Snake oil instead of good teaching?

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Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by aasavickas »

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

I was probably the person who “liked” your comment.

The young trombonist was playing a Yam Trudel wasn’t he? 6 and 1/2-sized rim, a little deeper than a Bach. Pretty mainstream. I might try a Bach 6 and a 1/2 or a 5G (or Faxx to save a bit of $) just to rule out the mpc but a lesson with a good teacher might be money better spent.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by timothy42b »

I may have seen that comment.

I may even have said something, not sure. Sometimes I comment, sometimes I refrain from futility.

20 to 1 equipment over embouchure is bad, but if it's the same FB I'm thinking about there are also a number of people who believe more air solves everything, and everybody should put the mouthpiece in the same place. Oh, and every embouchure needs the same size mouthpiece.

I argued for paying attention to copyright law the other day and 95 comments were pretty sure I was wrong.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Elow »

Not saying there’s a magical mouthpiece out there, but when i first started i had troubles with range and went up to my music store for a new mouthpiece and got a denis wick 12cs. I can’t even play on it now, but when i switched from a 6 1/2 al to that, something opened up for me. Maybe i practiced more, but i like to think the mouthpiece helped a little bit. Anyways, now there’s not really a difference. I can rip up to high F on a 5g or a 1g.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Everybody has an opinion, and knows only what they believe.
I don't have time for that, and I'm not on any Facebook groups.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Posaunus »

Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:24 am Everybody has an opinion, and knows only what they believe.
I don't have time for that, and I'm not on any Facebook groups.
:idea:
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by bassbone721 »

I've found this out after spending many hours a day on my horn during quarantine. The mouthpiece does have a part in the upper register, but it definitely comes down to the embouchure and the air.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by hornbuilder »

Back in the day, before all the small custom makers that we have today, and the internet, we bought what our teachers told us to buy, and learned how to play it. If you had problems, it came down to spending time in the practice room and working the issue out.

Today, we have companies claiming that they can fix all of your playing issues by customizing and "fitting" you to your ideal setup. (On that day, to suit your playing abilities at that time)

So, instead of facing the hard truth that more often than not it is the player that needs to develop and/or sort out the issues, many will reach for a different instrument component to solve the issues they're experiencing. Often times turning to some fairly extreme options to achieve the desired results. This approach may help to overcome the problem in the short term, but how will that equipment choice work out in 6 months, a year, or 6 years?

Having said that, I would very much agree with the idea of having the student see someone (Doug Elliott would be the obvious first choice here) to help diagnose and correct any issues.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Burgerbob »

That student was very young, fwiw.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Thrawn22 »

Speaking from personal experience. When i left HS, my range hit a wall about high A or Bb. The music i played didn't help push me beyond that nor did the routine i had didn't address that either. When i started reading third parts that went higher than my first parts in HS i decided to look at different approaches to playing and practiced more. It also helped to finally have experienced trombone players help me out for once.

I'm sure doubling tuba, baritone and bassbone didn't help.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by tbonesullivan »

There are so many sayings about opinions. The tech who fixes my tube guitar amplifiers when they need help said "A lot of information on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it, nothing."

It's like if you really want to know which instrument brands require the least fixing and maintenance, probably best to ask a repair tech.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by harrisonreed »

I will say that my mouthpiece size had been holding me back. I couldn't play well into the upper register, and began having jaw pain from trying different approaches.

I was given an Alessi mouthpiece (DE 106 size) as a kind of sympathy/gag gift and I really liked the initial sound I got on it. It also allowed me to manipulate my embouchure more within the cup width, and gave me more "wiggle room".

THEN I was able to fix my embouchure, and the upper register is no problem. This was after maybe 15 years of thinking it was my embouchure and lack of skill.

In my case, I really wish that a teacher hadn't been telling me that I could eventually figure out how to maneuver my embouchure and that everyone should play a 5G. You need both approaches, just like in running. Your coach says run with good form to increase endurance and reduce injury, but only after you find a shoe that fits first.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Doubler »

Usually if the equipment is reasonably standard/mainstream, problems playing are related to the player. If a problem won't resolve after careful, analytical practice, an equipment change may make the desired improvement. It's a lot quicker and easier to plug in a different mouthpiece in hopes of fixing a problem, but putting in the time and effort to overcome the difficulty may be the proper solution. If the effort does not produce the desired results, and the effort is well-directed and not faulty, equipment change can make the difference.

It's important for the mouthpiece to fit the face and complement the player's technique. For example, many years ago I had an experience similar to that of harrisonreed. I was having problems with attacks; they weren't clean enough, and perhaps a year and a half to two years of addressing this shortcoming with exercises weren't helping. I had been using the mouthpiece recommended by my teacher, and we were both frustrated at my lack of success. Against my teacher's advice I switched to a different, more mainstream mouthpiece, and my problem with attacks was instantly and permanently resolved. The rim size and shape made the difference.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Basbasun »

Bach5G wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:34 pm All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?
Good question!!!!
There is not. There are so many fantastic players out there, some of them play with a really wierd embouchure, as it looks. What we can se is the mpc place on the face as it looks from the outside.
Some players do very good on small mpc, others play on giant mpc, and do it very good.
Many players do play on mpc that is totally wrong for them, just because they "that is a good mpc" so I just have to practis more to get the mpc to work for me. I say it is the same with embouchure, some players try to play with a embouchure that does not work for them. Of course you can not tell somebody anythong about wath mpc or how the embouchure should work without se and hear the person in question. Any tip like that is snake oil.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by harrisonreed »

Bach5G wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:34 pm All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?
No consensus. Only people who have figured it out to look to, and most of them can't explain it, at least beyond what they perceive is going on.

I certainly haven't figured it out.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

This was Doug Yeo on his experience in the fMRI;

https://thelasttrombone.com/2017/08/22/ ... y-project/

Eli Epstein’s work is also interesting:




This doesn’t show how the lips move, or mpc placement. Maybe a good teacher using a cutaway or a transparent mpc could nail this down where someone is curious or is having problems.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by harrisonreed »

aasavickas wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:59 am Having a mouthpiece that matches/works with a person's face is important as is having a mouthpiece that works well with the horn.

Makes sense that a horrible mismatch of face to mouthpiece or mouthpiece to horn could cause problems. But it seems to me unless a person's has a bizarre face, so long as you are playing equipment in the ballpark of normal for that idiom, it is probably a chop/practice issue.

There is a great video of a French horn player playing in an MRI. I think most folks would be surprised how much of the playing happens in the mouth with the tongue and other oral cavity changes. All those firm corners, point your chin, and blow from your diaphram folks might be surprised.

Check it out below.

:weep: my face is ugly but I don't think it's bizarre. I honestly can't play on anything remotely close to a 5G without my range being reduced in both directions (I lose over an octave total) and jaw pain. I have an underbite, maybe that's my issue.

FWIW, the horn player is Sarah Willis, one of the most enthusiastic and charismatic people I know of when it comes to promoting classical music. If people here have not seen her videos, the horn hangouts, they should check them out! She plays low horn in the BERLIN PHIL! :amazed:
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Savio »

10 years ago I became a member of a trombone forum. I thought all the advice I received was like being in heaven. That these were mostly professional or very good musicians who gave their advice. That, of course, is not the case. I was blue-eyed and did not understand much. Although I had been a teacher for many years. Not at a high level but still.

When it comes to equipment, work, practice, talent, etc., I experience that it is a blissful mix of these that applies. But it all depends on the person concerned. One simply can not give advice to people who ask random questions on the internet without knowing the whole background. Also do not give advice to people who refer to situations where we do not know the story behind. We see that questions about equipment give about as many answers as there are members. In fact, everyone can be right and wrong. In fact, we do not know enough.

Back to the topic of original post.
Equipment is important, but in my eyes not a deciding factor. I think the will and desire to achieve something is the most important thing. And perseverance and strength to accomplish the most important thing.

What is the saying, Distress teaches naked woman to spin.

That said "im not naked" :wink: :D
I have a drawer with many mouthpieces ....
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Interesting saying "Distress teaches naked woman to spin"

I'm really not sure what that means!
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by BGuttman »

Savio wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:34 pm ...

What is the saying, Distress teaches naked woman to spin.
...

Leif
Never heard that one before. Is that a Norwegian saying? :idk:

Back on topic: Bad equipment is almost always a hindrance. The difference between a competent horn and a great horn is probably lost on a beginner.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Savio »

I blame Google translate :cool:
Maybe it's woman without clothes make her know how to spin new clothes? :D :roll:
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by CalgaryTbone »

The problem with giving advice about these things is that you need more information than what can be relayed in a single email post to really determine what's wrong.

Some years ago, I took on a jr. high euphonium player as a student. It was a favour to a colleague (the family were neighbors of a friend from the orchestra). I don't usually do a lot of teaching in that age group, and my instincts were to work with him on slurs, etc. and teaching him to be able to sing some intervals to help his non-existent high range. He was very frustrated that he was falling behind the other kids - his main goal was to just catch up with them.

After a couple of lessons, I took a look at his horn - a funky Amati with a Euro/medium shank receiver. Then I looked at the mouthpiece - it was Amati's version of a 3G. I grabbed a medium shank mouthpiece from my collection, and then discovered that the horn was absolutely terrible. Horribly out of tune with itself, and some partials/notes actually were almost impossible to make sound.

I got the school to get him a different horn - probably a student model Yamaha with the stock mouthpiece, and 90% of his issues were gone. A 3G and a bad instrument were not good choices for a jr. high beginner, and no amount of practicing and proper use of the air was going to solve that.

Most of the time, it's a practice and proper technique issue, but it is worth checking out the equipment to make sure that it's in playable condition, and isn't too far out of the mainstream for the age and level of the student.

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Savio »

Nah I give it up, of course equipment is important. I teach small children and know they probably should have better quality than anyone to keep learning and keep interest. Another aspect of internet, misunderstanding.....I told the same as Jim and Bguttman, but added the words work, practice, everyone is unique, and don't listen all advice on internet. ..............and don't believe all either. Well, ....sorry my English.....it's your forum! Goodbye.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by ArbanRubank »

From my experience, basically decent equipment is important to give a good impression and start. I was started - as a child - on a crapped-out horn with a mouthpiece that had a lot of plating worn off. It had a terrible taste. The horn was a .490 bore with a 7" bell and a 12c mouthpiece. I think a lot of pros might even have been out of their comfort zone on it. Maybe if I had a decent Conn Director or the like and a mouthpiece in better condition back then, it could have made enough of a difference.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Burgerbob »

Again... the teacher of this student (which is a young, middle school student) is a professional, holding a principal and 2nd position with two orchestras. He's a good player. To assume he hasn't tried working on "proper technique" is a bit insulting, IMO.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by BGuttman »

I've known a number of excellent players who weren't good teachers. I've also known great players who were excellent teachers for advanced players but were awful with beginners.

I would assume the teacher takes a moment to try the student's horn to make sure it isn't the problem. After that you need to work on basics. You can't run before you walk.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by aasavickas »

Exactly. what BGuttman said seems right to me.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

A young middle school player with problems around high A?

The phrase “Rome wasn’t built in a day” comes to mind.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Burgerbob »

aasavickas wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:40 pm Exactly. what BGuttman said seems right to me.
Still... seems a bit harsh to come here and complain about it.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by BGuttman »

I have to say when I was in Middle School (it was called Junior High School back then) I couldn't hit a high A (3 lines above the bass staff) either. I was able to play high Bb above it in High School, and I was the only trombone with that capability then. Don't want to brag, but maybe the kid is doing fine.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

The Trudel is a bit of an odd piece. 6 and a 1/2-ish but a deep cup. Maybe not the best choice for a 14-15 year who is still working on his range?
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Basbasun »

This post was answering a now delited post, so it goes the same way.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Basbasun »

Maybe this discousion give us some more understanding.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by timothy42b »

BGuttman wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:30 pm I've known a number of excellent players who weren't good teachers. I've also known great players who were excellent teachers for advanced players but were awful with beginners.
I think sometimes it's not so much that the teacher is bad, but that there is a mismatch between the learning style and teaching style.

If you're an "inner tennis" type learner and have a more analytical style teacher, there may be communication problems.

But the reverse, if you're a more analytical style learner, an inner tennis goal oriented teacher may not work at all. You'll never know what he/she wants.

My belief is that learning styles are mostly hardwired, but teaching styles can be customized to the student. Not everybody agrees.

My daughter came home from her beginner band class in middle school with an assignment to practice, and dutifully sat down to practice the trumpet. She was frustrated, on the edge of tears and soon way past. she said "daddy how do I play that note?" It was second line G. I said finger it open. No, how do I play it? Well it's this pitch (daddy sings concert F) No how do I make that note come out? It took me a while to realize she did not understand the process between thinking the note and playing it. How exactly does that happen? And I couldn't tell her, I didn't understand what she was asking. I didn't understand the gap between something I'd done for almost 40 years and something she'd never done. (I left for a meeting and when I returned both kids informed me: Daddy we broke the piano, and your tuner doesn't work on trumpet. Bb treble strikes again!)
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by aasavickas »

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

Basbasun wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:27 am I know very many professional trombonists who had problems with high A at 16 years of age. Playing on a TRudel mpc would not be a good idea in that case. Maybe latter.
When I was about to enter my 4th year of uni I decided I wanted to play in the orch. So I sold my 2B and bought a 42B that came with a 6 and 1/2 AL. I had been using a 12C up until that point. It took time to make the transition. I succeeded in the audition and spent a couple of terms playing 2nd next to M Crewe. I recall being happy cleanly hitting a high A in the Galliard I did for my jury the following spring.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by aasavickas »

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

Re: the original post in this thread, I recall the original FB post. There was very little discussion of playing fundamentals but there was post after post of what seemed like hs kids listing increasingly expensive mpcs, as if the problem could be solved by throwing money at it. If Alessi plays Griego, you should play Griego. But that’s FB. One shouldn’t be surprised.

“But a 15 year old solid player probably can play on larger professional equipment presuming they are not tiny and are healthy.” Sure, but it might take time and the right kind of practicing. As I said, Rome wasn’t built in a day.

“Clearly she is an excellent player but the exact way she plays is not right for everybody and a french horn embouchure is not the same as a trombone embouchure.”

Check out the Doug Yeo article and/or follow up the links in that article to see what else the Max Planck brass research guys have been up to since 2017. I think the fundamentals of brass playing are pretty similar across the various instruments.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by aasavickas »

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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by timothy42b »

Bach5G wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:55 am Check out the Doug Yeo article and/or follow up the links in that article to see what else the Max Planck brass research guys have been up to since 2017. I think the fundamentals of brass playing are pretty similar across the various instruments.
I'd like to see Dave Wilken's embouchure type videos enhanced with the MRI stuff. that could be enlightening.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

You know there are kids on a G-A 1C because that’s what Joe plays. Or who will tell you that the original GBs are superior to his current NY series and way better than Christan’s work. And on and on.

$220 US (~$300 CDN) is a fair chunk of change for a mpc.

And I’m as much of a mpc slut as anybody. I’m currently a little frustrated because, due to the Canada-US border being closed, I’m cut off.

“I'd like to see Dave Wilken's embouchure type videos enhanced with the MRI stuff. that could be enlightening.”

Future ITA panel discussion: Dave, Doug, Doug, and someone from the Planck brass project.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by BGuttman »

Bach5G wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:27 am You know there are kids on a G-A 1C because that’s what Joe plays. Or who will tell you that the original GBs are superior to his current NY series and way better than Christan’s work. And on and on.

...
Sometimes an ignorant teacher can be a big part of the problem. We had a post on the old TTF where a trumpet playing BD concluded that since a 1C is a good trumpet mouthpiece, a 1G must be a good trombone mouthpiece. Poor kids... :eek:
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by Bach5G »

Sometimes an ignorant teacher can be a big part of the problem. We had a post on the old TTF where a trumpet playing BD concluded that since a 1C is a good trumpet mouthpiece, a 1G must be a good trombone mouthpiece. Poor kids... :eek:
Reminds me of what my guitar tech told me one day. She said: You know Rod, there are a lot of cowboys out there.
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by CalgaryTbone »

I'm pretty sure that even after we get back to teaching lessons in person, we won't be trying the student's horn for quite a while. The days of casually playing a few licks on another person's instrument are gone, at least for now.

Jim Scott
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BrianJohnston
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Re: Snake oil instead of good teaching?

Post by BrianJohnston »

Thanks for digging up dirt on me, I always enjoy stumbling upon a bashing without knowing about it :wink:

To give you more information, my student has been studying with me for about four years, and has just finished 8th grade. He is principal trombone of the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra for the 2nd year, and many other regional ensembles around town. He's doing more than ok IMO, i'm just looking for a way to give him confidence/ high-range boost, rather than over-drilling him with high range exercise to lower his self-esteem. I've been working on his high range since the beginning, which has improved nearly a 5th since the first lesson...

What is frustrating is you're questioning my teaching skills based on a question I posted on Trombone Equipment yet you don't know who I am. Isn't that a little closed-minded?

To quote you above: "I commented that it was probably not an equipment issue but an embouchure one and gave some ideas and said if the teacher was not comfortable that he should have the student get a lesson with an embouchure expert and gave the guys name. The OP said it was not a chop issue rather an equipment one."

This is actually what I wrote in response: "Don't think it's an embouchure issue, but i'll check this advice if switching smaller doesn't work." Looks like you twisted the truth: https://www.facebook.com/groups/9628378 ... SEARCH_BOX

I was totally open to your ideas, I just think that maybe his current mouthpiece is working against him.

I'll repeat myself as well: I'll check your advice if the mouthpiece doesn't help the way I believe it might.

I posted on that forum to receive advice, not to get ripped on. Thanks... :x
Fort Wayne Philharmonic
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