The second mouthpiece phenomenon

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robcat2075
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The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by robcat2075 »

I have three mouthpieces.

I had only used a Schilke 60 for 25+ years, then added a Doug Yeo and Laskey 93D in the last ten years, looking to see if there might be something better for me than the Schilke.

So which one is best? That's the weird part.

After much swapping and testing and comparing, the only consistent observation i can make is that if i warm up on one, then switch, the second one will immediately sound and feel better.

It doesn't matter which of the three was first and second, it doesn't matter if I even noticed which was on my horn when I picked it up, when i put the second one on, suddenly my lips feel like they are doing what they are supposed to do.

Why didn't the first one work like that?

This can't possibly be a real thing, it has to be my imagination, and yet it seems like it is real.

It is only after several years of repeatedly being surprised by this every time I did it that i have come to expect it, so it can't be entirely a placebo effect.
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn

See my Spacepod movie
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BGuttman
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by BGuttman »

I wonder if it's because the second mouthpiece is cooler and that affects the embouchure. Try warming up on a mouthpiece, then dunking it in some ice water for a few minutes before starting your regular practice.
Bruce Guttman
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WGWTR180
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by WGWTR180 »

It's real. When you are searching a mouthpiece can feel great for awhile. Then you continue to play it and one of 2 things happens. 1. You end up just not liking it for a variety of reasons. 2. Any problems you are having with your regular mouthpiece "disappear" for a short time on the new piece but then they "reappear.
" It's usually #2 meaning it's usually the player.
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ithinknot
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by ithinknot »

Both of the above. Also, you've just made a dent in your face in a very particular spot - the substitute mpc doesn't fit in exactly the same divot, and probably provides a sort of temporary micro-massage of the squishy bits.

Same reason it's usually easier to go from large to small (though obviously serious doublers have to learn to quickly accommodate any direction of change).

(On a barely related note - if I drive a Caterham 7, getting back into my normal car feels like steering a duvet. Back-to-back, that makes sense. What's really weird is that the impression persists for several days afterwards.)
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Doug Elliott
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by Doug Elliott »

I see that phenomenon in players who are constantly looking for "the right mouthpiece" among several in the same size range. Usually it's 11C size, but also 5G size, or 1-1/2G. In my opinion it's because whatever size is a bad match to the player, but they think that's the size they should be using.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Kingfan
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by Kingfan »

ithinknot wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:28 am (On a barely related note - if I drive a Caterham 7, getting back into my normal car feels like steering a duvet. Back-to-back, that makes sense. What's really weird is that the impression persists for several days afterwards.)
You have a Caterham 7? Sweet!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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BigBadandBass
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by BigBadandBass »

When looking for a mouthpiece to use this exactly what I felt and was confused by it too. The conclusion that I came to was that when I warm up with one mouthpiece I feel what exactly I do not like about it and what I like. But when I immediately change to another I have yet to notice any obvious issues with it. It's kinda like a honeymoon period with the second and in a long term relationship with the first
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Nobbi
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by Nobbi »

I just face the same situation ... I got to test two new MP's 3 days ago:
- Klier Exclusive 6B (25,75mm, medium deep, 6,8mm bore)
- Klier Exclusive 7D (25,5mm, shallow, 6,0mm bore)
After 3 days excessive playing in comparison with my Bachs 6 1/2 A/AL/AM and 15C ... with every minute I drift further away from Bach.
The response of the Klier is way better, right on the spot, the sound is fantastic and my mouth feels made for them. The Bachs feel like kind of a cage ....

Second mouthpiece phenomenon or real?
I can keep them up to 3 weeks ... and I will use that time. Special thanks to Andre for the hint with Klier MP's. :good:
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Slidennis
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by Slidennis »

I quite feel the same as most of the replies above, but what I often get with a real good mpc at first play, is that I get tired on it faster, and that the first wonders can disappear very quickly...

I discovered later than that phenomenon is often due to the fact that those pieces are at first so easy to play that I overdrive them, not being careful enough, and that a more middle of the road mpc, the one that is the best COMPROMISE for everything is most of the time much more suitable to play on a daily basis than the wonderful one at first try...
Denis the musician wannabe trying to depart from gear geeking... :shuffle:
Posaunerd
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by Posaunerd »

Doug Elliott wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:10 am I see that phenomenon in players who are constantly looking for "the right mouthpiece" among several in the same size range. Usually it's 11C size, but also 5G size, or 1-1/2G. In my opinion it's because whatever size is a bad match to the player, but they think that's the size they should be using.
:?
I wonder if this is my problem? Currently rotating between 3 MPs & can’t figure out which one I prefer or if I should keep looking...
henryTbone
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by henryTbone »

robcat2075 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:55 pm I have three mouthpieces.

I had only used a Schilke 60 for 25+ years, then added a Doug Yeo and Laskey 93D in the last ten years, looking to see if there might be something better for me than the Schilke.

So which one is best? That's the weird part.

After much swapping and testing and comparing, the only consistent observation i can make is that if i warm up on one, then switch, the second one will immediately sound and feel better.

It doesn't matter which of the three was first and second, it doesn't matter if I even noticed which was on my horn when I picked it up, when i put the second one on, suddenly my lips feel like they are doing what they are supposed to do.

Why didn't the first one work like that?

This can't possibly be a real thing, it has to be my imagination, and yet it seems like it is real.

It is only after several years of repeatedly being surprised by this every time I did it that i have come to expect it, so it can't be entirely a placebo effect.
This phenomenon has kept me busy for quite some time as well. I am playing (pre covid) lead in a Big Band with a female singer. We do a lot of vocal charts there. No issue here. I am doing that for a loooong time already.
In two other Big Bands I am playing Bass Bone. I started that about 10 years ago and slowly grew into it. One Band is concentrating on traditional Swing Charts plus popular male singer charts like the Sinatra stuff. The other one is focussed on Gordon Goodwin arragements and the like.
With my Bass Bone i had this second MP phenomenon for a long time. My way out of it was to focus on what i want to achieve with my playing.
Since the requirements found in my two very different bass bone books where extremely different i started to pick out 4 very typical charts. The first one was a swing tune that required a very high swinging line with legato and some accents in the range above the staff up to A. The second was a section solo with the bass on the bottom all within the staff lines. Third came a Swing Song with a Bass Trombone Line from start to the end(Love me or leave me) and the last one was a more modern Chart with lots of loud and low playing.
Having this Framework at hand I ran every new and fantastic MP through the 4 charts.
Pretty soon it was very clear that the wonderful MP down low woulsd not take me anywhere in the up and hich charts.
Since my Goal was to find ONE MP to cover all my charts I did lots of testig with all the 4 charts.
Pretty soon i could sort out 3 of my nine (!) Bass bone MP because they did not work down low, and another 3 because they would not work up there.
The remaining 3 MP still showed the second mouthpiece phenomenon. But then i could narrow it down by focussing on my goal that i would like to achieve. So I picked my prioritiy (a bass bone has to be able to play low and loud when required) and cover everything else with some occacional compromize.
So I made my pick and started to practice on this piece exclusivly. Every other week i got the itches and i pulled out one of the dismissed pieces.....and yeah. Right away it felt better.
But then i put it through the 4 charts routine and.....came back to my current MP instantly.
There are always some aspects an other MP can do better. But does that really fit your requirements?
This is just my story with this phenomenon.

Keep practicing and stay healthy.
Some time soon we will be playing our beloved music again (in public).

Greetings
Heinrich
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robcat2075
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Re: The second mouthpiece phenomenon

Post by robcat2075 »

Thank you all for your feedbacks.

I'm only re-finding this thread today!
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn

See my Spacepod movie
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