Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

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Tbarh
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Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Tbarh » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:58 am

I am testing a 1921 model Conn 78H, and i am truly enjoying the beautiful sound.. I am using a Bach 3 which seems to fit the horn very nice when i use it for light orchestra/ classical or as a ballad horn (whatever that is).. I am still looking for a suitable piece playing big band, jazz combo or horn section work.. This has made me speculate on what kind of piece did this horn come with/was played when the horn was new..? Have in mind that 1921 is before modern jazz and the weight of the sound make it more of a "legit" horn... Besides at the time, peashooters seemes to be the norm..
So, what kind of piece did it come with?
Thanks

Trond
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BGuttman
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by BGuttman » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:13 pm

I have 3 old Conn mouthpieces: Pryor, Innes, and Kenfield. Kenfield played bass, so it's probably too big. The Pryor is VERY small. Maybe the Innes. But it has an unusually small shank (they all do).

Mouthpieces from the early 20th Century were a lot more conical than we use now. My Pryor and Innes are.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:50 pm

For some reason I had the impression that the 79h was designed with the 6 1/2 al mouthpiece in mind. But the 78h is just the no-valve version of the 79h, and would pre-date that mouthpiece. The 6 1/2 is a pretty safe modern bet with the 78h, regardless. I think the 1920s version of the 78h probably came with a much smaller mouthpiece.
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JohnL
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by JohnL » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:01 pm

Most likely something like this would have been the standard:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Conn-T ... SwQjxc9aPU

In that era, you would have had some people using the older funnel-shaped designs while others would be going for something more bowl-shaped.
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Matt K
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Matt K » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:03 pm

Picture added since that link won't last very long!
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dukesboneman
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by dukesboneman » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:08 am

I used to have a 1928 78H - beautiful sound
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion
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paulyg
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by paulyg » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:41 pm

Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.
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JohnL
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by JohnL » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:10 am

paulyg wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:41 pm
Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
Tbarh
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Tbarh » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:27 am

JohnL wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:10 am
paulyg wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:41 pm
Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
Exactly!... I have used it with a Bach 3 (small shank/not G) which works fairly well, but i would like to try something a bit more authentic just to get the right feeling of the horn.. I am also borrowing an old 18H "Tait" which come with a Conn "tait" mouthpiece also.. This piece have a fairly deep V-shaped cup and an extremly tight throat... Maybe the 78H came with a slightly larger version of this? :idk:

Trond
Tbarh
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Tbarh » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:26 am

dukesboneman wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:08 am
I used to have a 1928 78H - beautiful sound
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion


In reference to the use of instrument, i am already playing a large tenor and bass, so i would like to use it as a smaller sounding tenor wherever that is appropriate(still beeing able to manage all three horns) .. The bell diameter is 7 1/2" but fairly large for a small shank horn.. While a Bach 3 probably fits the horn better, a 4C give me a sound that fits my use better.. From what i know already, the cups where a bit deeper with more of a V shape, and the throats were smaller (comparing to a Bach).. I am curious to what an original mouthpiece ce would do differently than a Bach small shank..
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BGuttman
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by BGuttman » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:56 am

I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.
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Tbarh
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Tbarh » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 am

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:56 am
I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
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BGuttman
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by BGuttman » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:29 am

Tbarh wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 am
BGuttman wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:56 am
I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
Don't know. I don't own a Tait.
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JohnL
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by JohnL » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:00 pm

Have you looked at the info here?
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpc ... tists.html

If I were you, I'd be looking for a Conn Clarke.
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BGuttman
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by BGuttman » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:06 pm

Is the Clarke old enough? Doug Elliott sent me one to analyze for metal content and I played it on a rehearsal. It felt like a very comfortable 6.5 AL (I don't like the Bach 6.5 AL at all). I seriously thought about asking if I could buy it.
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JohnL
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by JohnL » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:41 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:06 pm
Is the Clarke old enough? Doug Elliott sent me one to analyze for metal content and I played it on a rehearsal. It felt like a very comfortable 6.5 AL (I don't like the Bach 6.5 AL at all). I seriously thought about asking if I could buy it.
Not enough good info on the web to be sure when the Conn Clarke was introduced. Goes back to the mid-1930's, at least.
Tbarh
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Re: Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H

Post by Tbarh » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:48 pm

Do the Conn "Clarke" models differ from the Bach "Clarke" models much?... As i mentioned above; old Conn mouthpieces are usually V shaped with a small throat.. I am thinking that it would be interesting to compare, and maybe have a copy made... Reeves/brassark make one, but i think it is a copy of a Bach.. Anyway, beeing a bass trombone player, i find it easier to cope with a Bach 3 for now, but i am still curious about the original question..
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