TromboneChat

Soon I will be in possession of my first bass trombone, a Conn 72H and I’m wondering where to start with mouthpiece size. My goal is to be able to double in a big band and play some jazz lower down. I don’t need a huge, super loud sound, more in the direction of clean articulations.

Any advice appreciated,

John

You say "double in a big band". What are you playing on now? What works for others may not work for you. That said, 1 1/2G is the starting point for many.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:18 pm You say "double in a big band". What are you playing on now? What works for others may not work for you. That said, 1 1/2G is the starting point for many.

Actually what I meant was that I’m a tenor player who occasionally plays bass in some of the local big bands. That’s what’s needed the most and I really enjoy playing the bass parts.

I'd go with a 2g. Doesn't feel like a toilet bowl for someone just learning bass. After a few months of playing a bass I would consider moving to a larger mouthpiece. That said, a 2g is definitely a bass trombone sized mouthpiece.

Faxx 1 1/2G

I would also go with a Faxx 1 1/2G. Relatively Cheap. Very consistent. Great mouthpiece. It doesn't have the wide open throat that some mouthpieces do, like the Yamaha 59 and 58, which are around the same size. I found that really helped when starting out.

And it may be the ONLY mouthpiece you ever need for bass trombone.

johntarr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:18 pm You say "double in a big band". What are you playing on now? What works for others may not work for you. That said, 1 1/2G is the starting point for many.

Actually what I meant was that I’m a tenor player who occasionally plays bass in some of the local big bands. That’s what’s needed the most and I really enjoy playing the bass parts.

Yep, that is what I do too. I was asking what kind of tenor and what size mouthpiece you are playing on now. I play a Doug Elliott mp similar to a Bach 5 on my .481/.491 dual bore and my .508 bore small bore tenors , Bach 5G Megatone on my .547 tenor, Bach 1.5 Megatone on my bass. That would not work for most people, but it does for me. The Faxx mentioned above would be a good start. If you play a smaller mp on your tenor, maybe the Bach 2 or its equivalent would be a better fit. Best solution is to find bass players nearby willing to loan you different mouthpieces.

I recommend Doug Elliott mouthpieces without hesitation. Particularly if you can discuss/play on Skype for him to recommend a good starting point. Very liberal return policy and all around great guy to work with. Correct me if I am wrong but won't you need the vintage sized Conn shank for the best fit? Doug can do that for sure. Spend once and don't get GAS. Trust me I go through boughts of GAS myself and its hard to stop.

I tried a lot of different mouthpieces for my 72H. I found it liked the Bach 1 1/2G the best. I had one converted to Remington shank by Bob Reeves.

I am also primarily a tenor player (lead and 2nd) in the big bands I play in but am called on to play bass occasionally. For the little time that I do play bass, and the sometimes limited preparation I have, I've found more success with a Yamaha 58. A lot of forum members here hipped me to that. The thread I had going is located at - https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7907

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:16 pm I recommend Doug Elliott mouthpieces without hesitation. Particularly if you can discuss/play on Skype for him to recommend a good starting point. Very liberal return policy and all around great guy to work with. Correct me if I am wrong but won't you need the vintage sized Conn shank for the best fit? Doug can do that for sure. Spend once and don't get GAS. Trust me I go through boughts of GAS myself and its hard to stop.

What he said. I never would have tried a mouthpiece as large as a 5 for my tenor without Doug's advice. He was dead on.

My experience with the 72H which I have owned since 1961:
Everything posted above is correct but it didn't all work for me.
The 72H came with a Remington MP which is about the same size as a 5G. That was the wrong MP for the horn. I don't know why they didn't ship a 3B which is a little smaller than a 1-1/2G. You might find Conn 3B which will have a Remington shank but it will be expensive and probably not worth the trouble.
I was at a state festival in 1962 when a guy named Thomas Beversdorf tapped me on the shoulder and told me I needed to get a 2G. I did and played it for many years. I never noticed that it didn't fit just right. I did find that I had difficulty accenting notes from E flat down. I had a reasonably good high range with the 2G.
As life goes on, I put the horn away for many years. When I started playing again i got a small bore and stuck pretty much with that. I would occasionally pull the 72H out if I had a part that required lower notes or a trigger.
By then everyone had an electronic tuner. Using this instead of just tuning one note I found that the partials were off significantly. High F was extremely sharp and other notes didn't line up either. Also, with modern technology like dial-up internet, I discovered that the Conn shank was different so I ordered a Conn George Roberts MP. I thought all Conn shanks were the same. Obviously this isn't correct. The GR MP is a little larger than a 1-1/2G and features a shorter than normal shank which puts the bowl of the MP closer to the receiver. This is exactly what you don't want as the Remington shank is actually longer than a standard shank. However miracles do happen and after pulling the tuning slide quite a bit; it actually played in tune and the partials lined up. Also, I could now play from E down with a reasonable accent.
Both my Mt Vernon 2G and my GR MP's contact the leadpipe at the tip rather than on the shoulder and thus there is a very slight wobble. If you don't know to look for it you will not notice it. Apparently other 72H"s must have a different leadpipe as others have noted a significant wobble. I suspect that trimming about 1/16 inch off the end of either MP would allow a better fit but I have not tried that.
My first suggestion is that you just try a few large shank MP"s and see how they fit since neither if your horns utilize a large shank MP. If you are getting an unacceptable wobble your options are somewhat limited as you will need a Remington style shank. If you are fortunate enough to have a horn which will tolerate a standard shank, the field is wide open. I would suggest the Faxx 1-1/2G as a starter simply because it is cheap. I have Faxx 5G and 4G MP's and have found them to be well made. If I had a $35 MP I wouldn't mind butchering the shank. If the wobble is unacceptable your options are to find a MP with a Remington shank or have the leadpipe pulled and replaced with on that will accept a standard shank. If that was my choice, I wold have Doug send me the pieces approximate the size of a 1-1/2G or whatever size you desire. Also, if you have a option I would suggest a deeper cup as this seems to provide better alignment of the partials.
Please be sure to let us know what you decide.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:16 pm I recommend Doug Elliott mouthpieces without hesitation. Particularly if you can discuss/play on Skype for him to recommend a good starting point. Very liberal return policy and all around great guy to work with. Correct me if I am wrong but won't you need the vintage sized Conn shank for the best fit? Doug can do that for sure. Spend once and don't get GAS. Trust me I go through boughts of GAS myself and its hard to stop.

GAS? Is that “gear acquisition syndrome”? I’m trying to weed things out so I definitely don’t want to slip into GAS mode.

But seriously, I’m going to try the DE mouthpiece route. I’ve seen so many positive comments about him and I also feel that I need some guidance in the mouthpiece department. Now the question for me is: do I try and cover my other instruments with his system (and invest a fair bit) or keep with what I have and just use his set up for the bass?

Just yesterday, I tried an old 6.5 AL and felt that it was more comfortable and warmed up the sound a bit without being more difficult in the high register. This was the point where I realized I need help so as not to slip into GAS mode.

Many thanks to all for your advice,

John

johntarr wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 am But seriously, I’m going to try the DE mouthpiece route. I’ve seen so many positive comments about him and I also feel that I need some guidance in the mouthpiece department. Now the question for me is: do I try and cover my other instruments with his system (and invest a fair bit) or keep with what I have and just use his set up for the bass?

Many thanks to all for your advice,

John

Doug directed me to a Bach 5 on my small bore tenors which are my primary horns these days. I got his rim/cup/combo just because. As above, I still use regular Bach gear on my large bore tenor and my bass.

johntarr wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 am ...

But seriously, I’m going to try the DE mouthpiece route. I’ve seen so many positive comments about him and I also feel that I need some guidance in the mouthpiece department. Now the question for me is: do I try and cover my other instruments with his system (and invest a fair bit) or keep with what I have and just use his set up for the bass?

Just yesterday, I tried an old 6.5 AL and felt that it was more comfortable and warmed up the sound a bit without being more difficult in the high register. This was the point where I realized I need help so as not to slip into GAS mode.

Many thanks to all for your advice,

John

For years I used a Doug Elliott setup on my bass and Denis Wick mouthpieces on all my other trombones. You can certainly do it if it works for you. Eventually I got a Doug Elliott setup for the tenors, but I still sometimes use the Wick.

Yep, that is what I do too. I was asking what kind of tenor and what size mouthpiece you are playing on now. I play a Doug Elliott mp similar to a Bach 5 on my .481/.491 dual bore and my .508 bore small bore tenors , Bach 5G Megatone on my .547 tenor, Bach 1.5 Megatone on my bass. That would not work for most people, but it does for me. The Faxx mentioned above would be a good start. If you play a smaller mp on your tenor, maybe the Bach 2 or its equivalent would be a better fit. Best solution is to find bass players nearby willing to loan you different mouthpieces.

I’ve been using an AR Resonance 25.1 65 V+ on my Rath R3. Just to test, I dug up a 6.5 AL and immediately found it to be warmer, fuller and just more comfortable some how. Now I’m going back and forth a bit.

A 5G rim for everything? Sounds great but I wonder if it would work for me. I was thinking of the opposite, would it be possible to use a 6.5 rim for everything, including the bass?

johntarr wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:21 pmwould it be possible to use a 6.5 rim for everything, including the bass?

No. I tried to use a tenor rim with bass, and it doesn't work for what you want a bass for. I tried it with a much larger rim than a 6.5, and it still didn't work.

Yeah, you need a bass trombone mouthpiece for a bass trombone. 3G size is borderline. I would say you need at least a 2G / Schilke 58 / Yamaha 58 , Denis Wick 2AL.

I've found that a Marcinckiewicz GR model-- now sold as their version of the 1 1/2G is a great mp. It's a tad deeper than the Bach of that number. Their Model 3 has the exact same sized rim, but is a bit shallower with a tighter backbore. It makes a great mp to start on-- that's what I did when I got my bass bone-- and for those times when the bass bone part in the big band I play in goes up into the upper register for an extended time. There area couple of threads on the GR bass bone mp here on the forum.

Here's a link to Mark's website: https://www.marcinkiewicz.com/mouthpiec ... /standard/

It is somtimes said here in TC : the same rim for all trombones. But that is only for diffent size of tenor trombones and alto. Bass trombone is another animal. Smallest is 3G, to small for most players in a bigband, try 2G or better 1 1/2G.

There is one bass trombone that doesn't fit the standard. That's the G Bass as was used in England. Generally rather small bore and works best with something between a Bach 4 size and a Bach 6.5 size. Don't try to use one with anything but very small bore trombones on the upper parts; doesn't really blend with modern instruments.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:03 am It is somtimes said here in TC : the same rim for all trombones. But that is only for diffent size of tenor trombones and alto. Bass trombone is another animal. Smallest is 3G, to small for most players in a bigband, try 2G or better 1 1/2G.

I agree. My experience is it also has to do with style. For classical playing on a .547 .525 .508 or .500 I can use the same rim Hammond 12. It can be used with great advantage with different cups M, ML, MXL, L or XL and then gives a classical sound with all but for jazz and first part I need something smaller both because of sound, because that rim us tiresome to play high on for hours. I then scale down and use Bach 11C-ish equipment Bach 6 3/4 C. Alto also needs a smaller mouthpiece. I use a Bach 12E. Bass can be 2G, Bach 1 1/4-ish or bigger.

/Tom

This has been really helpful and interesting, thanks to all your contributions!

I will most likely go with a real bass trombone mouthpiece from Doug Elliott and a smaller rim for for my tenor and alto.

I have had good luck with the Marcinkievicz 3 as a doubling mpc. It's about the size of a 2G and has pretty good response for me.

Either you'll find a mpc that you'll like and may have to change to fit the shank, or you'll have to change the leadpipe to the mpc you'll have to find after you change the pipe.

When i had my 72H (which i wouldn't mind tracking down and buying back) i put a stock Bach 50 pipe in it and used a kanstul George Roberts mpc. It was a fantastic combination.

Don't let the fact you're doubling convince you that you need a smaller mpc. I was using a 2G before the kanstul GR mpc. I was suprised the Kanstul was a 1 1/4 mpc. I picked the kanstul because it sounded good with that 72H.

The doug Elliott, schilke and symington mouthpieces have longer shanks which may fit better if you choose to keep your leadpipe. I use a Griego CS1 for legit and a Symington 1 1/2 for bigband and they sound great in my 71H with the Bach 50 pipe.


My 2 pesos