Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

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thetuningslide
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Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by thetuningslide » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 pm

Let me start by saying I'm sure this has been discussed before, although after a good half hour of dedicated searching I couldn't find anything, so I've come to y'all. If there's a good article or thread (s) on this please direct me to said articles or threads.

Now to the question:

I'm a college student, and my focus instrument is technically tenor trombone. I play all my solos and juries on tenor, and consequently it's by far the instrument that I bring to my lessons on the majority. I play with a Hammond 12ml for this stuff, and a wick 5abl in ensembles. However in all my ensembles, I play bass trombone on a Bach 1.5g. As a result, I'm usually playing on both instruments daily, and occasionally switching between during my daily practice sessions. I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that. This makes me wonder, what dangers do I face with switching face setups so frequently? Am I stunting my range/flexibility growth as a young student? Is this something that "works if it works for me"? Am I thinking about all this too much? My teacher Jaime Morales-Matos encourages my flexibility in pursuing both instruments, I'm just curious as to what your opinions are as a mass of people that have undoubtedly experienced this thoroughly. Thanks a ton guys.

-Austin

Also, I believe I read it in a Doug Yeo article recently that bass bone has the 2nd highest flow rate in an orchestra behind flute (including tuba)? Some of these excerpts make me believe it!
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:47 pm

I don't have any idea how this affects you as a student. All I know is my own experience.

By switching often, my range on either isn't as good as it could be if I focused on one. But I do get a greater variety of opportunities.

If you're looking for Joe Alessi's job, I'd recommend stop doubling and focus. If you want to be a teacher or a well rounded freelance, keep doubling.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:51 pm

There's danger in it if you are playing them badly, sure. And having a split focus will always mean you're not putting the full time into one instrument.

But if you're playing with good habits and making good sounds on each, and you're ok with not having a laser focus on one instrument, then it's fine.

I find myself, as a doubler for basically as long as I've played seriously, to be a bit of an oddball in the professional world... lots of people play only 1 thing their entire lives until they necessarily have to double later, and have to spend a bunch of time learning something new at an older age. Perhaps doing it from earlier is an advantage, I'm not sure.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by AndrewMeronek » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:54 pm

There are plenty of examples of brass players who double and are top-notch players on every instrument they play on. I think that people who see concerns about range/tone/etc. with doubling most often simply don't practice their doubles the way they should if they want to really make use of the double. Less often, there really is some physical reason preventing them from doubling effectively, and that is usually solved by a lesson or two with an embouchure expert.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by AndrewMeronek » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Another thought: I double myself without issues (aside from dedicating time to practicing) but from what I've seen of myself and friends, the main reason doubling doesn't happen more isn't fear from technique and stuff like that, but simple economics: paying for instruments. I'd love to be able to afford to buy a good tuba, euphonium, baritone, alto horn, etc.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Bach5G » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:16 pm

I’ve wondered about any association between using multiple mpcs and focal dystonia of the embouchure muscles.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by thetuningslide » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:47 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:47 pm
If you're looking for Joe Alessi's job, I'd recommend stop doubling and focus. If you want to be a teacher or a well rounded freelance, keep doubling.
I love this. I'm definitely gunning to be a teacher and freelancer. My dream is to teach kids music.
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:51 pm
There's danger in it if you are playing them badly, sure. And having a split focus will always mean you're not putting the full time into one instrument.

But if you're playing with good habits and making good sounds on each, and you're ok with not having a laser focus on one instrument, then it's fine.

I find myself, as a doubler for basically as long as I've played seriously, to be a bit of an oddball in the professional world... lots of people play only 1 thing their entire lives until they necessarily have to double later, and have to spend a bunch of time learning something new at an older age. Perhaps doing it from earlier is an advantage, I'm not sure.
That's exactly my teacher's idea behind it, to become a more "useful" trombonist by being well versed in both tenor and bass bone.
AndrewMeronek wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:54 pm
There are plenty of examples of brass players who double and are top-notch players on every instrument they play on. I think that people who see concerns about range/tone/etc. with doubling most often simply don't practice their doubles the way they should if they want to really make use of the double. Less often, there really is some physical reason preventing them from doubling effectively, and that is usually solved by a lesson or two with an embouchure expert.
Very interesting. I will be sure to have a conversation at the DE table at Midwest this year about playing on 2 quite contrasting mpc sizes regularly.
AndrewMeronek wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm
Another thought: I double myself without issues (aside from dedicating time to practicing) but from what I've seen of myself and friends, the main reason doubling doesn't happen more isn't fear from technique and stuff like that, but simple economics: paying for instruments. I'd love to be able to afford to buy a good tuba, euphonium, baritone, alto horn, etc.
For sure a concern I face. I'm playing on my own Wessex bass mainly, however the school owns a new dependent Bach 50 and an older Bach 50 with hagmanns so I have a taste of the "good life", whatever that entails...
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Doubler » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:56 pm

IMO practicing enough to stay competent on each instrument should keep you in pretty good shape. The downside is endurance; at what point do you overextend yourself by increasing your playing time each day?
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by GMB » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:00 pm

It's hard to say, but if you're mature enough to avoid bad habits I don't think there are any inherent dangers. About a year ago I switched solely to bass for about 6 months. Playing tenor after that was very weird (and very bad). Now I can play both well and don't even have a problem switching during the same practice session, which is to say I've gotten a good feel for both mouthpieces. Obviously not as well as if I just focused on one, but I'm more sure every day that that's because of the time issue rather than changing mpc size. My range doesn't suffer and I think my endurance on both has only increased just because of how much I've been playing and practicing this year... but my double-trigger technique would obviously be better if I spent more time on it rather than playing/practicing tenor as well. I play a Bach 4G on tenor and Doug Yeo Signature on bass (though started on a Wick 0AL which is about a 1.25g diameter).
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:07 pm

A 1.5G sized rim is not unheard of on tenor...
If you're already planning on talking to Doug... You should try a 1.5g sized rim on a tenor cup!
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Kdanielsen » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:12 pm

This stopped being an issue for me when my embouchure formation became independent of the rim. I make my embouchure, anchor in the same place every time (regardless of rim size), and just play (in that order).

A lot of people put the rim on their face, THEN form their embouchure. If youre stretching your lips against the edges of the rim or pressing a lot, this is you.

I suppose this is what the freebuzzing crowd is talking about, but ive never found much use in doing it without having the rim in place once the air starts flowing.

Ive found that there are few things as beneficial to my playing as doubling on alto, other tenors, bass, euph, and others.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:25 pm

There are already a lot of good and valuable comments here. See you at MidWest.

As Kris said in the previous comment, when your embouchure formation becomes independent of the rim, doubling is less of a problem and can be beneficial.
If you're doing everything correctly for your particular face. That's really what's important.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by thetuningslide » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:21 pm

Looking forward to Midwest. Great idea, Harrison. I'll definitely give it a try next week.
Kdanielsen wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:12 pm
This stopped being an issue for me when my embouchure formation became independent of the rim. I make my embouchure, anchor in the same place every time (regardless of rim size), and just play (in that order).

A lot of people put the rim on their face, THEN form their embouchure. If youre stretching your lips against the edges of the rim or pressing a lot, this is you.

I suppose this is what the freebuzzing crowd is talking about, but ive never found much use in doing it without having the rim in place once the air starts flowing.

Ive found that there are few things as beneficial to my playing as doubling on alto, other tenors, bass, euph, and others.
My teacher talks about this a ton, "having a set embouchure before the horn touches your face." I do have some practicing to do with this. I've had problems with pressing for years. College has really started to help me with this though.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Kingfan » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:34 pm

Don't overthink it. I played a .547 large bore tenor with a 5G in high school and college. I sometimes got put on bass on big band and was able to hold my own down to a pedal G, and if put on lead could handle that too. I picked up a bass bone in my early 30s, went with a 1.5 G after trying larger pieces. I my primary horn now is a .508 small bore tenor using a DE setup suggested by Doug himself, similar to a Bach 5. I tried smaller mouthpieces, but they didn't work for me, even on my King 2B peashooters, but this one does even playing lead tbone in a big band. I guess I'm lucky in that I can switch from one horn/mp to another with only a small (few minutes?) adjustment period. Doug gives Skype lessons and might be able to suggest combos that will make the switch from one to the other easier for you.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by paulyg » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:59 pm

There are more great bass trombone players doubling on tenors than not... Charlie Vernon, Jim Markey, ect., and they play BIG mouthpieces.

It's all about the time you put in, and the sound in your mind. Knowing how to keep your face from disintegrating helps too.

A 1 1/2G will not kill your tenor chops unless you REALLY try to screw up.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by sirisobhakya » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:42 am

I am by no means a professional, but I have practiced (and played) many mouthpiece in the same gig many times. The size ranges from 11C-ish to Doug Yeo (60-ish), on bass trumpet, baritone, and bass trombone. The transition period is at most 4-5 notes.

As Kdanielsen said, once you can form your embouchure independently from the rim, and perhaps more importantly use your air right with respect to the instrument, doubling is not an issue at all.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by davebb » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:00 am

My theory is that playing a larger than usual mouthpiece can help correct some embouchure deficiencies. A larger mouthpiece forces me to play with firmer corners.
Context : I used to struggle with double buzzing in the lower-middle register playing on a 4g. After a year on a 3G I switched back to the 4g and the problem is gone. I think my ideal mouthpiece is somewhere between the two.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by brassmedic » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:25 am

thetuningslide wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 pm
I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" 8on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that.
Maybe that's the problem, because that doesn't make any sense. If you're playing a different instrument, you need to use the appropriate mouthpiece for that instrument.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by afugate » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:49 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:25 pm
There are already a lot of good and valuable comments here. See you at MidWest.

As Kris said in the previous comment, when your embouchure formation becomes independent of the rim, doubling is less of a problem and can be beneficial.

If you're doing everything correctly for your particular face. That's really what's important.
Not to belabor the point, but Doug is a true expert in this. I wish I had taken a lesson with Doug when I first started back. It's not inexpensive, but it's worth every penny. :good: I wouldn't just "have a conversation with him about doubling..."

--Andy in OKC
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Kdanielsen » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:01 am

brassmedic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:25 am
thetuningslide wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 pm
I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" 8on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that.
Maybe that's the problem, because that doesn't make any sense. If you're playing a different instrument, you need to use the appropriate mouthpiece for that instrument.
Couldn’t agree more!!

I know thats an unpopular opinion, but things go better for me when I use a characteristic mouthpiece on each horn. My thought is that bass trombone is way harder when you try to use a small mouthpiece. The metal is never going to compromise but your chops might. I know there is some way to get a 4 rim with a wicked deep cup etc to work, but it was way easier for me to just use a normal bass mouthpiece (i play a griego alessi 4c on tenor and a griego gp6 on bass).
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by GBP » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am

Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by CalgaryTbone » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:11 am

:good: :good:
GBP wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am
Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Kdanielsen » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:03 am

GBP wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am
Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?
OF COURSE!

I just can't get the one rim thing to work (and thankfully I figured out the other way more or less).
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am

I got the one rim thing to work for all my tenors. So 500 - 547 I play all on one rim (different cups and shanks). But the rim that fits my face for tenor isn't big enough for bass. So I use Elliott 104 rims for tenors, and ~ Bach 1 1/4g on bass.

I used to have a hard time switching from a 6 1/2al to a 5g on tenor, until I got the single rim for tenor It's much easier now to switch from the DE104 to the 1 1/4g.

Yes, obviously if I practiced more, switching would be easier, and there wouldn't be any range sacrifice. But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add. Tenor, bass and euphonium, in my case, and fiddle around on tuba from time to time.

For me it has been helpful to consider myself primarily a tenor player, and base decisions on that. For example, if I'm going to sacrifice something, it's not going to be tenor playing.

I don't believe in a "right" way. There is likely a best way, but you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find it.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Kdanielsen » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:19 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add.
This isn't the case for me. For me, to a certain extent, a trombone is a trombone, rhythm is rhythm, pitch is pitch, tone is tone. Practicing that stuff on one horn makes me better at the others. I'm not saying you don't have to practice all the horns, I'm just saying a lot of it carries over from one to the other. I think the most important things that happen are between your ears, and that's the same always.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:52 pm

Kdanielsen wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:19 pm
hyperbolica wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add.
This isn't the case for me. For me, to a certain extent, a trombone is a trombone, rhythm is rhythm, pitch is pitch, tone is tone. Practicing that stuff on one horn makes me better at the others. I'm not saying you don't have to practice all the horns, I'm just saying a lot of it carries over from one to the other. I think the most important things that happen are between your ears, and that's the same always.
Yeah, I get there's a lot of overlap, but slide and valves are different for euph/tuba, intonation on the trombone and valved instruments is handled very differently, the second valve on the bass is different, the air and moving around down low is different from moving around up high, the role that voice plays is different.

When switching between small tenor and bass, the amount of air you use is a huge difference. Sometimes I have to exhale at the end of a phrase with small tenor where I might need an extra breath with bass. I can't always use just breath to support a lip slur to a pedal note, I might have to use the tongue to help move it along, where I'd never have to do that in a higher range. You eventually learn to compensate for those things, but you have to learn to compensate. They are small differences, but you can't pretend they don't make a difference in how you approach the various instruments.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by johntarr » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:13 am

This is interesting for me because I plan to start adding bass trombone to my collection of instruments. Apparently it’s a topic important enough to warrant writing a book. This book on doubling comes from the offerings of Mountain Peak Music (I’m not promoting it, just mentioning it). Has anyone read the book?
http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search ... y=Doubling

I wonder how performers such as Gunhild Carling, James Morison and Trombone Shorty seem to switch from trumpet to trombone and back so easily.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by thetuningslide » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:25 am

johntarr wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:13 am
This is interesting for me because I plan to start adding bass trombone to my collection of instruments. Apparently it’s a topic important enough to warrant writing a book. This book on doubling comes from the offerings of Mountain Peak Music (I’m not promoting it, just mentioning it). Has anyone read the book?
http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search ... y=Doubling

I wonder how performers such as Gunhild Carling, James Morison and Trombone Shorty seem to switch from trumpet to trombone and back so easily.
Seems like exactly what I'm looking for, provided it's a good book. It's not too expensive, so I'll probably end up picking it up.

I'm very excited to be at Midwest, and hopefully see some of you. Again, I really like the idea of using the same time with different cups/backbores on all my horns. I'll definitely give this a try next week.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by trombonedemon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:09 pm

I've gotten some tissue damage from playing tenor trombone, I would say, stick to one or the other, my tenor trombone days are in the past, I've turn down gigs which required tenor trombone, not worth the physical pain and damage. Some people are great at doubling, some are not, never was able to play trumpet very well.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by tbonesullivan » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:37 pm

It really depends on the person. Some people can switch back between tuba and trombone with ease. Some can't. I'm not sure what the recipe is.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by jph » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:24 pm

trombonedemon wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:09 pm
I've gotten some tissue damage from playing tenor trombone, I would say, stick to one or the other, my tenor trombone days are in the past, I've turn down gigs which required tenor trombone, not worth the physical pain and damage. Some people are great at doubling, some are not, never was able to play trumpet very well.
I am reminded of Ed Kleinhammer's "how long can you be married to two wives" analogies from the very distant past. (Don't answer that one!) I suspect that Ed's philosophy that you'd best make of your mind, tenor or bass, changed over time as he coached many doublers during his career. Harold Van Schaik might have some observations on this one.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:33 pm

If you're getting tissue damage from playing tenor, I'll go out on a limb and say that you're probably not playing it very efficiently or healthily.

Doubling takes time on every instrument that you're trying to keep up. That's why my practice session usually has these ready to go, not just the one that I "want" to play on any given day. It's also why I'm picky with equipment.

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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by griffinben » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:34 pm

What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Thrawn22 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:42 pm

Ive heard from multiple Alex Iles students that hes a proponent of switching horns in the middle of your routine so you can get used to doubling.

I myself have gotten over the doubling hump by A, doing my tenor routine on bass and vice versa, and B, not overthinking it.

In any case, as stated above, your teacher would know better how you should approach this issue.

And in the end it'll take you putting in the practice time to build your strength and focus to make this a non issue.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by jph » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:53 pm

Agree with Burgerbob, and I got a laugh out of the double side-by-side trombone stands...because that's exactly what I do. I can't but help picking up the "other" instrument once I've played the first one. I'm always curious.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by bigbandbone » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:54 pm

griffinben wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:34 pm
What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.
Unfortunately when it comes to applied profs, you usually don't have a choice and have to have x number of credit hours in "applied" to graduate. Hated my applied prof. He really screwed me up.
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by trombonedemon » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:33 pm
If you're getting tissue damage from playing tenor, I'll go out on a limb and say that you're probably not playing it very efficiently or healthily.

Doubling takes time on every instrument that you're trying to keep up. That's why my practice session usually has these ready to go, not just the one that I "want" to play on any given day. It's also why I'm picky with equipment.

Image
That was almost 20 years ago, playing on a mouthpiece that had a way to flat and sharp of an inner rim, plus maybe a bad habit or 2, I've grown since then, and realize tenor was not for me; Ironically I can play higher on bass than tenor go figure, the Bass allows me to use my air more efficiently, its a correct fit for me physically if anything, thanks for the response :good: :cool:
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dukesboneman
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by dukesboneman » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:24 pm

I double all the time . Small bore tenor, Large bore tenor, Bass Trombone , Tuba , Euphonium
I HAVE to practice the horns I need that week to make sure My face and my head are ready for each horn.
Now granted, small horn - Schilke 51B, Large Bore - Schilke 51 or 51C4, Bass - Schilke 59

so I`m keeping (some what) the same rim a lot.
CalgaryTbone
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by CalgaryTbone » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:02 pm

Some people adjust to a different rim easier than others. Some great players like Doug Yeo and Joe Alessi prefer to keep the same rim all or most of the time, while many others use a different rim on each horn. I prefer to keep the same rim on alto, small tenor and large tenor/euphonium and "suck it up" on the rare occasions that I play bass. That's what works for me, but to be fair, I'm not playing bass in the Chicago Symphony or in a Hollywood studio. I like being able to go between my alto and tenor with very little adjustment (maybe an Overture on alto, immediately followed by a concerto accompaniment on tenor). This works for me. I think Jim Nova in Pittsburgh is using a Greg Black #3 rim on all of his horns, from Soprano to Contrabass on his overdubs. No matter what, that is seriously impressive playing!

I usually suggest to my students that they start out with using the same or similar rim if they start doubling on alto or small tenor, and go ahead and change rims if that seems to work better for them. No matter which way you choose to go with this, there is an adjustment that requires practice, and you just have to decide which way requires the least amount of work for you to achieve good results.

Jim Scott
griffinben
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by griffinben » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:25 am

bigbandbone wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:54 pm
griffinben wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:34 pm
What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.
Unfortunately when it comes to applied profs, you usually don't have a choice and have to have x number of credit hours in "applied" to graduate. Hated my applied prof. He really screwed me up.
I'm sorry to hear of your experience. The following comments are for anyone else that might be experiencing the same thing.

Having taught at many universities and colleges I understand the need for credits - but remember as much as you need credits to graduate with a diploma YOU are the person that is supposed to benefiting from the experience.

Everyone has a choice of schools and professors. I would never stay with a teacher I didn't like and I would also recommend a switch for anyone that did not like me as a teacher.

There's always other options.
walldaja
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by walldaja » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:20 pm

I think the title of the post is a clear misnomer "Danger". Perhaps "challenge" would be a better word. It's not the size / shape of the mouthpiece that causes damage but poor or improper technique. I routinely double between trumpet and trombone and I'm sure that there are many others who do. Trying to find the one mouthpiece rim that fits all is a mythological beast.
Dave

Antoine Courtois AC280BO with Christian Lindberg 4CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Bach 1 1/2G / Christian Lindberg 2CL
Getzen 351 Tenor with Yamaha 48
1967 Olds Ambassador with Christian Lindberg 10CL
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
brassmedic
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by brassmedic » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:49 pm

walldaja wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:20 pm
I think the title of the post is a clear misnomer "Danger". Perhaps "challenge" would be a better word. It's not the size / shape of the mouthpiece that causes damage but poor or improper technique. I routinely double between trumpet and trombone and I'm sure that there are many others who do. Trying to find the one mouthpiece rim that fits all is a mythological beast.
I agree. I always found it odd when people say, "That mouthpiece size doesn't work for me". I think most of us started playing in grade school, and you aren't assigned an instrument based on your embouchure type - you either choose an instrument, or the band director assigns you an instrument that is needed in the band. So what if you had chosen french horn instead of trombone? Would you be playing a trombone sized mouthpiece? Of course not. You learn to play that instrument and the mouthpiece that goes with it.

Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.
Brad Close Brass Instruments - brassmedic.com
Posaunus
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Posaunus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:50 pm

brassmedic wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:49 pm
Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.
:good:
Basbasun
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by Basbasun » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:20 am

In short. Many players use the same size rim for alto, small tenor and large tenor, but most often different cups.
But when it comes to dubling tenor/bass trombone it is extremely rare to use the same rim. Maybe some freak can do it, but that is really not working for 99.9 % of humans.
afugate
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by afugate » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:56 am

brassmedic wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:49 pm
Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.
Perhaps that's part of the challenge. I wonder just how many tenor players who double on bass bone have spent enough time listening to bass bone players to develop a truly well-defined mental image of how they themselves want to sound?

--Andy in OKC
brassmedic
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Re: Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

Post by brassmedic » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:43 pm

Knowing what you want to sound like and actually sounding that way are two different things. A lot of doublers are unfortunately looking for the easy way out and don't really care.
Brad Close Brass Instruments - brassmedic.com
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