Mouthpiece size?

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ctrianta
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Mouthpiece size?

Post by ctrianta »

Help everyone. This is my first time posting here!
I have a couple of questions:
1. What is the most popular size mouthpiece that bass trombonists use?
2. Any mouthpiece recommendations for a Bach 50AF3G? Bach 1 1/2, 2, 51/2…
3. Is a gold plated version of a mouthpiece more cosmetics to the overall instrument? Saw a 100th anniversary gold plated Bach mouthpiece in I believe a 5G?

Thanks,

Chris
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Burgerbob
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Burgerbob »

If you're new to the instrument, I'd recommend any 1 1/2G.

The 50AF3G will work well with larger mouthpieces as well, but don't worry about those until you've got a handle on the instrument and you feel like you may need to go up in size.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
OneTon
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by OneTon »

1. Bach 1 1/2G
2. Bach 1 1/2G
3. Developing an allergic reaction to silver or more probably nickel is rare but not unheard of. Some people like the feel of the contact on their mouth of the gold plating better than silver plating. I don’t know if any blind testing has been done. I am sure that I am about to find out. Gold is visually appealing to some people.

The times that I got stuck covering the lead book I did it on a Bach 1 1/2G. I have only used a 5G on a Bach LT42AG. There may be a contingent on this site that use a 5G on a bass trombone. There is a real mouthpiece expert on this site as well. I am not him.

In the interest of full disclosure, I liked Johnny Walker Red Label better than Johnny Walker Black Label. I have thus far avoided Johnny Walker Blue Label: It is better that I not know what I am missing.
Last edited by OneTon on Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Smith
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Vegasbound »

What does your trombone teacher suggest?

Don’t have a trombone teacher then get one


That said there is a reason the 1 1/2G has been around for so long, for some it is the only size they ever need/use (could be any of the variants of that size) for others it gave a solid foundation before working with a teacher or thir development had led elsewhere after years of practice

No one can really help without seeing/hearing you, and you putting in the hours/days/weeks/months etc of practice

I refer you again to my first line
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robcat2075
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by robcat2075 »

My understanding was that gold-plated was supposed to slide on the lips better. This implies you would want to slide at all.

Yamaha:
A gold-plated finish will make a mouthpiece considerably more expensive, but there are some benefits that make this more than just a flashy luxury. For many players, a gold-plated rim and cup feel smoother and more slippery on the lips, with less of a grip on your skin than silver. This can actually help improve lip flexibility and control, and may be more comfortable if you play long sessions. Gold is also less reactive than silver, so it keeps its natural shine much longer without tarnishing. In addition, anyone that finds their skin breaking out in a rash with a standard silver-plated mouthpiece may find that gold plating alleviates that kind of allergic response (although if you think you’re having an allergic reaction it’s always best to check with your doctor!)

One thing that a gold-plated finish probably WON’T do is change your sound. It’s a common misconception that gold plating makes a mouthpiece sound darker or gives the player a warmer tone than silver, but the reality is that the very thin layer of gold has such a small impact on sound that for most players it’s essentially not an issue. The gold may FEEL more comfortable, and it’s a very impressive look to be sure, but if there’s a difference in sound from a silver mouthpiece, chances are it’s because some other characteristic has changed.

Note the use of the suggestive-but-non-committal "may" in many of the claims.

I've never had a gold-plated mouthpiece so i can't say if any of it is true and as a player I haven't had "long sessions" since college when concert band and jazz band were booked back-to-back.
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by sirisobhakya »

1. Please don’t care what others use. Mouthpiece choice is very personal. But, yes, Bach 1 1/2 G is the most common, middle-sized, and the easiest to find both new and second-hand.

2. As others have said and I sId above, 1 1/2 G is a good starting point.

3. I have 2 mouthpieces of a same model, one silver-plated and one with gold-plated rim. The gold is more slippery, but only at the start or after wiping the rims. Both make the same sound.
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by BGuttman »

I've had identical Wick mouthpieces in gold and silver. They play identically. The gold one seems to "warm up" faster and slides on the lips somewhat. I can live with either, although I like the look of the gold.

As to size, a starting mouthpiece for a bass trombone is a Bach 1 1/2 G or 2G (or equivalent). Some say the Wick 2NAL works well. Some like Schilke or Yamaha 58. I've found that anything 4G or smaller won't work as a bass mouthpiece. I used a 4G to make my bass (King 7B) sound more like a tenor.

Some embouchures work well with the 2G or 1.5G; others need bigger. You can't predict in advance. Your route to the best mouthpiece will be shortened considerably if you have the help of a good teacher.
Bruce Guttman
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robcat2075
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by robcat2075 »

All this "ask your teacher" is well-meaning but un-useful as guidance.

Ask your teacher... but unless you have one who is some hard-charging embouchure expert with years of actual success in prescribing mouthpieces all you are going to get is the same middle-of-road "most people use..." kind of statements you are already getting.

What are the chances you have one of those experts? They are not common.

Of the nine teachers I had weekly trombone lessons with in my life... who ranged from bored public school band directors to A-list symphony players... NONE had any specific comments or advice on mouthpieces, even after I walked in with the most unusual bass trombone mouthpiece in the catalog.

Actually I recall one teacher, a bored public school band director, did have a specific suggestion. I was still a tenor player then and he said I should get a Bach 6 1/2 AL "for a bigger sound", a very safe middle-of-the-road, suggestion.

In retrospect that was an incorrect diagnosis. The problem with my sound was not the mouthpiece but the "oral cavity" stuff. I was tonguing with "tu" instead of "tah".

I've never played a Bach 1½G and no one ever suggested i switch to one. But it seems to persist as the go-to recommendation for new bass trombone players and must be appropriate for bass trombone tasks.

Once you have something appropriate, the exact nuance of mouthpiece is not nearly as important as having the correct concept of the bass trombone sound in mind and are striving toward that with every note. That is the hard work.
>>Robert Holmén<<

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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by OneTon »

All of robcat2075’s points are well taken. The 1 1/2G and 6 1/2AL are “go to” mouthpieces for beginners. Some professional players stay on them and some players move on. The 6 1/2AL was never kind to me. My teacher put me on a Schilke 47 which I played on for ~30 years. It is another “go to” mouthpiece as is most probably the Bach 11C for jazz. Some players may get to a Bach 11C early on. There may be some genuine angst over this characterization. A player has to be able to play a few scales and maybe a high Bb before they can benefit from a mouthpiece expert. These mouthpieces are a place to start in the absence of dedicated instruction or expert fitting.
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Kingfan
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Kingfan »

I play a 1.5 G on my bass, 5G on my large bore tenor, but a Doug Elliott piece similar to a Bach 5 on my small bores including a King 2B. Mouthpiece selection is a three legged stool - the horn, the mouthpiece, and the player. What mouthpiece works for one person on a particular horn may not work for another person on the same horn.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by BigBadandBass »

1. Bach 1.5G, Schilke 50/60, GB 1, Laskey 85MD/90D, “X” Doug Elliot setup. If you ask any bass trombonist what the most popular piece is, they’ll all say different things, find something that’s cheap and doesn’t feel too big. Generally speaking, hanging around the 1.5-1.25 size is okay. Especially if you don’t have the air setup
2. Whatever you can get your hands on that says “bass trombone” on the box and isn’t too big. I started on a Doug Yeo and that toilet didn’t really mess me up, I just needed to work on other things. Smaller for beginners is generally better though, I am not a role model
3. Gold is a different feel. To some there’s some slip, to others there’s not, generally speaking, if you’re looking at gold vs silver and you’re just starting out that’s not the point, you don’t need the shiniest piece, you need the most functional piece for you. I use gold because it’s easier to clean my lip goop off, but that’s my reason

Also, unless it’s been detrimental to my playing (playing a yeo when I was 17 and just picked up the bass a month ago) I have never been told to switch mouthpieces by a teacher. The shifts were always me and a dialogue between my teacher on the feel and sound. It’s always me wondering and them being objective. If you want to ask a teacher, email Doug Elliot
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by LIBrassCo »

Eveyone is different for mouthpieces. On bass I started on a schilke 60, and fairly quickly (6 months?) went to a greg black 1g. Nowadays I'm on one of my mouthpieces, wide rim 29.5mm. Dont believe all the hype over starting on a 1.5g. Just because so many did doesn't mean it was the right choice, simply the most common choice.
Check out our new bass trombone doubling mouthpieces: https://www.librassco.com/broadway-bass
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by blast »

LIBrassCo wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:51 am Eveyone is different for mouthpieces. On bass I started on a schilke 60, and fairly quickly (6 months?) went to a greg black 1g. Nowadays I'm on one of my mouthpieces, wide rim 29.5mm. Dont believe all the hype over starting on a 1.5g. Just because so many did doesn't mean it was the right choice, simply the most common choice.
On the other hand, don't believe all the hype about big mouthpieces.
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by WGWTR180 »

blast wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:14 pm
LIBrassCo wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:51 am Eveyone is different for mouthpieces. On bass I started on a schilke 60, and fairly quickly (6 months?) went to a greg black 1g. Nowadays I'm on one of my mouthpieces, wide rim 29.5mm. Dont believe all the hype over starting on a 1.5g. Just because so many did doesn't mean it was the right choice, simply the most common choice.
On the other hand, don't believe all the hype about big mouthpieces.
Chris
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Langheck
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Langheck »

On the other other hand, I had the opposite experience most people probably have with bass mouthpieces. I started on a Schilke 58, which is 1-1/2G sized and within two weeks of I knew that something wasn't quite right. I moved to a Laskey 93D and most of the problems I has having with the mouthpiece went away, the 58 just happened to be too small for me, I was working way too hard to make it work, and when I switched my range increased in both directions and I could focus better on making a good sound. That said your mileage may vary, and starting on something smaller like a 1-1/2G is probably for the best.
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by OneTon »

Legendary mouthpieces get to be legendary for a reason. That does imply or guarantee universality.

A martial arts instructor was teaching a specific choke hold to a class. No one in the class nor the instructor could choke me using it. The instructor then applied an alternate choke hold on me that had me gasping as if I had been gassed.

Humans are not all made the same. If something doesn’t work I try something else . . . after checking my embouchure, breath support, and attack, first.
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ctrianta
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by ctrianta »

Wow! I can’t believe how many professional and thorough answers I received! Thanks for all your help. Starting with a Bach 1 1/2g (what came with it) and then will go from there. Next thing to explore is whether I try a different brand after working with the Bach just to see what differences I may notice. But, will focus on self mechanics first!
Thanks again everyone! Much appreciated!
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Matt K
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Matt K »

I tend to have a Schilke 59 and Bach 1.5 on hand if I have a bass trombone student. Much of the time, one of them is clearly and obviously better from the start. Many of the existing designs out there are also variations on those two.

Then there's the slightly less orthodox path that I took... I played one of Doug's Euphonium pieces that had the same rim size as my tenor (EUPH104N/K/K8) which is 1.04" rim but with a deep cup. Then, when I was more comfortable with bass, I tried several sizes until I settled on the rim that gave me the best sound, which in my case was an LB114 rim (roughly a Schilke 60 rim size). Although I still have the Euph piece and will use it for things like swing dance gigs where I'm basically a 4th tenor anyway.
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Savio
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Re: Mouthpiece size?

Post by Savio »

I mostly start them on 1 1/2g. I have one student that started on 1 1/2g, he is 18 now and have developed a fantastic sound. One day I took with me my bigger mouthpieces for him to try. A laskey 85md and a 1 1/4g. He refused to try them! Strange?

Gold mouthpieces looks nice and feels good. But doesn't necessarily sound better. More expensive of course.

Mouthpieces are personal, get the one that sounds best. But in the beginning my experience is to settle on one that develop you as a player.

Leif
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