receiver issues Benge 170

[Diana6]

I’m trying to figure out why the receiver on my son’s Benge 170 is small (maybe short?) and does not take standard mouthpieces. They only insert to about 3/4” instead of 1”.

When I look inside the receiver with a strong light, I can see a line (ring) that looks like a separation. Is this where the lead pipe begins? Are the receiver and the leadpipe 2 separate pieces?

When I measure the depth of the receiver piece, it is about 3/4”. Should a mouthpiece insert to this point and not go beyond the ring into the leadpipe?

We thought that we should get a special “Olds” style taper shank for this Benge, but is this the right thing to do? I assume that it would insert past the receiver into the leadpipe?

I do think that it is hard to play when compared with his other horns. Trying to figure out what to do. I’m setting up a lesson with Doug E. so he can evaluate his playing and suggest a mouthpiece. But, I want to understand the relationship between the receiver and the leadpipe before considering a special taper. Maybe a mouthpiece that is a shorter length would be better?

Hope this makes sense and that someone can explain these issues.

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like it has a King-style two piece leadpipe. Those should fit mouthpieces normally, though. Might need a new one.

[Diana6]

Do you mean it may need a new leadpipe or receiver or both? Not sure how this works.

[Posaunus]

Benge 170 should accept a standard small-shank mouthpiece (not an Olds). The leadpipe may have been dislodged or damaged. Do you have access to an experienced trombone tech to take a look at it?

[Diana6]

I took it to Dillons last month. They told me that it's okay that the mouthpiece doesn't insert very far. I didn't want to contradict them, especially when they removed a few dents and straightened the bell out a bit and didn't charge me.

I really don't think they took a good look at the receiver and leadpipe. They were just trying different mouthpieces to see how they fit. An Olds 3 fit in 1". They said to just use a standard mouthpiece, but from what I've read and from what Doug E. told me, mp's should insert 1" or close to that.

When I bought it, I also took it to the local tech who fixes all the instruments around here. He said it was fine, but we were unaware about the receiver issue at the time.

Thought I found a good pro horn for a bargain, through a reputable store, but the condition was misrepresented. That's another story. It's been a real headache.

[imsevimse]

It affects playability. If the mouthpiece does not go in as far as it should. It will also affect intonation.
To my experience next to the mouthpiece the leadpipe is what's most critical. Just a small amount of dirt in the leadpipe and it can really change a horn.

Are you sure that "stop" in the leadpipe isn't dirt. I had to carve the dirt out with a pen knife from a King 2b leadpipe. That trombone played really bad and when I looked down the reciever I saw a "stop". It was hard as concrete when I poked at it. After I removed all that dirt the horn played great. The owner had no suspicion about what the problem was and he is a professional player. He just thought the horn was really bad. That dirt sure looked and worked as a stop to the mouthpiece, and each time the mouthpiece was inserted more dirt buckled up against what already was in there.

To my experience the most critical part after the mouthpiece is the leadpipe. It does not take much dirt there before a horn becomes strange. To clean the leadpipe can be as having a new horn after, and that's just when there was a SMALL amount of dirt removed.

/Tom

[Diana6]

I took a good look through the inners with a backlight. It's not clean and smooth, but I don't see any hard pieces of junk near the receiver end.

Should I try to clean it like this?

Post by ithinknot » Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:17 am
If there's hard-to-move crud visible on the outside of the inner slide, that's only the visible half of the problem - there's going to be hard-to-move crud on the inside of the outer slide too.

Find a corner of the shower where you can safely stand the slide vertically. Fill the outer with white vinegar, put the inner slide in, leave standing for 15 mins or so. Rinse off the outside - the vinegar isn't going to harm 70s King lacquer in that time, but you might not want it all over your shower tray and fittings.

Scrub out with a snake brush and some dish soap. Ultra-fine scotchbright on the chrome is fine, though you might not even need it after the soak.

Rinse, remembering to turn the inner slide upside down and really flood the cork barrels just to get the vinegar smell out of the corks/felts.

I need to get a snake... do standard trombone snakes fit through the inner tubes and are they safe for leadpipes?

Should I have the local tech do this? Can I do damage to the leadpipe with a snake?

Are there any other methods that are better for cleaning the lead pipe and the inside of the inners?

This is not going to change how mouthpieces fit into the receiver, but it should be cleaned I think, right?

[imsevimse]

When I look inside the receiver with a strong light, I can see a line (ring) that looks like a separation. Is this where the lead pipe begins? Are the receiver and the leadpipe 2 separate pieces?

When I measure the depth of the receiver piece, it is about 3/4”. Should a mouthpiece insert to this point and not go beyond the ring into the leadpipe?

This sounds like a dirty leadpipe to me? If this is what you see when you look into the receiver that ring may be a ring of dirt. It is a description of what I saw when I looked down the receiver of that King 2b I talked about earier. You are right the leadpipe is a separate part but from that side I personally haven't been able to see that ring that mark the end of the leadpipe. If it is the end of the leadpipe then that ring should be about 1 -2 dm down the leadpipe. Where is the ring? Is it about the distance where the mouthpiece stops to go in?

If you are not used to clean a tromboneslide you can of course do harm to it. Everything that can missaligne the inner tubes is critical. To put some clothe in the tube and move it up and down with force can bend the tubes. Your outerslide can be like a "banana" if treated bad.
That said I always clean the slide, both the inners and outers parts as well as the leadpipe (insides and outsides) myself. There are tools for this and without those I would not do it.

A snake can do the job but there are also other kinds of brushes of different materials you can buy. if the dirt is very old and hard like concrete from years of years of buckled up cookies and sugar drinks then it might not be enough. In my case a pen knife was what was needed.

The first thing I should do if it was my horn is to investigate the inside of the first inner tube alone.

First (carefully) remove the outerslide, then point the upper slide towards a lamp and look from the receiver side down the tube. Be very careful when you do this, because the slide is very vulnerable when the outerslide is removed and any force or accidents that happen can then missalign the tubes and then the slide will be unplayable. The light from the lamp will shine through the tube and light up whatever is in there. There should nornally not be any visual marks on the inside. If you can see irregularities or cracks then there is something that might need to be checked by a professional repairman. The leadpipe can be broken. I had a Bach 6 model VII that had a broken keadpipe. It wasn't easy for me to just visually see wether it was dirt or cracks in that case. I compared with other horns. First I tried to clean the pipe, but the irregularities stayed and the horn still played very "weak" and fuzzy so in the end I decided it must be a cracked leadpipe error. To make the repair as cheap as possible I ordered a leadpipe of the right size myself and brought it to the tech. He then pulled the bad leadpipe from the horn. It came out in bits and pieces. It doesn't have to but this was really nothing to keep because he confirmed the leadpipe was trash. With the new leadpipe it now plays great.

I am a person who take risks with my trombones so I don't mind bad decisions that sometimes can cost me some dollars spent in vain. I can spend $ just to find out what works and what not works but I can see this is not the path a normal parent should follow. My advice is therefore to let a professional repairman that really knows trombones have a look at the horn. It is important to know a repairman can be a specialist on certain instruments and often it is NOT trombones. Some are good at woodwinds and some are good at violins. In this case you need to find and trust one that is good at fixing trombone slides. I can say there aren't many of those around here (Sweden). I have only one that I trust.

/Tom

[Bach5G]

It’s rarely a bad idea to have a good tech thoroughly clean out a horn from time to time.

[ericrich]

The Benge 170 seems to be a great horn, but every one I have ever tried with various mouthpieces has had that same issue with the shank not seating as deep in the receiver as other small bore horns. Hmm…?

[Posaunus]

It’s rarely a bad idea to have a good tech thoroughly clean out a horn from time to time.

[BGuttman]

If you want to snake the inside of the inner slide, you could do it with the outer slide still attached -- you just need to flush the outer slide when you are done.

If the receiver has a buildup of dirt and crud you probably should soak the slide prior to the snake brush.

Incidentally, you probably could use a bristle brush for tubing also. Or a nylon bristle brush for a 28 gauge shotgun or a 470 pistol. Note: bristle, not brass or steel. You want it to be pretty flexible.

[Diana6]

Okay, I think it might be best to have a tech assess the receiver/leadpipe situation and clean it the inners and outers for me.

post by ericrich » Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:56 am
The Benge 170 seems to be a great horn, but every one I have ever tried with various mouthpieces has had that same issue with the shank not seating as deep in the receiver as other small bore horns. Hmm…?

So could this be by design? or a manufacturing mistake?

I would still like to know if this is a 2 piece receiver/leadpipe, then can a mouthpiece that has an Olds shank taper be used in it.

In other words, if I have a mouthpiece made with an Olds shank taper. and it's inserted, it will go past the separation line (where the receiver meets the leadpipe). Does this cause issues?

[imsevimse]

In other words, if I have a mouthpiece made with an Olds shank taper. and it's inserted, it will go past the separation line (where the receiver meets the leadpipe). Does this cause issues?

This description makes me wonder what that ring really is made of? The leadpipe is a separate piece that starts just where the receiver starts and ends about 1-2 dm in the receiver. If the leadpipe is broke then bits of pieces may be gone.

/Tom

[BGuttman]

Note for Americans: 1 dm is 100 mm or just under 4 inches. 2 dm is 200 mm or just under 8 inches.

Diana: if the mouthpiece extends past the seam on a 2 part mouthpiece that usually doesn't cause problems. Still, there is probably a reason that the mouthpiece fits "funny". The Benge 170 is supposed to fit normal [small] shank mouthpieces.

[Diana6]

How much would it cost to get a new lead pipe installed? Does a new receiver come with it?

Maybe I should look for a new slide... 2B+ or a 3B. My son tried his 606 slide but he didn't't like it.

Also, this... when we bought this 170, we didn't notice something until it was in bright light. The bell has been through significant repair. It looks fine until light reveals that the lacquer is messed up and it has an orange peel effect. The seller never disclosed the repaired areas.Can this also affect the sound or playability of a trombone?

If not, maybe I can find a 3B slide for it?

[BGuttman]

A King slide will have the bell nut on the slide section. Does the Benge have the bell nut on the slide as well? Or is it on the bell section (where most others are)?

The repair to the bell should not affect playing unless the repair lacquer was improperly applied (too thick). You mention orange peel. This can be an indication of too much lacquer. I would consider removing the repair lacquer with lacquer thinner and polishing the bell. Finish up with a thin layer of paste car wax like Turtle Wax. If you really want lacquer on the bell consider having it reapplied by a good tech, who will polish up the area and apply with a sweeping motion -- you don't want to put it on too thick.

[Diana6]

The bell nut is on the slide on the 170.

The lacquer doesn't seem thick. In fact it's thin in areas. When you shine a flashlight on it close, you see sparkles and streaks. This is practically invisible in normal light.

I'm pretty handy, but I will not be tackling this bell.

[Doug Elliott]

You may be worrying about things that don't really matter very much. Maybe (maybe) a tech will know what's going on with the leadpipe. A new leadpipe may be a good idea, at least that will solve the receiver issue. Nearly all leadpipes have the receiver built in.

[Diana6]

You may be worrying about things that don't really matter very much. Maybe (maybe) a tech will know what's going on with the leadpipe. A new leadpipe may be a good idea, at least that will solve the receiver issue. Nearly all leadpipes have the receiver built in.

Thanks Doug...I agree. First step is to take it to a tech.

[Diana6]

Thanks for all the advice on this. Just to follow up, I had a good tech look at the Benge and here is what he found.

The leadpipe/receiver is one piece, no gap. The ring that you can see about 3/4" into the leadpipe was made from the end of standard mouthpieces when inserted. The leadpipe has some red rot and there is some some small corrosion spots here and there, but he says it shouldn't affect the sound and playability. He said that it's hard to say if a mouthpiece that inserts 1/4" further will help with how the instrument plays and sounds. He could change out the leadpipe, but doesn't know for sure if this would help that much either. Cleaning is probably a good idea, but it won't affect sound/playability. He also said maybe the right size mouthpiece could change things for the better.

I'm going to set up lessons for my son to evaluate him playing his Benge and Yamaha.

[imsevimse]

Is the tech a professional tromboneplayer and has he tested the horn? Does he know the difference in playability between a horn that has irregularities and dirt in the leadpipe compared to one that has a smooth and clean leadpipe?

My experience is these things isn't things you just assume. These things you need to try out and it can only be evaluated by a real fine player, and even then it is a gamble. You can never be sure.

I assumed the leadpipe on my Bach 6 model VII needed a leadpipe change because it played weak and fuzzy and I saw irregularities in the leadpipe that I could not clean away. If I had taken the horn to a tech that was a specialist on saxophones he might have said it probably did not matter much. It was a gamble. I did not know what to expect before the leadpipe change but after I knew I had made the right decision.

I have come to the conclusion that big dents in the bell often pass with no effect on how a horn plays and can be left out if not to remove them at pure cosmetic reasons. When it comes to dents it depends very much where they are located and if you are unlucky a dent can affect a single note so it plays bad or out of tune. An irregular bell can also affect the playability, but nothing is as crucial as the mouthpiece and leadpipe. This is experience I have from all the horns I've bought off ebay.

I have always tried a horn that I bought as is, without cleaning at arrival. After that I have cleaned and played it again. Finally I have removed dents. I have my own tools and it is not that difficult to remove dents My experience is the cleaning is what makes the greatest difference in this process. In some cases I think people don't like their instrument and sell instead of giving them a good clean.

If the ring you see in the leadpipe is a "mark" from many inserted mouthpieces then the ring is a sign that the leadpipe has been damaged. Your tech also said the leadpipe is corroded and has red rot and that a clean could help. Didn't he try to clean the leadpipe?

Based on all this it sounds like the leadpipe first need to be cleaned if it hasn't been done and then if the irregularities are still there then the trombone probably would be a better trombone with another leadpipe. No guarantee your son would notice the difference of course but a professional might do. Is it worth, that's the question? You don't know until you have switched that leadpipe.

My NY Bach 6 model VII wasn't a good horn when I bought it. I bought it unseen for about $550, but after the leadpipe switch it is a great horn. I have a couple of other horns that also play a bit fuzzy. Not that they are anywhere as bad as the Bach 6 model VII was, but this thread has given me the idea to evaluate them again. It could be they also need new leadpipes.

/Tom

[Diana6]

I forgot to follow-up on this thread after the issue was resolved. Maybe it could help someone who has this instrument or is interested in purchasing one.

My son's Benge 170 has a receiver (not a 2 piece) that must be the same size as many of the OLDS trombones. All of his mouthpieces inserted to about 3/4" or a little further. We ended up buying a mouthpiece from Doug Elliott with his OLDS shank that inserts exactly to 1"...
LT100 / C+ / D2

He plays it now with ease and he sounds great! What a difference. The lead pipe was not the problem.
The Benge 170 is indeed a really nice trombone and I am relieved that Doug's mouthpiece solved all the issues my son was having. It's more than just the smaller OLDS shank though. It just sounds sooo much better, jazzier, and doesn't ever break up like with all the other mp's he tried. I guess sometimes a mouthpiece can be THE solution. Thanks Doug.

[hyperbolica]

...We ended up buying a mouthpiece from Doug Elliott with his OLDS shank that inserts exactly to 1"...
LT100 / C+ / D2

I'll bet the shank has some sort of letter on it, like an S(mall), K(ing) or maybe O(lds). I've bought a couple of modified shanks to help with some non-standard leadpipes. That mouthpiece size is a great choice for jazz and pop playing. The DE mouthpieces are kind of pricey, but they always work, and can be tweaked if your needs change over time. Plus, there are a fair number of them on the used market, but supporting Doug with new purchases is always a good idea.

Several horns just use leadpipes that are slightly undersized (or oversized). It doesn't take much diameter change on that taper to account for 1/4" in insertion depth. King and Olds and some old Conns are known for variations. I had a King Duo Gravis that needed a special shank, Conn 24i, 79h, Olds Recording... Some older horns especially came with their own mouthpieces so no one noticed that they weren't exactly standard. Some old horns that have seen a lot of use actually get worn out and take mouthpieces too deep, but usually the leadpipe will give way before that gets too far.

The 170 is a great horn, I'm glad you resolved your issues with it. It is sometimes the case that instruments need adjustments or allowances, both with used and even new instruments. Sometimes the differences between a mouthpiece that inserts fully and one that just misses the mark can be subtle, and in some cases wouldn't really matter to a new player. But again, it might be that it makes it more difficult to play. I played a horn with a mouthpiece that inserted short for years, and after it was corrected, it was hardly noticeable. But, I've also had instruments where getting the correct insertion really made a noticeable difference.

Best of luck to your son with this.