I get older, I realize that for serious brass players there really is 'optimal' equipment.

And, that you can keep progressing and maturing as a musician in every way.

Also, the 'younger' generation of serious players is extremely fortunate to be be living with all the resources and knowledge available to them compared to 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

The serious players in conservatories that are fortunate to have awesome teachers who can really steer them in the right direction as far as equipment, mouthpiece choices, etc. are really freaking amazing players as far as their technical aspects of playing the horn.

When I was a student, there was no internet, no online 'trombone forums', and the only way to find out a little bit of what was happening in the larger trombone world was to wait anxiously for your next issue of the ITA Journal, which only came out a couple times a year! Or, you had to depend on hand-me down information from some other players you meet along the way.

This is an amazing time to be alive for brass players as far as the knowledge available to us, and with all the various equipment manufacturers.

If you get the proper guidance, you CAN get a good setup that'll save you a lot of frustration and money.
Granted, you need some knowledgeable helpers and teachers to point you in the right direction.

This forum is a good place to start

[ArbanRubank]

Yes, indeed! We didn't commonly know anything about embouchure when I was a child. That knowledge might have had a partial existence in upper tiers, but it hadn't filtered down to any kind of local level - at least where I lived. I was living proof, having gone through three instructors to no avail. Today, garden-variety brass teachers (who may be able to play on a very high level) know they might not be up to speed on teaching it in a remedial way, other than pointing a student to exercises which might be revealing, a la Caruso.

I am also of the opinion that almost any size/shape can work - if we dog it enough. But why do that, if one in particular can make it noticeably easier and inherently better, so we can place the focus where it needs to be - on musicality.

[Bach5G]

What is interesting, CMillar, is that we have had several of the same teachers. We’ve played on a number of the same mpcs—inone case, the exact same mpc, as I bought a Marc from you once. I had a lesson with Doug E too. It was an “everything you know is wrong” moment for me.We had difficulty finding that sweet spot. I should move the mpc (for years I had been told ‘no movement in the embouchure’),and I was to use MORE pressure. I’ve also been up and down the mpc rollercoaster. I’m sure anything in the fat part of the bell curve would work. But the extremes—the 12C on the Bach 42, the large Alessi mpcs, no. I might be able to make them work, but why bother. I’m getting old. My current life expectancy is about that of a Labrador Retriever.

[robcat2075]

With respect to your second observation, I've found (and heard it from other people as well) that going smaller in mouthpiece is harder than going larger.

Yes, my example is probably a worst case.

However, I think even the lesser cases have an effect that is clouding mouthpiece tryouts.

When people say they have collected a box of discarded mouthpieces I think this is part of it... they tried something out at a store or by borrowing it briefly from another player and it seemed to offer some desired change, but it was a situation that was not going to be replicated in their normal playing.

After putting real time on the mouthpiece they are back where they started or maybe worse off for the change.

[GabrielRice]

Doug himself says he's not as sure what makes a good bass trombone rim size fit as he is with tenor. In a lot of ways it's about sound concept.

That said, I played a 112 and then 112 wide rim - like a Schilke 59, with comparable cups - for most of school and for several years of my professional career. I was a good player, won a couple of auditions, worked at a high professional level, but never had a great low register. At some point I started getting a little bigger, with a Ferguson JR and then LS, and then I hit a wall with some extreme low register demands that I was simply unable to play.

By then I was working at Shires and had friends in the biz who were willing to send me EVERYTHING to try. I settled on a Laskey 93D, which has a rim more like Doug's 115. It was a big jump, and I had to make some changes - but they were changes I needed anyway, to be honest.

After several years of a love/hate relationship with the 93D, I was finally able to go a bit smaller at the rim with Greg Black's 1G .312 #2, which has a throat and backbore somewhat similar to the Laskey. It was better in most ways, but I was still having some trouble controlling the sound and having the consistent tone production I wanted. Doug's XB series solved that for me, and now I play an XB 114 M/M8 almost all the time - and the constistency of response of his system allows me to go a little smaller in the cup for some things without huge adjustments. I have no desire to try anything else for the first time in a long time.


So...what have I learned?

If a bass trombone rim is too big, other things being roughly equal, you will likely have trouble sustaining, and you will also have difficulty playing consistently in the center of the pitch.

If a bass trombone throat/backbore is too big, other things being roughly equal, you will likely have trouble sustaining, and you will also have difficulty playing consistently in the center of the pitch.

If both the rim and the throat/backbore are too big, you might find you have diminishing returns when you practice a lot. I experienced this with the Laskey, and I talked with some other players who found the same.

If one or the other of these is adjusted to compensate, you have probably made the problem less bad, but there is likely still a problem.

To my ear, if a bass trombone mouthpiece is too small for the sound a player is trying to make - an important distinction - I hear slightly different but related problems: lack of flexibility, difficulty moving between partials, tone that lacks a certain kind of center...like they are playing around the sound.

And that said, there are players I have heard make absolutely monstrous tones on 1-1/2Gs. I've only played with Bill (above) a little, and he sounds great...the one you can hear on recordings of the Maria Schneider Orchestra is George Flynn. I got a chance to hear George live from the audience a few years ago and HOLY COW. I have also heard and played duets with Chris when he was playing a MV 1-1/2G, and he made a great bass trombone sound that would fit anywhere. My teacher Ray Premru played a modified MV 2G and had no trouble fitting in when he subbed with the NY Phil, Cleveland Orchestra, etc. after leaving London.

There are other factors than size, of course. Overall weight, weight distribution, rim width and contour, etc.

[Bach5G]

All this talk of mpcs makes me want to go practice.

[bassbonebuster]

Since picking up my 3062 and mouthpiece hunting, I've picked up a GB 0G Lone Star .312 #2 and his 1 1/2 G regular. Both pieces are so wonderful to play. I’ve solved my issues mentioned earlier and the Lone Star is everything I want in a mouthpiece in terms of comfort, sound, response, room, and range, but staying in shape on it is filling a bucket with a hole in it. I'm a band director and I stay in shape more than most, but not nearly as in shape as you full-timers out there so I'm not sure if I can maintain myself adequately plus I really don't play any gigs or venues where I have to play Brian Hecht/Paul Pollard bazooka bass. I got the 1 1/2G because I remembered something I read from I believe Alain Trudel, where he says he wants to play on as small a piece as he can so staying in shape is "easier". I'm curious to discover if I can settle into the 1 1/2G and worry less about staying in shape. It's a very comfortable piece with a wonderful sound and once I get through some upcoming gigs, I'll have a few weeks to acclimate without jeopardizing a performance. I'm excited either way. I've played Stock Griego's, Yeo's, DE's, Schilkes, Fergusons, Laskeys, Hammonds, and G&W's and I've never had a piece feel as good on my face as the GB's. I'm a month into my Lone Star and gravitate to it constantly. It physically feels pleasant to play and actually gives ease in the high register I've never had with other pieces, but I only last about an hour and I'm done for the day. I've only had the 1 1/2 three days and its seductive as well, but I can't get around in it just yet, but it is definitely different than the stock 1 1/2G manufacturers provide.

[MTbassbone]

I was a good player, won a couple of auditions, worked at a high professional level, but never had a great low register. At some point I started getting a little bigger, with a Ferguson JR and then LS, and then I hit a wall with some extreme low register demands that I was simply unable to play.

While I am not as accomplished as Gabe I ran into the same issue with the extreme low end. I have generally liked small diameter, slightly wider rims paired with smaller cups. I played a Stork 1.5S for 7-8 years, and really liked the cup shape. I played a Laskey 85MD and Griego 2 for a while as well. After experimenting with Doug's mouthpieces I liked a little wider rim with a shallow cup, typically, LB 112, J, J8 or if I have extreme low register needs L, L8. I also like the 113 and 114 sizes, and can't say enough positive things about the lexan rims. So comfortable. I don't get a long with the K cup though. I liked the mW version of the rims until I tried the standard versions after initially not liking them, and decided that worked better. I like Greg Black stuff but the throats are way too open for me. Even the smaller special order ones. Griego 1.25 to 2 are generally pretty good but I like Doug's stuff better.

For me the wider rim diameter with a shallow cup really works for me. The same is true on tenor (DE XT N104, F+, F8).

[Burgerbob]

All this talk of mpcs makes me want to go practice.

Feel free.

[blast]

I could never accuse the 1 1/2G of being the easy option...you have to work at the low register a lot. I have a mouthpiece in the collection that does everything and sounds great...but it hurts my face !! What is it ? A Burt Herrick one off.

[heldenbone]

The Getzen 1062 is a marvelous match to the Symington 2, which is Bach 2G-ish but a couple millimeters deeper. I don't know how the tuning slides compare, but they both have the duo-bore .562 / .578 slide, so they should be similar elsewhere other than the 1062's stacked rotors.

The Symington 2 is a copy of a MV Bach 2G. A very good copy...not wider, not deeper. A copy.

If I've confused matters or misunderstood the exchange in the URL below, I apologize. I only meant to convey my admiration and enthusiasm for Bill's labor of love.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... +2#p105557

[blast]

The Symington 2 is a copy of a MV Bach 2G. A very good copy...not wider, not deeper. A copy.

If I've confused matters or misunderstood the exchange in the URL below, I apologize. I only meant to convey my admiration and enthusiasm for Bill's labor of love.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... +2#p105557

Let's clear this up.. the original MV 1 1/2G that Bill copied had a B&S taper shank to fit old Conns. I forgot to tell Bill that and the early Symington versions had that shank. I think he now offers both styles of shank. The MV 2G that he copied came from Mr Deacon. I tried an early pre Pro model and thought it was excellent. The 2 is Bill's own choice of mouthpiece and he may well have developed the 2 over time so it may be a little different from the Bach original.

[WGWTR180]

FWIW my Symington 1½G's all play more open than my MV 1½G. Not a lot. But just that 1 percent that puts them from very good to great.

I agree with this!!!

[musicofnote]

Hello from Switzerland!

First post here in this board - I seem to remember an earlier one, but that was maybe a few years ago.

Quickly: Bass trombone player here: now playing a Yamaha Xeno 822g. Since 2017 I've been playing on a Wedge S59, which was a slight bit smaller than I'd been playing on the 20 years before (then on a Bach 50GO which I hated) - Slokar Bass mouthpiece which was huge. I liked the sound of the Wedge and the Wedge rim system helped me correct a slight embouchure problem left over from my previous life as a trumpet player. But about 6 month ago, after a pause of only playing once a week or so for about 10 months, I decided to get back on the horse seriously for a couple of planned concerts. And after this time, found the Wedge S59 a bit too large. More compression of the story line ... I now have a Wedge 110g Gen 2, which has better slotting, even nicer sound and I've got a usable range from pedal d up to c. But, the rim is different in contour, less bite, and when I get tired, tends to want to slip on the upper lip. Disconcerting, because this wasn't the case with the S59 or any before it. This only happens after "hammering" the chops for a good solid hour or so.

So, just to see if another non-Wedge rim worked better, I ordered a Griego Hecht 1 audition. Completely different rim, feels thinner and sharper, like my old Hammond 21BL, but the diameter isn't as big. But that's not the reason for the posting. The reason is, that when I took the Griego out of the box/pouch and put it into my Yamaha Xeno 822g, it ... didn't fit. It's too loose. I wrapped it with a bit of Scotch tape, which I'm sure is not ideal, but I was going to do this anyway, since I ordered this from Thomann in Switzerland and they offer 30 day guarantee on all products. So I protect the mothpiece with the tape and they can't say I scratched it if and when I send it back.

So my question, is this a Yamaha Xeno 822g thing? All my moutpieces insert relatively deeply, but the Griego simply doesn't fit - it's too small for the receiver. OR ... is this a Griego thing and others have experienced this with other basses with Griego moouthpieces.

Another unrelated question. Can anyone describe to me the difference between a Griego Hecht Audition 1 and a Griegp Markey 85?

Thanks in advance.

[harrisonreed]

Yamaha 882 eats mouthpiece shanks. Put some Teflon tape on the shank.

[musicofnote]

Harrisonreed:
"Yamaha 882 eats mouthpiece shanks. Put some Teflon tape on the shank."

Did you mean 882 or 822? I have the 822g. All my other mouthpiece go in deeply, but don't fall out. the Griego wanted to fall out.

[harrisonreed]

Sorry, I think I mismatched a number from your post. Looks like you changed it. Yeah, I'm talking about their bass pipes, not the tenor.

[musicofnote]

Sorry, I think I mismatched a number from your post. Looks like you changed it. Yeah, I'm talking about their bass pipes, not the tenor.

Ok, thanks, good to know. Wrote to Griego to see what they say about it. The Hecht Audition 1 turns out to be way too big for me, plus the rim is very thin and sharp, so no what I'm used to at all. It's going back to Thomann Switzerland next week.

[tbonesullivan]

Yamaha 882 eats mouthpiece shanks. Put some Teflon tape on the shank.

Are you thinking about the 613H and 830? Those have an insertion depth about 1/4" more than on all my other large shank trombones, even my 613RII.

[trombonedemon]

O G w/.323 backbore, sometimes feels to small until the pedal notes, go figure. Rim is very comfortable. Needed him to open the backbore to .323 though or the cup was easily overblown and the embouchure does weird things I was using Giddings Nor Easter. Sound is broader now.

[Fridge]

Just got my Symington 1.5 yesterday. A very fine mouthpiece! Plays better than either one of my MV 1.5’s. It’s better than I thought it would be. Going to spend a lot of time on this.

Fridge

[boneberg]

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the rim size/diameter, which is important. IMHO the cup depth, throat and backbore also play a considerable role when it comes to core sound, tone quality and range flexibility etc.
I'm currently switching back and forth between 3 bass pieces that have the same rim size/diameter, but different cups and throat/backbore specs.
Has anyone else made similar observations?