TromboneChat

Hi all,

Since the 7-11 mouthpiece realm is quite large and complex, i'm wondering if we can make a list of mouthpieces that fit this size category.

Here is my contribution:

Hammond: FA2
Yamaha: 46B
marcinkiewicz: 11c

I remember reading that while the 11C and 7C are very close in size, they are otherwise quite different. I can't remember what exactly those differences are. "officially" the 7C is a 24.75mm size, while the 11C is a 24.70mm size.

Here is my contribution:

Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 7C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach Artisan 7C
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach 11C (pick a year/day/worker)
Bach Artisan 11C

Those are all different mouthpieces just from Bach, so here are some from other makers:

Conn 7C
Conn 11C
Griego 7
Griego 11

There are also variants on the Marcinkiewicz 11c I think? A Charlie Loper model and Lloyd Ullyate model and a couple of others.

- Ferguson 11c is based on the Minick design
- BrassArk BobReeves 11c based on a NY Bach
- Rath S11 MN (Mark Nightingale)
- AR Resonance make a 24.8mm and 25.1mm top which is similar to 11c/6.75c
- Greg Black makes pieces in these sizes
- Schilke 47b and the Griego Steve Weist model could probably fit in this category too.

It’s been said that the Bach 11c is more like a small 6.5AL size, and the 7c more like a big 12c in terms of cup and throat and how the play and feel on the chops. So yes, even though an 11c and 7c are close in specs, they play very differently!

Plus the 9, and 8....and no-letter 11 and 7. And the 6.75C. And 8.5BW. And the ....

As I've written in another topic Greg Black now makes a 9C which is bang in the middle of the 7C and 11C.

All mouthpiece makers produce pieces in these sizes, and there are the signature models such as

Lloyd Ulyate, Charlie Loper, Jiggs, Al Kay, Buddy Morrow ( not the modern re-issue)

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pmIt’s been said that the Bach 11c is more like a small 6.5AL size, and the 7c more like a big 12c in terms of cup and throat and how the play and feel on the chops. So yes, even though an 11c and 7c are close in specs, they play very differently!

Yes, THIS is what I was looking for. I don't know where the 6 3/4C fits into that, because I have and really like one of those. this also means that the 11C and 12C are quite different, while many people assume they are very close in design. The numbering system between the 7C and 12C seems almost arbitrary.

Most 6 3/4cs are more like 11cs than 7cs.

Nothing is ever "hard and fast" with Bach, though. I have a MV7c that I picked up on here that is bigger in diameter than many 6 3/4s I've played, but still more "12c" like in sound, which I dig (two words: John Allred). I also just picked up Minick that is supposedly based on Lloyd Ulyate's 12c which plays like the ultimate 11c. Allegedly the piece I got is also what the Ferguson 11c was based on, but the two play nothing alike (my opinion only).

I hypothesize that Bach had 2 cutters, and depending on how deep the cutter went in, the diameter also increased (cutters are basically parabolic cones) in turn. So a 7c is really just a 12c that had the cutter put further in. A 6 3/4 is an 11c that had the cutter pushed further in. Etc. I could be wrong, but good theories make things line up temporarily, and I like the way this lines up.

FWIW, every MV or NY 11c or 7c I've ever played are bigger in diameter than later periods. Some copies have this feature as well, like the Brassark 11c, or Kanstul CL45, which is based (I think) on Charlie Loper's 11c.

Some of my favorite (widely-available) mouthpieces in this size are:

The Marcinkiewicz Jiggs, Marcinkiewicz 12 (no "c"), Warburton 11 (darker, but perhaps one of the easiest mouthpieces to play out there), Reeves/Brassark 11c, AR Alan Kaplan, or my personal favorite: a really good Bach 7c or 11c. Good luck finding one, because it really is luck.

I also love Doug's mouthpieces and Warburton two-piece pieces, but the throats are larger.

Not a bad place to sort through mouthpieces of various sizes. Now, are the measurements worth the paper they're printed on? YMMV.

http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/trom ... hank=Tenor

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:32 pm Now, are the measurements worth the paper they're printed on? YMMV.

In my experience, these measurements are far from accurate. Especially for Bach, inconsistent from sample to sample; year to year. And different manufacturers have different methods of measuring – especially Cup I.D. Marcinkiewicz is a notable outlier, with an apparently different way of specifying Cup I.D.

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:32 pm Not a bad place to sort through mouthpieces of various sizes. Now, are the measurements worth the paper they're printed on? YMMV.

http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/trom ... hank=Tenor

Just made a search for mp's in the 25.25 width, and was expecting to see my Josef Klier 8's show up, but they're listed as being 25.50 here..

Like I mentioned, caveat emptor. I mean, even if the specs are directly from the maker, they're all over the place.

Brian, the OP, listed the Hammond FA2 as in this category, for example. The Hammond website says the FA2 has a rim the size of a Bach 4, so like a 1.02" rim. That ain't no Bach 7-11 size mpc., haha!

Here's pieces I've measured that might be though,

Marcinkiewicz 12: .972"/ 24.7mm
Marcinkiewicz ET7 D-S: same as above, but with a smaller throat & shallower cup
Olds 1 & 1*: .972"/24.7mm
Bach Mount Vernon 11C: mine is .978, so on the big side.
Faxx 12C (copied from an MV 12C): .970", so almost there.

Pre59 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:28 amJust made a search for mp's in the 25.25 width, and was expecting to see my Josef Klier 8's show up, but they're listed as being 25.50 here..

The info on Dave Werden's site is based on published specs, which may have changed over time. And again, they can vary. Everything can vary.

At least these days we see makers who have decoupled cup size and rim diameter, so you can get a 4 size mouthpiece that plays/sounds like a 6 1/2. For the classic Bach pieces, everything goes up as the rim size goes up.

Has anyone tried the Griego 7? I play Bach 7s for my small bore and am wondering how close the Griego is?

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:03 am Like I mentioned, caveat emptor. I mean, even if the specs are directly from the maker, they're all over the place.

Brian, the OP, listed the Hammond FA2 as in this category, for example. The Hammond website says the FA2 has a rim the size of a Bach 4, so like a 1.02" rim. That ain't no Bach 7-11 size mpc., haha!

Here's pieces I've measured that might be though,

Marcinkiewicz 12: .972"/ 24.7mm
Marcinkiewicz ET7 D-S: same as above, but with a smaller throat & shallower cup
Olds 1 & 1*: .972"/24.7mm
Bach Mount Vernon 11C: mine is .978, so on the big side.
Faxx 12C (copied from an MV 12C): .970", so almost there.

Yes, the FA2 has a large rim size, but the cup is a small V-shape and the throat is tiny. Overall i'd compare this to a 6/34 or a larger 7c.

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm
It’s been said that the Bach 11c is more like a small 6.5AL size, and the 7c more like a big 12c in terms of cup and throat and how the play and feel on the chops. So yes, even though an 11c and 7c are close in specs, they play very differently!

Sam Burtis wrote something to this effect in the old Trombone Forum. Has something to do with the slope of the shoulders and inner walls. I don't remember exactly how he put it, but it's like the 6.5 "family" includes the 11C, and the 7C "family" includes the 12C.

Driswood wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:11 am

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm
It’s been said that the Bach 11c is more like a small 6.5AL size, and the 7c more like a big 12c in terms of cup and throat and how the play and feel on the chops. So yes, even though an 11c and 7c are close in specs, they play very differently!

Sam Burtis wrote something to this effect in the old Trombone Forum. Has something to do with the slope of the shoulders and inner walls. I don't remember exactly how he put it, but it's like the 6.5 "family" includes the 11C, and the 7C "family" includes the 12C.

Yes it was Sam that said something along the lines of Bach only really designing 2 mouthpieces, the 6.5AL and the 12c, and everything else was just a variation on these designs. So the 7c is in the 12c family and the 11c is in the 6.5AL family. I have Mount Vernon versions of a 6.5a and 11c that just play like a big and small version of each other so I think it’s spot on!

Actually, Sam Burtis quotes Urbie Green saying so.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... bie#p20577

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 am

Driswood wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:11 am

Sam Burtis wrote something to this effect in the old Trombone Forum. Has something to do with the slope of the shoulders and inner walls. I don't remember exactly how he put it, but it's like the 6.5 "family" includes the 11C, and the 7C "family" includes the 12C.

Yes it was Sam that said something along the lines of Bach only really designing 2 mouthpieces, the 6.5AL and the 12c, and everything else was just a variation on these designs. So the 7c is in the 12c family and the 11c is in the 6.5AL family. I have Mount Vernon versions of a 6.5a and 11c that just play like a big and small version of each other so I think it’s spot on!

If so, where does the 6 3/4C fall into?

I have a 11C (early 2000's) and a 6 3/4C (late 2010's) play opposite sound-wise. My 11C produces a warmer, richer, darker sound than my 6 3/4C which has way so bright sound like smaller than 11C.
If I am right, the cup and throat sizes are the same for these two pieces but play so different.
If I would have a chance I would want to duplicate the 11C rim as 25.00mm or the 6 3/4C rim to put on the 11C cup to try out to see the result. Anybody did this before and wanna share the experience?

Just want to mention that whoever is interested may find the 3 small shank mouthpieces interesting that we are selling at https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Contact me if you have any questions!

AEK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:38 pm

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 am

Yes it was Sam that said something along the lines of Bach only really designing 2 mouthpieces, the 6.5AL and the 12c, and everything else was just a variation on these designs. So the 7c is in the 12c family and the 11c is in the 6.5AL family. I have Mount Vernon versions of a 6.5a and 11c that just play like a big and small version of each other so I think it’s spot on!

If so, where does the 6 3/4C fall into?

I have a 11C (early 2000's) and a 6 3/4C (late 2010's) play opposite sound-wise. My 11C produces a warmer, richer, darker sound than my 6 3/4C which has way so bright sound like smaller than 11C.
If I am right, the cup and throat sizes are the same for these two pieces but play so different.
If I would have a chance I would want to duplicate the 11C rim as 25.00mm or the 6 3/4C rim to put on the 11C cup to try out to see the result. Anybody did this before and wanna share the experience?

Have you tried a Bob Reeves/Brassark 11c? This has all the best sound qualities of a killer 11c with a fairly wide rim diameter. I’d say the rim is definitely in the 6 3/4 ballpark.

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:47 pm

AEK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:38 pm

If so, where does the 6 3/4C fall into?

I have a 11C (early 2000's) and a 6 3/4C (late 2010's) play opposite sound-wise. My 11C produces a warmer, richer, darker sound than my 6 3/4C which has way so bright sound like smaller than 11C.
If I am right, the cup and throat sizes are the same for these two pieces but play so different.
If I would have a chance I would want to duplicate the 11C rim as 25.00mm or the 6 3/4C rim to put on the 11C cup to try out to see the result. Anybody did this before and wanna share the experience?

Have you tried a Bob Reeves/Brassark 11c? This has all the best sound qualities of a killer 11c with a fairly wide rim diameter. I’d say the rim is definitely in the 6 3/4 ballpark.

The Brassark recommendation is a good one. I'd also suggest looking at older (specifically "Corp ." with the period far from the "p" era) 6 3/4cs. The newer (than 1990) ones don't do it for me.

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:47 pm

AEK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:38 pm

If so, where does the 6 3/4C fall into?

I have a 11C (early 2000's) and a 6 3/4C (late 2010's) play opposite sound-wise. My 11C produces a warmer, richer, darker sound than my 6 3/4C which has way so bright sound like smaller than 11C.
If I am right, the cup and throat sizes are the same for these two pieces but play so different.
If I would have a chance I would want to duplicate the 11C rim as 25.00mm or the 6 3/4C rim to put on the 11C cup to try out to see the result. Anybody did this before and wanna share the experience?

Have you tried a Bob Reeves/Brassark 11c? This has all the best sound qualities of a killer 11c with a fairly wide rim diameter. I’d say the rim is definitely in the 6 3/4 ballpark.

Thanks for the recommendation but I think it will be so difficult for me to find one to try around where I live. Cheers.

AEK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:38 pm

Rusty wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:46 am

Yes it was Sam that said something along the lines of Bach only really designing 2 mouthpieces, the 6.5AL and the 12c, and everything else was just a variation on these designs. So the 7c is in the 12c family and the 11c is in the 6.5AL family. I have Mount Vernon versions of a 6.5a and 11c that just play like a big and small version of each other so I think it’s spot on!

If so, where does the 6 3/4C fall into?

I have the same experiense with the 12C and 7C beeing related and the 11C and 6 1/2 AL beeing related. When my first mouthpiece was a 12C I was also comfortable on a 7C. Since many years I have played he 6 3/4C and find that to be in the family of 11C and 6 1/2 AL. For me it is the contour of the rim and consequently the grip on the lip that makes them close to eachother. A 12C and 7C gives a different feel on the lip. Now when I play 11C-ish mouthpieces I'm not as comfortable with the 12C and 7C anymore, but the whole series of Hammond work and the signature series of Marcinkiewicz.

/Tom

Not that it's of world-shaking import, but I'd like some clarification about the Bach small-shank trombone mouthpieces and their history.

1. First, didn't the "Non-C" cups (e.g., 12, 11, 7, etc.) historically precede the "C" cups (12C, 11C, 7C, ...)?

2. Is it true that the C cups are a bit shallower than the non-C cups, giving a more "brilliant" sound and facilitating high range - but that the rims are (roughly - within Bach's rather wide tolerance range) identical to their non-C sibling? [So an 11C has the same rim I.D. and shape as an 11.]

3. I find it strange that about the only Bach mouthpieces discussed on this forum (probably representing what trombonists play) are the C version (12C, 11C, 7C). Why? [I tend to prefer 11 to 11C and 7 to 7C.]

4. I see these mouthpieces as being grouped by some into two "families" - I guess based somehow on cup (and rim?) shape:
• 12C / 7C
• 11C / 6½AL / 6¾C [I presume that the 6 (I've never seen one) and 6½A are also in the 11C family?]

5. I've recently tried a Bach 9 mouthpiece. It plays pretty nicely (though it's considerably bigger than Bach's Cup I.D. spec.). Which family does the Bach 9 occupy?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

On live work, I've never been able to use a non-c Bach cup and get the volume AND sound I require without overblowing them and eventually fatiguing. It always ends in anger.

Conceivably the non-c cups predated the c cups but there are plenty of early New York c cups out there so who knows.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:23 am Not that it's of world-shaking import, but I'd like some clarification about the Bach small-shank trombone mouthpieces and their history.

1. First, didn't the "Non-C" cups (e.g., 12, 11, 7, etc.) historically precede the "C" cups (12C, 11C, 7C, ...)?

2. Is it true that the C cups are a bit shallower than the non-C cups, giving a more "brilliant" sound and facilitating high range - but that the rims are (roughly - within Bach's rather wide tolerance range) identical to their non-C sibling? [So an 11C has the same rim I.D. and shape as an 11.]

3. I find it strange that about the only Bach mouthpieces discussed on this forum (probably representing what trombonists play) are the C version (12C, 11C, 7C). Why? [I tend to prefer 11 to 11C and 7 to 7C.]

4. I see these mouthpieces as being grouped by some into two "families" - I guess based somehow on cup (and rim?) shape:
• 12C / 7C
• 11C / 6½AL / 6¾C [I presume that the 6 (I've never seen one) and 6½A are also in the 11C family?]

5. I've recently tried a Bach 9 mouthpiece. It plays pretty nicely (though it's considerably bigger than Bach's Cup I.D. spec.). Which family does the Bach 9 occupy?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

I heard that non-C cups were more of a baritone mpc and C cups were more trombone orientated.

And from what i have read, heard and experienced personally about Bach 9s is that it's a deeper 11/11c. Same (or similar taking in account inconsistencies) width and rim as 11s, just deeper.

Has anyone tried the Griego 7? And if so, is it similar to a Bach 7 or 7c?

More similar to a 7 than 7c in terms of sound, a bit more nimble with less body.

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:35 pm More similar to a 7 than 7c in terms of sound, a bit more nimble with less body.

Nice. Now i have to find one to try:(

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:22 pm

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:35 pm More similar to a 7 than 7c in terms of sound, a bit more nimble with less body.

Nice. Now i have to find one [Griego 7} to try:(

You might also want to investigate:

Marcinkiewicz ET4 (Lloyd Ulyate): Copy of Lloyd's (opened-throat) Bach 7C !
..... This is my favorite mouthpiece in this size range.

Curry 7C (Curry's C cups are based on an old [Bach] New York design.)

The LU is a good piece. The Jiggs is also excellent at a bit smaller. The Loper is a fan favorite but I never got on with it. All of those signature model Marcinciewicz pieces are excellent. I also really like the 12.

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:33 am The LU is a good piece. The Jiggs is also excellent at a bit smaller. The Loper is a fan favorite but I never got on with it. All of those signature model Marcinciewicz pieces are excellent. I also really like the 12.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:42 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:22 pm

Nice. Now i have to find one [Griego 7} to try:(

You might also want to investigate:

Marcinkiewicz ET4 (Lloyd Ulyate): Copy of Lloyd's (opened-throat) Bach 7C !
..... This is my favorite mouthpiece in this size range.

Curry 7C (Curry's C cups are based on an old [Bach] New York design.)

The marcinkiewicz mpcs are good. I like their tuba mpcs. Their trombone mpcs, for me, need more mass.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:42 pm

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:33 am The LU is a good piece. The Jiggs is also excellent at a bit smaller. The Loper is a fan favorite but I never got on with it. All of those signature model Marcinciewicz pieces are excellent. I also really like the 12.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:42 pm
You might also want to investigate:
Marcinkiewicz ET4 (Lloyd Ulyate): Copy of Lloyd's (opened-throat) Bach 7C !

The Marcinkiewicz mpcs are good. I like their tuba mpcs. Their trombone mpcs, for me, need more mass.

I don't miss the extra mass on the Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces. Some of them play very nicely for me. (Or I play very nicely with them?) The ET4 "Lloyd Ulyate" is my favorite. The ET3 "Charlie Loper" (modeled after a Bach Mt Vernon 11C) is also nice, but I like the larger throat of the ET4. I prefer these to their Bach "equivalents."

When I want something larger, the Marcinkiewicz 9B ("B.Stroup") has worked well for me. The large-shank Marcinkiewicz "Geo Roberts" model is my favorite bass trombone piece for Big Band work. The Marcinkiewicz ET1 (Peebles Model) works well in a large-bore tenor, though it isn't my favorite .

I guess I must be a Marcinkiewicz fan-boy. Joe's on to something that works for me.

FWIW, the Jiggs has a bit more mass around the rim. It's unique in that way!

Marcinkiewicz, Brass Ark (Bob Reeves), and Bach are the three manufacturers that I always come back to. I agree that the Marcinkiewicz design has something special in there. "They just work".

How does the sound and feel of the ET3 "Charlie Loper" compare to a Bach 11C ?

AEK wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:37 am How does the sound and feel of the ET3 "Charlie Loper" compare to a Bach 11C ?

Of course this depends on you and even more (given the variations in Bach mouthpieces) on which 11C you compare to. I have one of each. And - no surprise - they play and sound quite similar. To my ear, from behind the bell, the Marc ET3 sounds very slightly fuller than the 11C, in spite of its lower mass, and may be a bit better in the high range (though this could be my imagination). Though the rims appear similar, the ET3 seems a wee bit more comfortable on my lips. But the real differences, if any, are rather subtle, and are in any case a matter of individual preference.

I'm still happy with my small collection of Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces (5 total - s small-shank, i large tenor, 1 bass).

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:13 pm

AEK wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:37 am How does the sound and feel of the ET3 "Charlie Loper" compare to a Bach 11C ?

Of course this depends on you and even more (given the variations in Bach mouthpieces) on which 11C you compare to. I have one of each. And - no surprise - they play and sound quite similar. To my ear, from behind the bell, the Marc ET3 sounds very slightly fuller than the 11C, in spite of its lower mass, and may be a bit better in the high range (though this could be my imagination). Though the rims appear similar, the ET3 seems a wee bit more comfortable on my lips. But the real differences, if any, are rather subtle, and are in any case a matter of individual preference.

I'm still happy with my small collection of Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces (5 total - s small-shank, i large tenor, 1 bass).

I have the Charlie Looper, David Steinmeier, Jiggs Whigham, Mic Gilette, Lloyd Ulyate and Ian McDougall Marrcinkiewicz signatures. In the rim they are all 11c-ish and might be copies of "different" 11C's. I would not know that, but they are that close when put one to my lips. The Steinmeier is a bit different. The rim is 11C-ish. It plays good but is significantly shallower. It still gives a good large sound. I could use any of them for replacement. My current mouthpiece is a Yamaha Nils Landgren mouthpiece. The rim there is also very 11c-ish, a tad larger compared to my Bach 11c. The Bach 11C I use for comparison is a VINCENT BACH CORP. I do not measure the differences I just play them and they all sorts under the 11c-ish category (to me)

AEK wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:37 am How does the sound and feel of the ET3 "Charlie Loper" compare to a Bach 11C ?

Edit: I just checked all the signature mouthpieces to see if my opinion lasts, because it was years since I came to the conclusion they were 11c-ish. Yes, to me they still are. Which one is best? To me the Lloyd Ulyate is the one that gave me that definite wow. The Chalie Looper is the second best (to me). It could be something in the L. Ulyate is closer to the Nils Landgren I use daily but to know they need to be measured or checked with tge differen makers.

/Tom

Very useful answers, much appreciated. Cheers.