Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

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harrisonreed
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Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

Just throwing this idea out there, maybe to see if anyone else has thought of this and if it would be a viable idea or not. The are a ton of mouthpiece designs out there that would be awesome if not for the default rim that the buyer is forced into. Case in point, the 4CL is an absolute monster mouthpiece ... once you adapt it to DE XT threads. There are probably tons of mouthpieces like this out there.

There are mouthpiece makers like Matt Frost who claim they are able to copy mouthpieces, or rims, or underparts. Matt can copy an underpart for less than $205, I believe, and once that is done, additional copies are about $150. Again this is just an example.

What would you think if 20 or so people coughed up $10 to get the underpart copied (the original owner would get the copy), or whatever thing was getting copied, and then it would be available for whoever wanted it for a really reasonable price. This would be pretty interesting!

In my case, I have a really good mouthpiece underpart that is ready for whatever XT rim you have. This would let anyone who wanted the same do it for $150. This is, again, just an example.

I think the issue would be finding the right group of people, the right project piece, and a maker who really can copy something exactly.

The Symington pieces are another great example -- what if that had been crowd funded?

Thoughts?
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

I guess the success of a project would come down to:

1. Can someone prove they have a piece worth copying to people, or a project worth pursuing?

2. Would people be willing to fund some chump change to give the original owner their initial copy, just to make production copies available?

3. How would a group be able to assess or choose the right mouthpiece maker?


Again, who knows where this thought might take people on this forum. The things that come to mind are like, making rare and desirable Mt. Vernon pieces available to everyone, or creating an XT line of the CL series, or who knows? That's all I got for now.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by muschem »

Interesting idea. I think it seems a natural fit to crowd fund the higher initial costs for the copies.

This is a bit tangential, but I think it will be very interesting when the resolution of 3d scanners is high enough at a low enough cost to remove the barrier for small shops to use this method for high fidelity copy and reproduction. Perhaps not a great day for small makers producing the original designs, though. Most of the scanners with 10 micron (0.01mm) accuracy and 30-100 micron resolution are still prohibitively expensive from what I've seen. But, at some point, I'd imagine this would be a productive path to explore.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by CharlieB »

Mouthpieces are a very personal thing.
It seems illogical that you could ever get twenty people on this forum to agree on the piece to be copied.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by JohnL »

I would gladly contribute to such a project,but I wouldn't want to see a repeat of what happened with the duplication work I had done at Kanstul (i.e., files being lost).

The solution would be to release the dimensional data as open source. That would almost certainly mean that the cost of doing the original replication would be significantly higher, since further sales of that mouthpiece would be less likely - though any competitor trying to use the dimensional data to make direct copies would be at a significant competitive disadvantage. On the other hand, other makers could use the data to inform their own development process.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by jorymil »

I'd certainly be willing to contribute to a project that measures and publishes mouthpiece data, especially for out-of-production pieces, such as Olds, Conn, and Giardinelli. It makes a lot of sense to separate the design effort from the production effort.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

CharlieB wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:38 am Mouthpieces are a very personal thing.
It seems illogical that you could ever get twenty people on this forum to agree on the piece to be copied.

I'm not so sure about that. It would always be difficult, yes, but not impossible. Again, I bring up the Symington pieces, which had a ton of interest. I'm sure if a well meaning pro had such an original and had proposed the idea, it could have been funded that way.

If some random person proposed having their Bach 4G from 2017 copied, it would be more difficult.

Proposing copying XYZ mouthpiece underpart already adapted to a rim system that already exists and is popular might be easy. Then it's like you're almost making that design available to the widest number of users possible -- just bring your own rim.

The trick is coming up with project ideas that people would want. Mt. Vernon copies would probably be easy.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by blast »

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:00 pm
CharlieB wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:38 am Mouthpieces are a very personal thing.
It seems illogical that you could ever get twenty people on this forum to agree on the piece to be copied.

I'm not so sure about that. It would always be difficult, yes, but not impossible. Again, I bring up the Symington pieces, which had a ton of interest. I'm sure if a well meaning pro had such an original and had proposed the idea, it could have been funded that way.

If some random person proposed having their Bach 4G from 2017 copied, it would be more difficult.

Proposing copying XYZ mouthpiece underpart already adapted to a rim system that already exists and is popular might be easy. Then it's like you're almost making that design available to the widest number of users possible -- just bring your own rim.

The trick is coming up with project ideas that people would want. Mt. Vernon copies would probably be easy.
Well Harrison, like most stuff, this mouthpiece copying , especially with regard to rims, is not as straightforward as it might seem. Bill Symington is a very fired up person who has put huge amounts of time and energy and quite a bit of money into bringing classic Bach designs to modern players, but it has not been simple. CNC lathes are very impressive, but only as good as the people who program them. The first copy of my MV 1 1/2G that Bill commissioned was mostly very accurate but the rim was way off. It turns out that most rim profiles have a constantly changing contour that is very hard to reproduce. I re-profiled the prototype by hand, feeling the rim until I judged it correct. I think that pissed off the CNC people and they took the time to get the next one right. Copying is NOT simple. Copies are never the same as the original. Sometimes they come out better, sometimes worse, but always a little different.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by 2bobone »

Well -- It looks like "Blast" has taken another "perfectly good idea" and turned it into rubble ! He has obviously too much experience with reality and should be condemned, or at least deleted from this conversation. Personally, my mistake was suggesting that individuality was a major component in evaluating ANY change of equipment and that we needed to adapt to the equipment rather that expect the equipment to adapt to us. I was condemned as a "Boomer" ! At first I thought it had something to do with the condition of my intestinal tract but soon figured out that, as usual, I was out of touch with present day terminology and needed remedial intervention. Nontheless, I stand by my British friend and hope that trombonists universally will embrace his "Perfectly Good Idea Into Rubble" campaign and march forward , united in the idea that any good idea is worth disparaging ! Where were we ------ ?
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

I appreciate what Chris is saying though. Yes Chris, I've heard about that difficulty in the awesome thread that happened here a few years back. I was under the impression that Bill went into that project with a ton of passion but not a lot of experience in mouthpiece making. The end result is beloved and sounds like it was worth the adventure, but he might have gone about it differently than Pickett or Hammond or Stork might have done it.

Pickett for example, copied a trumpet player friend's one of a kind mouthpiece from his father, and they use a probe to do it down to the micron. The probe brushes along the profile of the original, which exactly guides the bit in the lathe, parallel to it. He could not tell the difference, other than the plating being a lot newer and less grippy. Pickett does keep the profile data from the probe in their database.

The Symington project though -- that seems like a success. Who foot the bill, if you don't mind me asking, and would it not have been an easier project financially if more interested parties were involved?

The point you bring up about rims is a good one. I'm sure that it is extremely difficult to get that profile correct, and maybe my friend's experience was atypical. That is one more reason why perhaps the way to go is to focus on underparts and adapting them to threaded rims that are commonly used. In my experience, the really exciting thing about a mouthpiece is the cup and bore profile, to begin with.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by CheeseTray »

Another question that crowd-funded copying raises for me is whether the original designs and specs are protected as intellectual property or as proprietary designs. Though the mouthpiece's proportions are easily to anyone with measuring equipment, would producing overt copies of designs originally developed by others be legal? Granted, as with copyright enforcement, pursuing enforcement falls to the creator/holder of the infringed upon material. In a small scale business like mouthpiece design and production, producers may not have the time or resources to sue. Nonetheless, I would assume that a practice such as crowd-funded copying would raise some hackles, given that it opens the door to mass "bootlegging" of any high-quality design and investment efforts put forth by established makers.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

This came up before. You can't claim a mouthpiece design as intellectual property, but things like names and trademarks are protected. Something has to be eligible for patent protection in order to be protected as a design. Mouthpieces as a concept are hundreds if not thousands of years old (depending on your definition), so you can't patent something like that, even if it is a unique variation on the basic mouthpiece design.

Case in point, if you play an axial valve, that design was ripped off almost the moment the patent expired, and nobody should care because it was legal to do so. So don't feel bad about it.

{Fixed a typo}
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by DougHulme »

I might be accused of being over simple here (KISS - thats me!) but surely Doug Elliots 'component' approach to mouthpiece making answers most of the questions or desires here. He has so many different cups, rims, backbores etc that can all be mixed and matched (within his guidelines) that most peoples needs and desires can be met anyway?... Doug
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by Matt K »

I think most of the crowdfunding sites (Kickstarter/Indiegogo?) allow you to have a model where you can propose multiple ideas and fund them individually, and if it doesn't materialize or meet a certain threshold then the money gets sent back to the "investors". There are definitely pieces that I would be interested in preserving or having access to (Mt. Vernon 2 & 3 sizes, sure why not) and others that I would have utterly no interest in (Anything smaller than a 6.5AL). But others might have exactly the opposite preferences. A model like that would let relative interest determine how quickly it gets funded, possibly with some being totally bankrolled by a single individual who might want a copy of something that doesn't have access to what they want, but someone else does.

I personally draw the line at not wanting to copy something, even if its legal, if the person who originally developed it is alive and they produce the thing I want. No issue whatsoever copying Mt. Vernon Bach pieces... production on those stopped well before I was born. But if I wanted a Lindberg underpart... I would feel obligated to buy one from Conn since they're still in production and the designer is still benefiting from it. (And I've done so, actually with a 5CL and am planning on having a 2CL threaded soon). But if I really wanted one in say, steel or titanium... well, I don't have much of a choice but to have it "duplicated" in these materials (I think? I've admittedly never tried because I don't particularly have an interest)... since I can't exactly call up CS and have them special order me a titanium 2CL.

Its true that the copies are likely never 100% to the original but it's better than nothing imo. And alterations, like rim contour, could potentially be submitted back up. That type of practice is more common in software because it's not a physical medium so it's a lot easier for others to contribute changes that benefit everyone... but could theoretically be applied to. Especially if the CNC hardware has a common programming paradigm.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by BGuttman »

The CNC hardware I've dealt with uses a language we referred to as "G" codes. It consists of things like "Go to X000000 Y0000000 and R 100000. G is a GoTo command with X and Y being positions in 0.0001" with the decimal point implied. R calls for a tool speed. Many CAD programs can output to G codes sort of like a compiler. I've heard the term APT being applied to a CNC language, but I'm not sure if it is the same thing.

Big problem in CNC programming is that positioning is a function of the quality of the machine, and that tools can "wander" based on how they are being used. If you put a lot of pressure on a router bit it deflects and your resultant size can be off. The skill of the CNC programmer is to compensate for the tool deviation to compensate for this effect.

CNC programming used to be a field in itself and learning how to made the machine conform to your wishes is difficult since each material you work requires a different "tweak", so if you have a program for making a brass mouthpiece and you want to do titanium, you need to change tool speeds, feeds, and tool wander compensations. And it gets more complicated from there.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by islander »

Ha. Interesting topic!

Chris is absolutely right in what he relayed to you guys in his post. It required - for me at least - very considerable effort to produce the two models that I make. I knew nothing about mouthpiece manufacture before I started and that went for my CNC chaps too. Everyone was learning - and learning to be patient too.

My interest in making mouthpieces came from a very specific ambition. It was not to make perfect copies of Mount Vernon bass mouthpieces, but to establish whether zirconium was an interesting material for a mouthpiece. The Mount Vernon thing came later - very much with Chris's help. The 2G was based on an MV that Philip Mata lent me. The resulting mouthpiece works really, really well - but did it play like Philip's MV? Not really. Copying is hard - I've yet to succeed in doing so, I guess. I can, however, claim to produce mouthpieces that are successfully inspired by others.

I'll be the first to say that I'm no artisan maker like Doug Elliott. I don't own a lathe, but I do know what one is. I know how to deal with my CNC guys and where to source zirconium bars. I know what bass mouthpieces i like to play - because I make those two types! My working methods would maybe exasperate most other makers. I have to deal with very long lead times when I want something done - and tweaking designs is very expensive and time-consuming. And I have a day job too.

I'm often asked whether I will get around to making a "big" bass mouthpiece. Maybe I will - but I'm not sure I'd know where to start. What could it bring to the world that Doug's system doesn't, or Greg Black's pieces? Not sure. But if I did I'd surely like to know what it would be like in Zr!

So if - through crowdfunding, say - I was approached to make a certain piece then I daresay I might well be motivated. But it could be a bumpy journey. Right now I have prototype 5Gs that have received mixed reviews from those that have played them. My own opinion on them is almost irrelevant - I sound awful on any 5G. So I might need to tweak the design, but to suit whom? If I took funding to produce a piece - and that piece turned out to be controversial - some funders liking it and others not - how would that leave me, I wonder? Caveat emptor, I suppose?

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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

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BGuttman wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:31 am The CNC hardware I've dealt with uses a language we referred to as "G" codes. It consists of things like "Go to X000000 Y0000000 and R 100000. G is a GoTo command with X and Y being positions in 0.0001" with the decimal point implied. R calls for a tool speed. Many CAD programs can output to G codes sort of like a compiler. I've heard the term APT being applied to a CNC language, but I'm not sure if it is the same thing.

Big problem in CNC programming is that positioning is a function of the quality of the machine, and that tools can "wander" based on how they are being used. If you put a lot of pressure on a router bit it deflects and your resultant size can be off. The skill of the CNC programmer is to compensate for the tool deviation to compensate for this effect.

CNC programming used to be a field in itself and learning how to made the machine conform to your wishes is difficult since each material you work requires a different "tweak", so if you have a program for making a brass mouthpiece and you want to do titanium, you need to change tool speeds, feeds, and tool wander compensations. And it gets more complicated from there.
This is partially correct. CNC lathes typically run X and Z axis. They get more complicated from there (c axis, live tooling, sub spindles, etc), but for this example let's stick with X and Z.

Here is how i do it from start to finish.

First you make a model of the part in whatever software you run. Once the model is made the program is written, this starts with definiting the setup (machine, what you are cutting from (stock size), defining the z axis, where the spindle is, etc. Once thats all done, you start selecting the operations. For me, I face the part, rough outside profile, outside finish, inside rough, then inside finish. All those tools need to be defined abd stored in a tool library. The variables being sets in each program are speed, max surface speed, feed, depth of cut, entry angle, clearance, stock to leave, rapids, the list goes on and on. You dont adjust "wander" which is really tool deflection, so much as generally just add a spring pass if necessary. On brass its not. From here i simulate the program and look for any issues (collisions beong the largest issue). Once all this is done, the program is post processed.

The next part is to load the program into your machine. At this point i click into the code and give it a read. This isnt entirely necessary, but if you're good at reading code any possible errors can be caught. From here, the offsets for the tools have to be set in the machine. I generally can skip this step after the first run because i have specific machines cutting specific parts, and other than to adjust for tool wear periodically once set these will not change. If this is an unproven program you may choose to run the program once without any stock in the machine to check for errors, with the rapids (when the machine moves and isnt cutting) turned down. Generally i choose to cut on the first run, just with the rapids turned down. After the program has cut a successful part, this is considered a proven program, and you can crank her up.

From here, there is additional adjustment on the machine for speed, and feed. These can be messed with to find where everything is cutting nicely. Its not uncommon to have to go back to adjust the program if you choose to adjust things like your css (constant surface speed), depth of cut, or how the piece is being cut entirely.

If all this went well, you're making parts. Only other thing is as far as quality of the machine the 2 big things for a lathe are rigidity (this is true for anything cutting metal) and accuracy (a function of what's telling the machine where it is, and precision of the components its constructed from (guides, drives, ways, etc). It is very easy to have an accurate lathe in comparison to a mill due to the nature of the machine. I dont have particularly high end machines, and i can hold to within .0005" without issue.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

Even if you were programming to mimic an existing rim profile?
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LeTromboniste »

This might interest some of the people on this thread:
https://www.vennture.mp/

They do scans, they created a CAD software for designing mouthpiece, which is free to use (they offer coachings on how to use it if needed). Can 3D print your designs to try them and then have the chosen design turned on the CNC lathe.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by elmsandr »

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:19 am Even if you were programming to mimic an existing rim profile?
That's the thing here... you need to be able to measure that existing profile, translate it to dimensions that can be programmed, then validate that what you programmed is what you got out (sometimes the same measurement technique, sometimes different).

Particularly here where the largest variation is probably the measurement... you've got at least two of those in the process. How did you measure, and then how did you approximate that into a profile to code? If it is a completely flat rim with completely perpendicular inner and outer surfaces, that's easy. Anything else is probably a guess at some point with some loss of fidelity in the gathered data.

Some CNCs are better than others at compensating for tool radius. Some tooling is better at keeping those radius values constant tool to tool. Some tool setters are better at getting the tools into repeatable positions. All of the fidelity of a copy, or even fidelity to a theoretical design, depends on what feedback is used to make a decision and how repeatable and accurate it is.

Now y'all got me wanting to look into high-def scanners again,
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LIBrassCo »

elmsandr wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:22 am
harrisonreed wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:19 am Even if you were programming to mimic an existing rim profile?
That's the thing here... you need to be able to measure that existing profile, translate it to dimensions that can be programmed, then validate that what you programmed is what you got out (sometimes the same measurement technique, sometimes different).

Particularly here where the largest variation is probably the measurement... you've got at least two of those in the process. How did you measure, and then how did you approximate that into a profile to code? If it is a completely flat rim with completely perpendicular inner and outer surfaces, that's easy. Anything else is probably a guess at some point with some loss of fidelity in the gathered data.

Some CNCs are better than others at compensating for tool radius. Some tooling is better at keeping those radius values constant tool to tool. Some tool setters are better at getting the tools into repeatable positions. All of the fidelity of a copy, or even fidelity to a theoretical design, depends on what feedback is used to make a decision and how repeatable and accurate it is.

Now y'all got me wanting to look into high-def scanners again,
Andy
?? You dont need a tool setter for lathe tooling. Tool radius is set in the software, this is easy stuff. Getting a good scan is also not difficult, I've had things scanned before.

Honestly making a copy isnt very difficult, the only reason i dont do it is theres not enough money in it for me.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by hornbuilder »

"There's not enough money in it for me"

Then you're not charging enough.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LIBrassCo »

hornbuilder wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:20 pm "There's not enough money in it for me"

Then you're not charging enough.
I cut 5 mouthpieces an hour at an average pace. Theres no planet where i can make up that money on 1 mouthpiece. Unless im making a batch of them its not with it. Now if I'm making 50, yea let's talk.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LeTromboniste »

hornbuilder wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:20 pm "There's not enough money in it for me"

Then you're not charging enough.
Danger, Will Robinson!
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

I didn't necessarily want this to go in that direction. I'm surprised that must of the responses are "maybe not the most feasible idea", instead of, "wouldn't it be good if...", but maybe that's indicative of the trouble with it.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by hyperbolica »

I don't think it's a great idea for a lot of reasons. First, there are so many mouthpieces being produced anyway, plus with the advances in design, do you really want to spend a lot of money to copy something 70 years old? You're not going to get everybody to agree to one maker, and if you do, what's that going to do to the other makers? Custom mouthpieces are one of those things that you never know if you're going to like it until it's done and the money is all spent. Pick specs on an automobile, and you know what you're getting. With mouthpieces you have a guess followed by a vague description.

About 20 years ago, Schilke had something on their website that allowed you to specify a mouthpiece design. I went through that and got me a nice custom mouthpiece with my name on it even. That was the most expensive paperweight I've ever owned. I played it for 2 minutes, and went back to what I was using before. Incredibly out of tune. Mouthpiece design isn't something you're going to be casually successful with. If you really want to experiment, 3d printing is sufficiently cheap. Running your own CNC lathe is not for everybody.

Scanners are going to have trouble with the backbore of the mouthpiece. That shallow incidence angle shining light down a long hole is going to have to be measured manually, like with gage balls, or you can cut the original in half.

We already have so many great designs, plus Doug's stuff is so modular and so figured out, I don't get the need for reproducing mouthpieces that a few retro grouches insist we should revere.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by muschem »

hyperbolica wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am Custom mouthpieces are one of those things that you never know if you're going to like it until it's done and the money is all spent. Pick specs on an automobile, and you know what you're getting. With mouthpieces you have a guess followed by a vague description.
I think 3d printing (which you mention below in the context of experimentation) and relatively affordable prototyping changes this... or, at least, it could. Once the initial costs of producing an accurate 3d model of the original have been covered via the crowd funding approach, printing test copies should be pretty easy. These days, many of us have 3d printers at home anyway. If the 3d models were open-sourced, which was suggested earlier in the thread, then you could potentially print your own copy to test before ordering a metal version. I think this significantly reduces the dice throwing of ordering a given design. 3d printed prototypes wouldn't be perfect... the material difference alone would make for some significant differences in feedback, resonance, etc. - but, if you just want to see if a particular cup shape/depth and backbore design is in the right ballpark for your sound concept, this approach might reduce some of the guesswork.
hyperbolica wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am Mouthpiece design isn't something you're going to be casually successful with. If you really want to experiment, 3d printing is sufficiently cheap. Running your own CNC lathe is not for everybody.
I don't think net-new design is the goal here, and as you say, that process is fraught. Rather, making copies of existing designs, which have already been successful for some seems the proposed target. Will those designs work for everyone? Nope. Could you gather enough interest in funding a copy of a given design/example? Mabye, maybe not... the crowd funding approach answers this - you either hit the project funding goal or you don't. No need to speculate on which designs people would support - they vote with their funding.

Agreed on 3d printing, as above. This has reached a cost-effective price point for the average tinkerer to explore, and printing out existing models is straightforward. Also agreed on CNC operation - that is usually best left to those with the right tooling and experience. I see nothing wrong with a hybrid model, here. 3d print test copies, which you might have interest in, and then pay an experienced custom mouthpiece maker to reproduce any design you believe has potential after trying the prototype.
hyperbolica wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am Scanners are going to have trouble with the backbore of the mouthpiece. That shallow incidence angle shining light down a long hole is going to have to be measured manually, like with gage balls, or you can cut the original in half.
This, I believe, is one of the major challenges - producing an accurate copy to begin with. Once a copy is funded, accurately produced, and made available as open-source, the back half of this seems all downhill to me.
hyperbolica wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am We already have so many great designs, plus Doug's stuff is so modular and so figured out, I don't get the need for reproducing mouthpieces that a few retro grouches insist we should revere.
Personally, I don't really see a need for exploring designs beyond what Doug offers. His system is robust, flexible, and capable way beyond my meager abilities. The new designs are fantastic. That said, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone, and I (as a consumer) see no major downsides to having more options available. While there are definitely some challenges to crowd funding mouthpiece copies, it does seem to me a feasible approach for those who have an interest.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by elmsandr »

hyperbolica wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:06 am I don't think it's a great idea for a lot of reasons. First, there are so many mouthpieces being produced anyway, plus with the advances in design, do you really want to spend a lot of money to copy something 70 years old? You're not going to get everybody to agree to one maker, and if you do, what's that going to do to the other makers? Custom mouthpieces are one of those things that you never know if you're going to like it until it's done and the money is all spent. Pick specs on an automobile, and you know what you're getting. With mouthpieces you have a guess followed by a vague description.

About 20 years ago, Schilke had something on their website that allowed you to specify a mouthpiece design. I went through that and got me a nice custom mouthpiece with my name on it even. That was the most expensive paperweight I've ever owned. I played it for 2 minutes, and went back to what I was using before. Incredibly out of tune. Mouthpiece design isn't something you're going to be casually successful with. If you really want to experiment, 3d printing is sufficiently cheap. Running your own CNC lathe is not for everybody.

Scanners are going to have trouble with the backbore of the mouthpiece. That shallow incidence angle shining light down a long hole is going to have to be measured manually, like with gage balls, or you can cut the original in half.

We already have so many great designs, plus Doug's stuff is so modular and so figured out, I don't get the need for reproducing mouthpieces that a few retro grouches insist we should revere.
FWIW, when I took data to make a combined copy of three different 3Gs (and really, to see the difference between them), I used a tracer pattern with a very small ruby on a zeiss scanning CMM. Very good and fairly accurate for validating forms on small round parts. Gage balls are good, and we verified some things with them, but that involved a lot of figuring out how to put the pieces together.

Either way; I got a LOT of data, but very little information. I know exactly what my Mt.V 3G looks like compared to my stock ~2000ish 3G compared to [redacted pro's] favorite 3G. You can bring up all the images at once and make them different colors! So what! What we did not have was a mathematical representation of the profile that makes sense to a theory... sure you can see a cylinder for the throat... but for the backbore, the next section, should we make a best fit straight line or try to fit the slight curve that is there? How many segments do we want to interpolate the cup and throat in to make it make sense? Do the second, third, and fourth orders need to be continuous like a cam? I can see that there is some non concentricity in the [redacted] and my Mt.V... is that something that is desirable to copy? Same for roundness, could be better on the older pieces, what diameter do we want to call the "true" size, min/max/average/best fit/least sum of squares/etc...? It is a point cloud, not a circle on the screen, and if I have the software select things to make shapes and then use that shape... it does not look like a usable mouthpiece.

Getting data is not especially difficult. Getting usable data and doing something intelligent with it can be. If I provide this scan data to somebody, and they use it to make a copy but then measure and verify with an entirely different method, was it replicated faithfully? How would we know?

I would like to see a useful scanning method that is cost effective, repeatable, and reproducible. This way we could make an interesting library of existing pieces. Still would not get us much closer to the desired state, but a nicer data set could provide an interesting starting point for some theoretical work. I'm not sure if 3D printing is really ready for this level of detail yet, but it is getting close. Having a good measurement system to compare could help answer this as well.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by endonahighnote »

Hello all. Sounds like a convo where Vennture may be of assistance.
LeTromboniste wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:18 am This might interest some of the people on this thread:
https://www.vennture.mp/

They do scans, they create a CAD software for designing mouthpiece, which is free to use (they offer coachings on how to use it if needed). Can 3D print your designs to try them and then have the chosen design turned on the CNC lathe.
Thank you for the shout-out! We just released v3.3.4 of VennCAD, which is free to download as LeTromboniste stated. You can do trombone, tuba, etc as well as all the high brass instruments. We will do high-accuracy scans for $40 that you can import into VennCAD and view. And edit. And 3D print FOR FREE from VennCAD if you have a printer. 3D printers (especially the resin ones) are cheap and fairly accurate, and highly repeatable. We find that the biggest deviation is in the throat area, which tends to end up too small. What we have built into VennCAD is an STL exporter where you can enter correction factors for the outer diameter, inner diameter, and throat. If you enter 0 for all, you get an STL with the exact dimensions of your scan (and any modifications you have done to it). If your throat is .005" small, you enter +.005" as your correction, and it generates an STL with the throat opened by .005. And so forth.
We are ALL ABOUT community collaboration. If several of you would like, I would be happy to hold a Zoom meeting to demonstrate VennCAD and how it could be a (the?) critical tool for a project like this. A picture is worth a thousand words. Seeing a mouthpiece in cross section and being able to manipulate it easily make understanding and good designs MUCH easier to come by.
elmsandr wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:23 am Either way; I got a LOT of data, but very little information. I know exactly what my Mt.V 3G looks like compared to my stock ~2000ish 3G compared to [redacted pro's] favorite 3G. You can bring up all the images at once and make them different colors! So what! What we did not have was a mathematical representation of the profile that makes sense to a theory... sure you can see a cylinder for the throat... but for the backbore, the next section, should we make a best fit straight line or try to fit the slight curve that is there? How many segments do we want to interpolate the cup and throat in to make it make sense? Do the second, third, and fourth orders need to be continuous like a cam? I can see that there is some non concentricity in the [redacted] and my Mt.V... is that something that is desirable to copy? Same for roundness, could be better on the older pieces, what diameter do we want to call the "true" size, min/max/average/best fit/least sum of squares/etc...? It is a point cloud, not a circle on the screen, and if I have the software select things to make shapes and then use that shape... it does not look like a usable mouthpiece.

Getting data is not especially difficult. Getting usable data and doing something intelligent with it can be. If I provide this scan data to somebody, and they use it to make a copy but then measure and verify with an entirely different method, was it replicated faithfully? How would we know?
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! We invested a LOT into VennSCAN (our portable, high-accuracy scanning machine plus the software suite that crunches the 40,000-100,000 points gathered in the scanning process and curve-fits them into the various parts of the mouthpiece) in order to make quality scans perfect for viewing, editing, or simple replication.
Honestly, CNC machining accurately isn't all that hard. It's all about the scanning, when it comes to duplication. Those 3-axis CMMs are very accurate from point to point, but gathering enough points to accurately offset the probe balls, plus curve fitting them into anything meaningful, and then turning that into lathe instructions - it takes a lot of know-how. And VennSCAN+VennCAD+VennCAM does it in one click. It take me 5-10 minutes to scan a mouthpiece accurately, and about 1-2 seconds for VennCAM to rip it up, chew it, and spit out G-Code straight to the lathe computer. I can be cutting immediately. And the accuracy - we re-scan the copies and overlay them. They match to a very tight tolerance - and top orchestral pros (I'll skip name-dropping for now, but...trust me) can't tell the difference.
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:47 pm Pickett for example, copied a trumpet player friend's one of a kind mouthpiece from his father, and they use a probe to do it down to the micron. The probe brushes along the profile of the original, which exactly guides the bit in the lathe, parallel to it. He could not tell the difference, other than the plating being a lot newer and less grippy. Pickett does keep the profile data from the probe in their database.
Except for surface finish - as Harrison noted. And we have even been experimenting there - using vibratory finishing or glass bead blasting to slightly "age" the rim to the point of what many pros like - brand new mirror-polished rims are preferred by some, but many like more grip. And we want to do that in repeatable, controlled ways.
Anyway-I'd love to be part of the convo! We at Vennture are always hoping to do something new and exciting. And many of the questions you're wrangling with and discussing - we have spent several years getting it down to a science.
I'll also throw something else out there - the real cost, for my company, when it comes right down to it, is customer service. Honestly, making 10 of one model or one each of 10 different models, is the same to me. Maybe food for thought: if a community or consortium effort wanted to come up with one or more than one design, I'm happy to produce them at reduced cost - even white label manufacturing, where the consortium's logo is on it instead of mine. The key is, to make it cost-effective, if I get a batch of files and a simple punch-list of how many of each and what kind of engraving and plating for each, it is MUCH easier. Because the cost of back-and-forth with 10 different people, asking for their input, sending out 10 different invoices, shipping to 10 different places - if one person acts as the "bundler," gives me that punch list of completed (VennCAD) designs and I can bill once and ship once - I can work much cheaper.
Anyway, great discussion. Let me know if I may be of help.
-Doug McVey
founder, Vennture Mouthpieces
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by hyperbolica »

Another problem is that the cup and rim are made by making very small passes with a general cutting tool from the axial direction. The outside of the mouthpiece is cut from a different direction. But the backbore can be cut in many different ways. Because it is so small, you could have a special reamer made for a given profile such that the reamer just goes to a certain depth and the shape of the cutter forms the backbore, or you could use a very small boring bar but you'd need to drive the profile with CNC (and from the other direction).

Mouthpieces aren't designed to be manufactured easily.

The "scan" is best done with a touch probe. But the longer the probe to get into the interior spaces, the less accurate the data. Most of the laser scan data I've worked with is overkill by a factor of 10 or even 100. You only need that when you have a lot of detail, which you don't have on a mouthpiece. You have to assume splines on all of this. If it's a straight line, that matters. You can make a straight line with a spline, but you can't make a spline with a straight line. Plus, you don't need 3D data, unless you want a deformed mouthpiece. You have to assume rotational symmetry, but you also have to collect enough data to establish rotational symmetry.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

endonahighnote wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:05 am
Anyway, great discussion. Let me know if I may be of help.
-Doug McVey
founder, Vennture Mouthpieces
Thanks for this cool post. I think I'm going to save up and test the waters with that rim project I emailed you about, possibly with a scan. If it's not right away, it's not because I'm not interested, it's because I have a CFO I'm married to :-D

I'm going to download and check out the cad software too.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

I have taken one step and sent some of my mouthpieces out to be scanned by Venture. I'll let you know how it goes!
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by WGWTR180 »

hornbuilder wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:20 pm "There's not enough money in it for me"

Then you're not charging enough.
He's also not interested in copying mouthpieces. He wants his work to "stand on its own."
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by WGWTR180 »

LIBrassCo wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:23 pm
hornbuilder wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:20 pm "There's not enough money in it for me"

Then you're not charging enough.
I cut 5 mouthpieces an hour at an average pace. Theres no planet where i can make up that money on 1 mouthpiece. Unless im making a batch of them its not with it. Now if I'm making 50, yea let's talk.
You didn't tell me this when I asked if you could attempt a copy of my MV. You stated you weren't interested in making copies that you wanted your work to "stand on it's own."
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LIBrassCo »

WGWTR180 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:37 am
LIBrassCo wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:23 pm

I cut 5 mouthpieces an hour at an average pace. Theres no planet where i can make up that money on 1 mouthpiece. Unless im making a batch of them its not with it. Now if I'm making 50, yea let's talk.
You didn't tell me this when I asked if you could attempt a copy of my MV. You stated you weren't interested in making copies that you wanted your work to "stand on it's own."
Both are true, but when asked it's easier to go with the non financial reason. There is a group of individuals then even if you were to make a 100% exact copy will find fault in it. For full disclosure I also offered to do a custom designed one for you, which I dont charge extra for.
Check out our new bass trombone doubling mouthpieces: https://www.librassco.com/broadway-bass
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by WGWTR180 »

LIBrassCo wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:48 am
WGWTR180 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:37 am

You didn't tell me this when I asked if you could attempt a copy of my MV. You stated you weren't interested in making copies that you wanted your work to "stand on it's own."
Both are true, but when asked it's easier to go with the non financial reason. There is a group of individuals then even if you were to make a 100% exact copy will find fault in it. For full disclosure I also offered to do a custom designed one for you, which I dont charge extra for.
Appreciated but I'm always interested in the real reason. I still don't believe that an exact copy can be made of anything although you're the first one who claims they can. I'm also realistic and wouldn't expect it to be 100% the same-but once you were paid you've done your job. And yes you did offer to do a custom piece but I've tried everything in this exact range and then some. Other designs fall short for what I'm looking for because they are different. I can't do what you do-well I could but my pieces would look like melted candles or worse. But for me I know what works and what doesn't. That's why a "copy" interested me and not a different cup shape mated to a larger throat or back bore. But thanks.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by blast »

Most copies fall short of the original. There are exceptions such as Bill Symingtons pieces which are a little different but attract many adherents as they seem to move the game on. There are many great makers out there, some on this forum. To make a genuine copy is another matter as WGWTR 180 said.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by LIBrassCo »

WGWTR180 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:11 am
LIBrassCo wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:48 am

Both are true, but when asked it's easier to go with the non financial reason. There is a group of individuals then even if you were to make a 100% exact copy will find fault in it. For full disclosure I also offered to do a custom designed one for you, which I dont charge extra for.
Appreciated but I'm always interested in the real reason. I still don't believe that an exact copy can be made of anything although you're the first one who claims they can. I'm also realistic and wouldn't expect it to be 100% the same-but once you were paid you've done your job. And yes you did offer to do a custom piece but I've tried everything in this exact range and then some. Other designs fall short for what I'm looking for because they are different. I can't do what you do-well I could but my pieces would look like melted candles or worse. But for me I know what works and what doesn't. That's why a "copy" interested me and not a different cup shape mated to a larger throat or back bore. But thanks.
Bill- with all due respect, it's honestly impossible to know what my mouthpieces would or wouldn't do for you without you actually trying one. Custom is just that, custom. Your spec for rim size, cup depth, throat, etc. There is always more than one way to get to the same place, and without actually giving it a go there's no telling what the end result would be. You're very welcome to come down to the shop, try some stuff, and even test run a custom cut for yourself. I've been spending a bit of time working on 27mm variants, have even been playing one of them for the last 5-6 weeks.
Check out our new bass trombone doubling mouthpieces: https://www.librassco.com/broadway-bass
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by WGWTR180 »

:good:
LIBrassCo wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:43 am
WGWTR180 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:11 am

Appreciated but I'm always interested in the real reason. I still don't believe that an exact copy can be made of anything although you're the first one who claims they can. I'm also realistic and wouldn't expect it to be 100% the same-but once you were paid you've done your job. And yes you did offer to do a custom piece but I've tried everything in this exact range and then some. Other designs fall short for what I'm looking for because they are different. I can't do what you do-well I could but my pieces would look like melted candles or worse. But for me I know what works and what doesn't. That's why a "copy" interested me and not a different cup shape mated to a larger throat or back bore. But thanks.
Bill- with all due respect, it's honestly impossible to know what my mouthpieces would or wouldn't do for you without you actually trying one. Custom is just that, custom. Your spec for rim size, cup depth, throat, etc. There is always more than one way to get to the same place, and without actually giving it a go there's no telling what the end result would be. You're very welcome to come down to the shop, try some stuff, and even test run a custom cut for yourself. I've been spending a bit of time working on 27mm variants, have even been playing one of them for the last 5-6 weeks.
:good:
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by JohnL »

blast wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:44 am Most copies fall short of the original.
I think part of that is that almost no one is going to shell out to copy a mouthpiece they aren't pretty much in love with - which means that almost any deviation is going to be noticed in a negative way.

If someone were to have a copy made of a mouthpiece that their indifferent to, there's a decent chance the result would be an improvement. Maybe that's what we should do - make sloppy copies of so-so mouthpieces, then pass 'em around to see if they strike anyone's fancy.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by pompatus »

JohnL wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:19 pm
blast wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:44 am Most copies fall short of the original.
I think part of that is that almost no one is going to shell out to copy a mouthpiece they aren't pretty much in love with - which means that almost any deviation is going to be noticed in a negative way.

If someone were to have a copy made of a mouthpiece that their indifferent to, there's a decent chance the result would be an improvement. Maybe that's what we should do - make sloppy copies of so-so mouthpieces, then pass 'em around to see if they strike anyone's fancy.
Not totally what you’d had in mind, I’m sure, but I find the idea of reworking a poor mouthpiece kind of fascinating. Rather than the “waste” of a drawer full of mediocre or poor performing old mouthpieces, what if someone had a known-good CNC program that could just recut the inner mouthpiece and rim profile, and just leave the outer shape as-is. Seems like you’re saving material if you’re not having to machine the outer shape. It could be an interesting way to make use of all those megatone mouthpieces people went nuts for in the 90s.

One downside I could see, though, is that you’d end up with a lighter piece, even if only slightly, unless you reprofiled something with a heavy weight outer blank.

Alternatively, what if the inners were all remachined, then just threaded for a screw rim of your choice.

(Original post deleted as irrelevant to discussion topic)
Last edited by pompatus on Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

If my mouthpieces can ever leave Japan in the mail .... They'll get scanned and I'll update you all. Kind of looking forward to working with the VennCad software.

I sort of like that you can use a normal blank shape and hide the fact that you are using a weird mouthpiece.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

Got two 3D prints in the mail. I have a version of my current tenor piece with an ever so slightly smaller rim cup diameter (original was 1.06", new is 1.05") but a drastically rounder rim. It's still about as narrow as the XT106N, however. Even though the cup diameter is smaller, the rim feels slightly larger, I think because of the round contour. Every other internal aspect is identical to my original piece as near as I can tell, down to the shank diameter, backbore, insertion depth, etc -- Vennture did a fantastic job scanning it.

It's very interesting -- I'm not sure if it's the reduced weight or the new rim contour, but I don't seem to chop out on this new design. It also articulates like crazy. I'm not a big fan of plastic rims, and don't think the sound is as good as my current piece (I'm sure a lot of this is because of the weight difference), but the actual performance of the mouthpiece is pretty great.
1652846104384.jpg
I might tweak a few things. I think I can go a hair less cup diameter for the large piece, and a good bit smaller on the alto piece. With flat rims everything needs to be the same for me, but this round rim is more forgiving.

An insane value, $65 total, including shipping, for the prints.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by SwissTbone »

Nice! What are you going to do from there? Do you change stuff on your own with the software and then get new prints?
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

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SwissTbone wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:03 pm Nice! What are you going to do from there? Do you change stuff on your own with the software and then get new prints?
Yes, I'm going to tweak the design a bit more, but probably won't do another prototype. I'm going to get a brass mouthpiece cut now. If I like these initial two, maybe I'll do a jazz piece too.
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by hyperbolica »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:09 pm
... An insane value, $65 total, including shipping, for the prints.
There were secondary operations on those printed rims, which of course removes material, like polishing. You're trying to quantify a voodoo system with an imprecise pair of processes followed by a secondary hand process in a material you don't think makes good mouthpieces? What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

image_16886017.JPG
Well, I'm told it's off to be plated on Monday. Should have it by July, I think. I'll do my best to objectively lay out how everything went once I get it!
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by Kdanielsen »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:52 pm image_16886017.JPG

Well, I'm told it's off to be plated on Monday. Should have it by July, I think. I'll do my best to objectively lay out how everything went once I get it!
Any updates??
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

Kdanielsen wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:28 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:52 pm image_16886017.JPG

Well, I'm told it's off to be plated on Monday. Should have it by July, I think. I'll do my best to objectively lay out how everything went once I get it!
Any updates??
Haven't gotten it yet. I'll post as soon as I do!
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Re: Crowd Funded Mouthpiece Projects?

Post by harrisonreed »

DSC_0942.JPG
Second day out playing my new mouthpiece. Vennture promised a 4 week turnaround with plating and they delivered. The mouthpiece and workmanship is beautiful.

The mouthpiece plays very well, it's probably the new mouthpiece effect, but it is a lot easier to play than the three other pieces I based it on. I really like the sound too.

I'll post recordings as they come up.

I will say that the 3D printed prototype was more of a proof of concept. It was pretty close to this final brass piece, and felt familiar, but this brass cut feels EXACTLY the way I wanted it too. The 3D print merely proved that I hadn't gone horribly wrong with the design. If you are going off of known designs that already work for you, the 3D print may be unnecessary.
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